According to an article by CNN this evening, another American has been arrested in Brazil for making an obscene gesture to airport security officials.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/02/06/brazil.fingerprinting.ap/index.html

And stupidity marches onward!  

Cheers!



SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) -- In the second incident of its kind in three weeks, an American was arrested Friday after making an obscene gesture while being fingerprinted and photographed at a Brazilian airport as part of the entry requirements for U.S. citizens.

Douglas A. Skolnick, a retired bank worker from New Jersey, raised his middle finger while going through the new entry requirement at the international airport in Foz de Iguacu, a southeastern resort town famous for its massive waterfalls, said Marcos Koren, a federal police spokesman.

Police accused Skolnick of showing contempt to authorities, the same crime in Brazil that netted American Airlines pilot Dale Robin Hersh a 36,000 reals ($12,750) fine on January 14 after he lifted his middle finger while entering Brazil. The airline paid the fine, and Hersh was sent back to the United States.

Skolnick, 55, "did it the same way as the American pilot," Koren said.

He was scheduled to appear before a judge Friday night who will decide how much to fine him and whether to deport him or let him rejoin his tour group of about 80 mostly retired Americans, Koren said. Foz de Iguacu sits at the border with Argentina and Paraguay, about 500 miles (800 kilometers) southeast of Sao Paulo.

Members of Skolnick's tour group, which arrived from Santiago, Chile, on a chartered flight knew that they would be fingerprinted and photographed and were surprised and dismayed with Skolnick's conduct, Koren said.

They were allowed into Brazil, and Skolnick's wife accompanied them to their hotel. The group is expected to depart Brazil on Sunday.

"They'll go and see the falls and the beauties of this region, but he won't know any of the beauty, just the inside of a cell," Koren said.

Brazil imposed the new rules that Americans be fingerprinted and photographed at entry points in response the similar rules in the United States for citizens of Brazil and other countries whose citizens need visas to enter.

What a [email protected]$%^~# IDIOT! First off I think that it's wrong to do such a thing weather it'd be in the us or in you local airport. I hope he gets what he deserves. I like how when arrested they act like the big victim. I was wondering what happened to the American Airlines pilot that was arrested and charged the fines. What he fired?



ARG THESE PEOPLE PISS ME OFF!!

UA777222

Hahaha... Let the Brazilians do with him what they please. I don't want $1 worth of my tax money helping out this moron.

I guess Americans wants to include Brasilian jails on their tours...

What an idiot. I hope they fine him the same as the pilot. Why do people have to behave this way? This guy is absolutely ignorant, a Brazilan jail is no place to be!

...unfortunately it is twits like this that give you guys a bad name.

I guess Americans wants to include Brasilian jails on their tours...

They'll get a different type of rodizio that's for sure.  

Brazils security is so tight understandable so given their world position.. all travel between the two countries should be halted.. this behavior is just going to escalate

Brazils security is so tight understandable so given their world position.. all travel between the two countries should be halted.. this behavior is just going to escalate.

Yes... let's cut off diplomatic relations because two morons can't keep they're middle fingers down.

Chgoflyer,

Brazil counts on us their tourism and their country is beautiful, but that judge showed how disappointed the whole country was with us fingerprinting them when they traveled here, I agree with his decision. I wish Bush would step in and stop this fingerprinting business, this is silly, and there is no reason to put any strain on good relations we have had with Brazil, these two idiots really pulled boners, I think they should both be kicked out and barred from Brazil. It is so stupid to do something as infantile as hanging someone the bird when all they are doing is a very time consuming and probably boring task. IDIOTS!!

I guess Americans wants to include Brasilian jails on their tours...

That should read: I guess Brazil wants Americans to visit Brazilian jails on their tours.

Brazil is being extrmely arrogant with their policy. It is getting no where to change US policy, which includes other countries BESIDES BRAZIL. Why would Americans want to visit Brazil when they just inconvenience (only) us and throw us in jail? It would be different if they included other countries besides for the US, which is what the US does for Brazil.

OH Jal777 I'm indeed for total separation from Brazil. Not due to the stupid actions of two guys with their arrogant middle fingers extended. But because the relations between the U.S. and Brazil have been strained for 25yrs with regard to immigration. So everyone quit pointing the finger at Pres Bush and understand these are old adversaries who basically as governments do not like one another.

Brazil was insulted and rightly so, as for locking up US citizens well they deserved it for being complete morons. You need to remember you are guests in another country and should act accordingly.

...unfortunately it is twits like this that give you guys a bad name.

ha, it's much more than that, cx_flyboy...

Imagine a plane load of pax arrived in that country, each and every single one of them flipped the bird...are the cops going to detain each and every one of them? This would be so funny. I cant imagine if this would be a new american trend setting for entering Brazil. I know its rude and just plain stupid, but gotta give the AA pilot credit for that being the first one to do so. But still...its ridiculous when people disrespect other customs. These guys should be chained to the wall on all fours for that.

Although this thread really has NOTHING to do with civil aviation operations, I wanted to make a quick comment on this.

Why would Americans want to visit Brazil when they just inconvenience (only) us and throw us in jail?

Brazil doesn't throw Americans in jail. With all of the Americans who travel to Brazil, a TOTAL number of TWO have been put into jail whilst awaiting charges.

Next time you are going thru US Customs or any other checkpoint at a US airport, try telling the employee to "fuck off" (for this is what the 'bird' is telling them), and see what happens to you. People will try to say "Oh, you wouldn't be thrown into jail in the US for this" -- but how do you know this unless you have said this to an employee of one of the many agencies at US airports?

Whether you agree with what the Brazilians, or the Americans for that fact, are doing, is neither here nor there - there are laws in place which have to be respected and if you don't respect those laws, then you have to face the consequences.

This guy is an idiot, especially as he knew the consequences of his actions.

There is a BIG difference what the Brazilian Government is doing to Americans and what our government is doing to them. First of all, they are taking a full ten print with INK and a digital camera. The US is taking a digital print of a left and right index finger and a quick photo. The whole process is about ten seconds. What are the Brazilians doing with those print cards and digital photos? I bet they are ending up in the shredder. Still, it is shamefully what the AA pilot and ugly American tourist did.

The Brazilians "machismo" is still smarting over the fact they are being photographed and fingerprinted upon entering the U.S.

They are not happy about this at all. So "unofficially" the authorities have been ordered to take a hard line against "birds" and other upheld digits.

Brazil's actions look like a school yard tit for tat.




It's just way too funny that it has come to this where grown men and governments are acting like little childred because "he gave me the finger".

This may not make this person look so good but it does not make the Brazilian government look any better either.

First of all, they are taking a full ten print with INK and a digital camera.

I believe the Brazilians are now using digital machines.

What are the Brazilians doing with those print cards and digital photos?

It is irrelevant what the Brazilians are doing with the prints and photos. It's called tit-for-tat in the diplomatic world. The US says they are using them to keep terrorists out. All the Brazilians have to say is that they will be using them to help keep out American child sex tourists, and then no-one will have a proverbial leg to stand on.

Tekelberry wrote:

Brazil is being extrmely arrogant with their policy. It is getting no where to change US policy, which includes other countries BESIDES BRAZIL. Why would Americans want to visit Brazil when they just inconvenience (only) us and throw us in jail?

Diplomatic decisions like this one are sometimes driven by ego, it's hard to say. But to say that a guy was inconvenienced because he flicked off a Brazilian police officer and had to face the consequences is just playing the victim card.

Imagine what would happen if someone went up to a Homeland Security guy at any US airport and did the same thing.

Santosdumont, exactly! If the roles were reversed and this happened here to TSA, you'd be lucky to get out of serious prison time and fines, not to mention the initial knockdown when the TSA agents put you in handcuffs.

Like I said before with this guy, stupidity marches onward!  

Cheers!

This should be discussed in the "political/diplomatic relations forum". It has nothing to do with civil aviation.

Fellow Americans uphold your right to flip off officials of foreign governments. And while you are at it, ride your Yamaha to a Hell's Angels meet. It's your right!

Expect some consequences. In any country, expect some consequences.

The fingerprint - photo issue is a separate matter. Foreign policy is not our job. That is why we have elections.

Boy, I didn't think I would see this thread again.
When you travel to another country, You are bound by the rules of that country. PLAIN AND SIMPLE !!!!!!!! If they want to finger print us, and you think it is a bad idea... DO NOT GO !!!!!!!!
The whole thing stems from an immigration issue our governments are fighting over. Brazil is a beautiful country. The people are gracious and also, might I add, BEAUTIFUL.
The exchange rate means that you can do all your Christmas shopping for about 100.00 USD, and still have money to eat and drink like a king.
So don't sweat the finger print and photo. Hey, You had to give a photo to get the visa anyway. So consider it a second photo to check records or something. It isn't a big deal people. The big deal is the idiots who think Americans are above their rules.

Good to hear from you, particularly your last sentence, Cadet93!

Another fellow American wrote earlier:-

Brazil is being extrmely arrogant with their policy.

Doubtless picking up their attitude from somewhere else!

Bon Voyages!

"Brazil is being extremely arrogant with their policy."

They aren't arrogant. What you're talking about is called Reciprocity, it means Brazil applies the same policies other countries apply to Brazil.

"It would be different if they included other countries besides for the US, which is what the US does for Brazil"...

Once again, it is reciprocity. Brazil only fingerprints Americans because USA is the ONLY COUNTRY THAT FINGERPRINTS BRAZILIANS!!. And yes, the basics of this policy are different between the 2 countries. USA Allegedly does it because of National Security (which is not true and that is a subject of another discussion). In the other hand, Brazil does it under the reciprocity Law, and there is nothing they can do about it.

"Why would Americans want to visit Brazil when they just inconvenience (only) us and throw us in jail"

Let me ask you a similar question. Why would the rest of the world want to visit USA when they just inconvenience (Almost) everybody (excluding Europeans) and throw everybody in jail????

"It is getting no where to change US policy" It may be so, but it wasn't Brazil that led USA to implement that policy; however, it was solely the US that led Brazil to implement theirs.

Getting to the point, bottom line is that anybody who "desires, wants, loves, has" to visit a country other than his/her own must ABIDE the visited country laws. It is called respect

Great, SoAmSky, I agree entirely!

The 'arrogant' remark was quoted in italics and was made by somebody else as previously mentioned - it was not my remark! To me it sounded like the pot calling the kettle . . . !

Each to his own!

Stop giving The Finger!! Obviously it's a crime to be rude in Brazil. DUH!!!

If the roles were reversed and this happened here to TSA, you'd be lucky to get out of serious prison time and fines, not to mention the initial knockdown when the TSA agents put you in handcuffs.

First of all, the TSA agents are NOT cops. They do not have any authority to physically handcuff somebody and they do not carry handcuffs. They are not trained to combat somebody like the airport police officers can. The TSA can ASK or REQUEST the airport police to legally detain someone for some reason but, who has the final say in who gets arrested and who doesnt falls under airport police authority. The TSA agents just screen for prohibited items, no less than that. Thats their role. If they find any, they temporarly detain pax until airport police arrive and then report the situation in question and turn over any evidence to them.

The county of Brazil is known for having very lax policies of letting known terrorists into there county, so that is the reason they have the program into affect for them. I for one will not be visiting Brazil again for a long while, as there policies are stupid, as they don't have a national registry to check the info against as the US does. They are doing it to harass the US citizen's who bring a lot of revenue to there county and then they are arresting them for there showing of discontent of the harassment.

I just think it's really funny that as soon as an American screws up it's always the other people's fault.

And I think that Usnseallt82 is talking about the immigration officers because I doubt that the screeners in Brazil also check your passports and take your fingerprints.

It is not TSA printing/photographing individuals entering the US, it is the INS (now called Customs and Border Protection) If there is an issue regarding a person's protest of being printed/photographed, that person will not be allowed to enter the US. It is all part of the inspection process.

Brazil is a fine country, their politics are improving and Lula is doing a decent job, but he has a tough battle there. As a Country it has its problems like any other country, but it is a great place to visit and the people are great. You can never forget that you are a guest there. So act with some class and you will have no problem..

Whilest everone says the US fingerprinting and photographing is not doing anything. It should be noted that it is working in another area. It has caught literally thousands of forged and altered visas and passports that resulted in the deportation of illegals. Additionally, It has resulted in the arrests of several hundred people on outstanding warrants and finally, It has resulted in the deportation of hundreds that are considered a threat to national security in the very short time it has been in place.

The process is simple quick and nothing like the Brazillian system that checks no databases and is not used for tracking but, rather has been used (as publically admitted by the Brazillian govt) as a tit for tat. The US system takes a few seconds. The Brazillian system takes considerably longer causing backups and delays.

The US will not drop the US Visit system with Brazil as it turned out that Brazil is one of the top 5 countries for illegal forged and altered documents entering the US that it caught.

I guess the Brazillians that keep bashing the US want to come and live here it seems (illegally I might add)

If the Brazillians want to play stupid then we could do a political tit for tat and require ink prints of all fingers and substandard treatment as they do to Americans. I think that we should create a Brazillian only line and move thru at the same pace they do and watch the uproar!!!

Yeah, great idea Acvitale...not!

If the system is so great and effective for catching people with outstanding warrants, why don't they do the same for US citizens? Don't you think that way you can send even more people to jail?

Not to be stupid, but could it be a legitimate way of holding it? I was holding up a card once nad noticed only my middle finger was exposed. Oops.

SoAmSky,

Are you saying that reciprocity policies are always correct? The US actually has a reason to fingerprint and photograph, Brazil does not.

I just think it's really funny that as soon as an American screws up it's always the other people's fault.

Can people be as naive as you? How insulting of you.

Did I mention it was your fault?  

Great point Ushermittwoch! You took the words right out of my mouth..I think Brazil was just even if it is tit for tat, if their citizens have to be fingerprinted and photographed well US residents must go through the same treatment. I agree if this practice is catching people entering the country that have warrants then why not do it to Americans re-entering the country?

Well...just to take another tack on the whole "arrogance" issue, I'd really like to see a comparison of how much money Brazil sends to the United States vis a vis how much we provide to them.

How about we just cancel ALL foreign aid and tourism dollars to Brazil and see how well they do. I'll bet they'd be crawling on their bellies and begging forgiveness in a matter of days! And this applies not only to Brazil, but all the other countries that feel we're arrogant here in the US.

Every other nation in the world seems to be getting on this USA bashing bandwagon....until they NEED our money and resources!!

Call it arrogance if you like...but the United States is still the richest most prosperous nation in the world. We spend BILLIONS of dollars to prop up the economies of other nations, who then turn around and treat our citizens badly when they should be thanking us for giving them the time of day.

The new security measures for foreign visitors to the United States are long overdue. I don't recall any Al Quida fanatics (or Americans) flying planes into the tallest building in Rio or Sao Paulo, do you?

Am I an arrogant American? YES. And damn proud of it!! I thank my lucky stars every day to have been born here.

My two cents on the matter.

With regards to all,

Mike

Every other nation in the world seems to be getting on this USA bashing bandwagon....until they NEED our money and resources!!

Yup! And thus a strategically upheld finger. Brazil's pride is hurt. They will get over it. Eventually.

Brazil is being extrmely arrogant with their policy. It is getting no where to change US policy, which includes other countries BESIDES BRAZIL. Why would Americans want to visit Brazil when they just inconvenience (only) us and throw us in jail? It would be different if they included other countries besides for the US, which is what the US does for Brazil.

Some of you might be surprised by this, but I don't think Brazil is being arrogant. They have every right to know who or what is coming through their borders, just as we do.

My only issue with this is that I have not heard of any other nation's citizens being fingerprinted when going to Brazil. If that is the case, then Brazil is only shooting itself in the foot, since American tourism and business sales are significant parts of their economy. The United States has chosen a select group of nations that we trust to give out accurate travel documents and whose documents are difficult to forge.

Brazil, among many (but not all) other Central and South American nations, has a history of corruption that makes the Chicago Democratic Machine look like Plato's Republic. While that may not be the reasoning behind the fingerprinting of people coming from Brazil, it sure gives me pause.

Regardless, these two people, the pilot and this man, are both idiots. I hope they enjoy their respective stays in prison.

Brazil already knows who is coming when and where, as they require the US travelers to get a visa prior to arriving.

Hey 5T6, fantastic post. Except you forgot to mention about that time 50 years ago where you personally saved the entire world in a small global conflict.  

And please do stop "supporting" every single government and country in the world -- and whilst you are doing this, the rest of the world will start calling in all the debt which is owed to it -- before you know it Americans won't be all that arrogant, as pictures of you huddled together in fly blown masses are beamed live on huge screens at a Bob Geldof benefit concert at Wembley Stadium.

Get over yourself already.

5T6 wrote:

Well...just to take another tack on the whole "arrogance" issue, I'd really like to see a comparison of how much money Brazil sends to the United States vis a vis how much we provide to them.

How about we just cancel ALL foreign aid and tourism dollars to Brazil and see how well they do. I'll bet they'd be crawling on their bellies and begging forgiveness in a matter of days! We spend BILLIONS of dollars to prop up nations, who then turn around and treat our citizens badly when they should be thanking us for giving them the time of day.

Let me get this straight, Mike. You're basically saying that by virtue of being the richest, U.S. citizens can freely break the law in other countries and not have to worry about accountability?

Where does this idea of Brazil treating U.S. citizens badly come from? You make it sound as if this guy came off the plane with open arms and was then put in a dungeon somewhere. The guy was a total wanker and showed the judgment of a three-year old. He has to answer for it.

Let's say an American goes to Indonesia and tries to sell some cocaine. He gets caught. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the penalty for drug dealing in that particular country is death. But the guy says "Oh, wait I'm an American. I get a free pass." 'Fraid not, amigo. The State Department will tell you that Americans are subject to the laws of the particular country they're in.

Similarly, if an 18-year Brazilian is in New York and wants to have a beer -- he can't. The drinking age law is the law of the land where he's visiting, rightly or wrongly.

Just because someone is rich doesn't mean they're above the law. This is elementary civics, isn't it?

Am I an arrogant American? YES. And damn proud of it!! I thank my lucky stars every day to have been born here.

Certainly, you should be proud of where you come from. But, as one radio broadcaster to another, let me leave you with some food for thought from Metallica:

"Arrogance and Ignorance go Hand in Hand" (from "Holier than Thou")

Russophile,

I very much agree with you. If this fella did this, then he has to pay for what he did. I can't comprehend why people would do this, and the thing is this person was a banker and the other guy was a pilot so they had to have brains. I guess maybe some people forget to pack there bags on long trips like that.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff

Oh, come on you lot. This is getting ridiculous.

What goes around comes around.
If the US will be getting fingerprints of foreigners coming to the US, than it is fair that other countries will take fingerprints of US citizens.

This matter is so simple, but people still think that is against Americans or "Brazilian arrogance" or whatever you guys want to think about it.

Here are some facts that I thought would be interesting for all to know:

What does a American citizen need to do to obtain a Brazilian visa?

Its simple, just gather some documents, passport, picture, send a money order
of 100 dollars, and mail it to the Brazilian embassy close to you.

You will get your passport back with a Brazilian visa within a week.

What does a Brazilian need to do to obtain a American visa?

First thing: pay a 30 dollars for a scheduling fee.
with this fee paid, you may call an automate phone service
that will schedule a day for your interview.

Gather all the documents that you might have related to you, that
will prove that you have money to spend in the U, among many
other documents.

Pay the 100 dollars fee.

You have to go PERSONALY to any of 4 or 5 American consulates in
Brazil, (for people that live in the west part of Brazil they have to travel
at least 1000 km to go for a interview.)

In the day that you are scheduled for your interview. You have to be
there at least 3 hours ahead.

Get in line, outside the embassy or consulate - you might wait in line for
at least 3 hours.

After all this time, your interview is made through a "Amored" window, "when
usually, not always, the agents make questions like: "Do you pretend
to stay illegal in the USA, or have you ever committed any terrorist act? "

After this questions this agent can do three things: grant you the visa,
deny the visa, or send you to a second interview.

For this second interview, you will probably wait at least two hours,
and again, you are going to speak with a not very friendly agent, that
will ask you the same kind of questions and ask you to prove how much
money you have in your bank account, how many properties you have
and so on.
This agent can do two things: deny or grant you a visa.
If after all this you had a visa granted, you should go to a 3rd part
both inside the consulate and pay another 10 dollars to have your
passport mailed to you whiten 7 to 10 days.

Then you board a plane and fly from 9 to 12 hours.
When you get to the airport you have to go through the immigration,
get fingerprinted, get a photo taken, the agent usually ask you
why you came to the US, ask you for how long you are going to
stay. If he is convinced that you did not lie to him, he will let you go.
If the agent thinks you could be not telling him the truth, he will
ask another agent to escort you to a tiny little room next to the
customs. You going to have to wait in there for at least 3 hours
and all those questions will be asked again. They are all asked
in English - does not really matters if you speak the language or not.

If after this interview, if they decide you are good to go, they will
let you go. But by this time your connection flight its gone.
If they decide that you are not good to go, you will be DEPORTED
and you have to pay for the next flight back to Brazil.

All this and WE DO NOT SHOW THEM THE FINGER.

Now you decide where the arrogance comes from.

Cheers


[Edited 2004-02-08 00:44:09]

EMBTucano,

Sorry it took that long a post, but you could not be any more correct than you are!

These idiots that disrespect the people who are trying to get them processed and into the country deserve what they get.

"SoAmSky,

Are you saying that reciprocity policies are always correct? The US actually has a reason to fingerprint and photograph, Brazil does not."

Takelberry,

Weather or not reciprocity policies are right or wrong is irrelevant in this case. What you have to understand is that Brazil has this kind of laws. They were written long time ago and it is not up to us to change it. Could it hurt Brazil in the long run? Yes it could. But it is not by disrespecting how you can let them know you don't like their policy. As someone said it earlier: those who doesn't like it, easy, don't go there.
Understand that many people (majority) who come to USA don't like being fingerprinted and photographed, they feel denigrated and feel that it's procedure kinda for criminals; however, so far, I have not heard about the first case of someone disrespecting immigration authorities.
There are already many people who have canceled their vacation plans to come to the USA, and many others avoid at all cost any connection thru an airport in the USA. Those who still choose to come just go thru the process and get it over with, no complaint.

Finally, USA alleges reason to fingerprint certain nationals, well, Brazil reason is reciprocity. Different?? Indeed, nonetheless reasons.