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ORDnDFW777
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Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:06 pm

The US / UK market is the largest across the pond but is the most restrictive. Is this pathetic or what?
 
747firstclass
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:27 pm

it is much, much worse than pathetic. With the EU approval of AF/KL it is all a document from beyond the beyond. Words can not describe the mess it has created.
 
lutfi
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:03 pm

The US domestic market is the largest in the world, but also one of the most restrictive... Pathetic as well.
 
ANA
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:50 pm

It may be wrong, but countries all have different agreements between each other and this happens to be the UK/US agreement. It is not just Bermuda II that is pathetic but all the rules and regs that restrict any open sky possibilities as well as various countries restrictions on ownership of airlines by foreign companies.

Anders
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:53 pm

Words can not describe the mess it has created.

The US domestic market is the largest in the world, but also one of the most restrictive... Pathetic as well.



...and they'll remain so, as the respective governments actually have very little incentive to abolish them.

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bucky707
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:05 am

why should the US open up their domestic market? Name one country that allows foreign airlines to fly domestic routes? France? England? Germany? Japan? Mexico? Don't take shots at us unless others are willing to do it.
 
airbazar
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:07 am

Oh I don't know about that. When all the major US legacy carriers go out of business and non of the LCC are willing to offer trans-atlantic service, things will change  Smile
 
747firstclass
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:12 am

Very, very, very well stated Bucky707. I dont remember reading one complaint from Kl or AF on this subject when they are arranging their merger and their alliance with DL and NW.
It is my belief that the size of that alliance will force BA and the UK to finally do something about the access to LHR issue.
Otherwise, BA will just be spinning their wheels and watch all the transfer passenegrs to and from the US be routed through CDG or AMS.
In the end I do believe that the US is holding the complete deck of cards. It is just that BA has not figured that out yet.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:15 am

It is just that BA has not figured that out yet.

...it has, but what do you expect it to realistically do: give up hundreds of slots at its already weakly-dominated hub, in exchange for an alliance which has no guarantee of lasting? ...that's the current asking price.

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JGPH1A
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:41 am

Re: Name one country that allows foreign airlines to fly domestic routes?

The EU Single Market allows any airline based in an EU country to operate any route from any point within the EU to any other point within the EU. Hence Easyjet (based in the UK) operates domestic flights in France (ORY/CDG-NCE/TLS/BOD etc).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
aaway
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:47 am

JGPH1A,
I think the genesis of the original question was related to the lack of cabotage rights for foreign carriers in the U. S. Your answer is certainly correct. In addition, Emirates has been given approval provide service in the Austrailian domestic market.
The cabotage issue has always been thorny and will unlikely be changed for many years. Quite simply, foreign countries do not have a domestic market comparable with that of the U. S. Perhaps greater 5th freedom access for U. S. carriers would be a nice tradeoff for U. S. cabotage.

"It is my belief that the size of that alliance will force BA and the UK to finally do something about the access to LHR issue..." "...In the end I do believe that the US is holding the complete deck of cards. It is just that BA has not figured that out yet."

Personally, I think the E. U. holds the cards on this on. Any transborder merger between BA and a European based OAL will have to get approval there...though I'm sure the U. S. will aid and abet a process relaxing restrictions at LHR.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
bartond
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:21 am

So what is BA supposed to do? Actually begin to form a relationship with AA and get Oneworld to be more of an alliance or what? What will keep LHR strong when the Skyteam situation in Paris and Amsterdam begins to gain more and more connecting pax? Or is BA and/or LHR worried about this?
 
[email protected]
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:03 am

The British government doesn't want to compromise British Airways (or VS or BMI) in any way at LHR, the country's jewel in the crown. Opening up LHR means more heavy competition (a good thing). But i agree, the Bermuda 2 treaty is a dinosaur aviation agreement and is anti-competitive and restrictive, it needs to go.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Sydscott
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:07 am


"Name one country that allows foreign airlines to fly domestic routes?"

Australia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ansett domestic was 100% owned by Air New Zealand and VirginBlue started off 100% owned by Richard Branson.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:13 am

Sydscott

I cannot absolutely verify this as of this date, but just a few short years ago Australia charged US airlines many times more in service charges than you were chaged here in the US. This was thousands of dollars per flight more at the time.

If this is still true it is hardly a level playing field.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:23 am


"but just a few short years ago Australia charged US airlines many times more in service charges than you were chaged here in the US."

Service charges for what??? Flying people domestically???

When Ansett went bust people were encouraged to fly UAL on the Sydney-Melbourne route. SQ is still reportedly pondering its options for a domestic service in Australia but then it would have a significant advantage being Australias second biggest uplifter of International Traffic. If you want to setup a domestic airline down under there are no foreign ownership limits at all.

 
Gemuser
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:19 am

"Opening up LHR means more heavy competition (a good thing). "

How the hell do you open up something that is at full capacity to more competiition? It is my understanding that there are NO unused slots at LHR at the times anybody wants them. If that is true then the USA demand for more access is just stupid, there isn't any to get.

Yes there could be fiddling at the edge eg remove the two airline from each country limit, but where are the new entrants going to get slots from? Once again my understanding is that all UK airlines have approximately 50% of LHR slots, a reasonable position for the UK government to maintain. I am against US airlines getting any more slots at LHR, if there is any to give, give them to Qantas! (and not those 2200 to 2359 ones either!!!)

So all you people bleating about Bermuda2, what is your (realistic) solution for the LHR slot problem?


Gemuser
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bobrayner
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:22 am

Bermuda 2 treaty is a dinosaur aviation agreement and is anti-competitive and restrictive, it needs to go.

I couldn't agree more. It stifles competition and hurts consumers.
Cunning linguist
 
[email protected]
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:27 am

Prime time slots are limited, any new US or UK carrier such as DL, CO or BD would need a reasonable amount of slots for proper competition. No point in giving Delta or Continental 2 or 3 daily departures, that simply won't work. One solution was for BA/AA to give up over 100 weekly slots each, but both BA and AA instantly rejected that at the last round of bilateral talks.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
col
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:30 am

I think that Europe should open their markets for the US carriers to fly domestically, then they can see how we suffer!!!!!
 
747firstclass
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:37 am

[email protected]LHR. The offer that BA/AA turned down a few years ago may seem like a deal now. Who knows they might even be kicking themselves now that the AF/KL merger has been approved. You add that to DL and NW and possibly CO and it is awesome. BA is now at a point where they will see massive loss of transfer passengers from LHr to CDG and AMS. In the mean time it may be years before BA is in that kind of alliance with a US carrier.
It is too bad but BA and LHR had many, many oportunities since the US signed their first openskies with the Netherlands 10 years or so ago.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:45 am

"I think that Europe should open their markets for the US carriers to fly domestically, then they can see how we suffer!!!!!"

I thought Pan Am and TWA both used to do this???? Besides which its not like Europe needs Southwest they've got plenty of cattle class LCC's anyway.

"The offer that BA/AA turned down a few years ago may seem like a deal now."

You've got to be joking. Why would BA give away slots at its most important hub??? No disrespect to Paris and Amsterdam airports, but they're not in the same league as Heathrow. I sure as hell wouldn't be giving up slots just so CO, DL & NW could fly in. If they want slots give them access and let them buy their way in. Besides which, as Gemuser says, how are you going to open up Heathrow when its already at capacity with no unused slots??? In reality its only really US airlines that complain about not being able to get access. From a world perspective who cares??? All the rest of our flag carriers can fly there.


 
bobrayner
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:05 am

In reality its only really US airlines that complain about not being able to get access. From a world perspective who cares??? All the rest of our flag carriers can fly there.

It's only US airlines... and all the non-flag-carriers... and those who can't afford slots, whilst BA (for example) has no difficulty affording large numbers of slots...

If they want slots give them access and let them buy their way in.

Indeed; the best solution would be open access for all, at the same price.
However, I don't know how you can support this whilst simultaneously supporting the status quo.
Cunning linguist
 
Sydscott
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:22 pm


"It's only US airlines... and all the non-flag-carriers... and those who can't afford slots, whilst BA (for example) has no difficulty affording large numbers of slots..."

There is already a market for buying slots at Heathrow. Both QF & BA come to mind a having bought slots at the airport. If the rest of teh US carriers want to serve LHR then let them..........and also let them buy their way in. It would be a new marketplace and if they offered the right price to the right airline then they would get access.

"However, I don't know how you can support this whilst simultaneously supporting the status quo."

Where did I say I supported the status quo??? I merely stated the obvious which is that BA/AA will not go ahead with an alliance if it means them giving up slots at LHR. BA should not be forced to give up slots anyway just to let US based carriers in. If they want in, let them buy their way in and give them access. To the highest bidder will go the prize and, after all, thats the way other companies sell and trade assets why should airlines be any different???
 
747firstclass
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:01 pm

From the US side BA will not have to give up any slots as long as enough slots are made to US carriers to provide the services they want. This is a statement that a number of people in the current US administration and former administrations have said.
Also, no foregin carrier has ever paid a cent to get a slot at any US airport. if the Us cariers are forced to pay for slots--expect for Ba and Vs to pay through the nose for their slots st LAX,SFO,ORD,MIA,JFK etc. I can guarantee you that would happen.
On the other hand there have been studies after studies done at LHR that show over and over again that more take offs and landings can be accomplished with better runway management. That is where the new slots should come from and in the end will come from.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Bermuda II - Pathetic?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:35 pm


"as long as enough slots are made to US carriers to provide the services they want."

So how many slots is that then???? 100 odd????

"more take offs and landings can be accomplished with better runway management."

Even if there are more slots available then surely Virgin Atlantic and British Midland have the priority in new slots allocations. The British government would look after there own airlines first before foreign carriers just as the US government does. Then the other carriers currently serving Heathrow like Cathay, SQ, MAS, JAL, Korean, Qantas, ANZ etc etc. They would all be eager to add services into LHR.

"Also, no foreign carrier has ever paid a cent to get a slot at any US airport"

Your point being???? LHR is a very different proposition than US airports. You want the access, you pay the price for it.

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