Would Denver Make A Good Commuter Hub?

KLM11 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:57 am

Dear Everyone,

I was just wondering if:

1) Would Denver (DEN) make a good commuter hub for beech 1900D, and mybe CRJ-900's. The Beech could fly to say Aspen, where the CRJ's could fly to say Phoenix, AZ (PHX).
2) For any route, would having a Business Class cabin be worth it on a CRJ-900?

Thanks Everyone,

--KLM11

KLM11 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:18 am

Anyone .......... Anyone ..........

mariner · Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:40 am

To some extent, it already is. This is the route map for Great Lakes Aviation:

http://www.greatlakesav.com/html/route_map.html

Their main hub is now Denver, and they code share with UAL and Frontier.

Sadly, their loads are not terrific.

cheers

mariner

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:41 am

KLM11, Denver is already a good commuter hub. With the flights to Aspen, Steamboat Springs, Colorado Springs, Vail, Gunnison, and others; Denver is very good with the Crj's and the BAe's from United Airlines Express (Air Wisconsin), but I can't see Denver being a good hub for the Beech 1900D. I think the 1900D is more for the United States East Coast.

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Eventhough Denver is a good commuter hub, I still think Denver would be a great international hub for flights to Asia, and Europe

LambertMan · Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:52 am

Yanksn4, International hub? UA isn't interested in DEN internationally, and despite the wildly successful flights of BA and LH at DEN, it can't support much more past the way of another CDG flight, thus rendering it less than a hub per se. I've heard people wishing for AMS, and unless its done by UA, it won't work. Just ask KE about the viability of DEN to Asia.....EIGHTY THREE would be a figure that would be brought up, as that was the daily average load. Although in the future DEN may be able to support some type of ANA 4x a week NRT service, that is about as far as DEN's international prospects go for Asia and Euope. Maybe your idea of international hub should be reconsidered, its certainly no SFO, LAX, JFK, or ATL of the world. Domestically, Canada and Mexico of course is a different story.

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:59 am

LAMBERTMAN, What I said is it is just my opinion, okay? Besides, this topic isn't about Denver International Airport's international hub capabilities, it's about Denver being a good commuter hub. Please stay on KLM11's topic, and by the way= I can dream can't I?

united · Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:14 am

About the CRJ-900 business class... It could be feasible, but it depends.

Will it be 2-1 or 2-2?

How much pitch?

How great of service?

Considering it is a plane with the capacity around 90, it could have a first class; F-100s of AA and MX have only a little more than 100, but have an 8 seat first cabin. So I'd say it's possible. BTW- I thought I saw somewhere that an airline is doing that with their CRJ-900s. Was it AWA???

LambertMan · Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:14 am

Chill out, I didn't insult you or anything. If someone disagrees with my statements I don't get all huffy and puffy about it and tell them to stick to the topic, I just say whatever and move on. I think you were the first to bring up the international hub anyways.......

ssides · Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:36 am

I can't see any airport being a good hub for B1900 shuttle flights. This aircraft is tiny, and most travelers hate flying on it. There's no flight attendant, and in most cases, no lavatory. With the exception of Mesa's EAS markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see the B1900 disappear from commercial service within the next 5 years.

gigneil · Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:38 am

UA used to operate Beech 1900s by the assload from DEN, using Mesa.

UA would kill, literally, to operate DEN-LHR, and did very well on the second daily to FRA when they operated it.

If Korean operated 83% loads, they'd still be there.

All things told, with the new 16,000 ft runway those flights that used to lose money will now make money. LH is thrilled with it.

N

aa757first · Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:47 am

Gigneil,

I think he means 83 passengers, not 83%.

AAndrew

ramprat74 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:15 am

The 1900 and 1900D was all that UAX (Mesa) flew out of DEN after it opened up. They flew to every small airport in Colorado, Wyoming, Kansas and Nebraska. UA dumped them because of their poor performance.

Wouldn't you know, eight years later. They are flying the UAX colors again. Nuts

MAH4546 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:59 am

did very well on the second daily to FRA when they operated it.

If it did that well, it would still be operating. Loads were good, yields were terrible.

Coronado990 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:17 am

The resorts towns of Aspen, Eagle/Vail, Steamboat Sprs and Gunnison all very seasonal. You better be ready to deploy those airplanes somewhere else during the summer months.

BA · Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:18 am

MAH4546,

The 2nd daily FRA flight was only seasonal.

LambertMan,

While it's true that Korean Air's flight averaged 83 passengers, the flight remained profitable for 3 years because of massive cargo movement carried by the 747 Combi.

That's why it operated for 3 years non-stop. They discontinued when cargo movement between North America and Asia began to slump as a result of the upcoming recession. Cargo traffic dropped significantly and as a result, they stopped it.

The flight was poorly marketted.

ANA and JAL are both interested in starting NRT-DEN in a couple years down the road. There was some brief talk a while ago about Korean Air returning, but I think it was just a rumor.

Regarding AMS, Northwest Airlines has Denver on its list for DEN-AMS service. I think it will do very well. KLM provides excellent connections throughout Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

CDG will hopefully come in a couple years on Air France.

And yes, BA and LH are doing extremely well in DEN....

Regards

KLM11 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:35 am

Reguarding the Business Class, It would be 2 rows of a 1-2 arrangment. For all the flights probably no meals, but the seats would have an above average pitch, maybe similar to an international Business Class?

--KLM11

dia77 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:19 pm

The KE flights have been discussed again and again in prior threads. A major reason loads were so poor was the fact that the flight (one stop through LAX and later SFO) was not nonstop. KE had no notable advantage over UA. I think a 777 nonstop service might be quite successful now.

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:29 pm

I might be a little out of the ballpark for this, but does anyone see maybe in ten years either a flight by Aer Lingus to Dublin or a flight by United or someone else to Hong Kong?

gigneil · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:40 pm

If it did that well, it would still be operating. Loads were good, yields were terrible.

Seasonal flight.

a flight by United or someone else to Hong Kong?

Well, see, UA operates well from SFO/LAX whichever because of a combination of feeder and O/D.

DEN would be all feeder, granted, UA has very powerful feeder there.

I see NRT working very well... for ANA or UA. JAL I have doubts.

I'll say again, UA would kill to operate LHR.

N

trijetfan1 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:41 pm

Yanksn4- I don't see a Dublin-Denver in the future......If Aer Lingus did they would have to stop at JFK first then onto Denver then to LAX, as for Hong Kong, it might be a slight possibility, but I even see that b/c UAL already has ORD-Honk Kong and SFO-Hong Kong........Agreed on the terms of Mexican and Canadian flights bound flights out of DEN.
-TriJetFan1

DLKAPA · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:48 pm

When DEN starts getting the UA 744's this summer, will NRT be on the list of destinations? or is it just the usual SFO and ORD flights?

DLKAPA

JumboBumbo · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:56 pm

Here's an interesting thought... Mariner I'd like to hear your input on this one...

Given that Denver actually has a pretty sizeable Vietnamese population... given increasing ties and commerce between the US and Vietnam, does anyone think there may be a possibility of a DEN-Ho Chi Mihn City flight on Vietnam or UA? I mean within a timescale of about 10 years or so.

IMHO DEN will eventually be a pretty respectable international destination, but it's going to take a while.

trijetfan1 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:59 pm

Does Vietnam airlines have the equipment to fly to DEN?

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:03 pm

Okay, just to make this a little easier, tell me what you think the next route to serve Denver International Airport, by which airline , and when would you think the earliest that route would finally happen.

KLM11 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:05 pm

Ummmm Guys would you answer my origional question Please," Would Denver make a good commuter hub, and is business class PROFITABLE on a CRJ-900"

--KLM11

gigneil · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:05 pm

No. They'd need a 772LR.

N

trijetfan1 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:10 pm

KLM11- yes it would, I think, b/c it is in the middle of major cities.

mariner · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:14 pm

JumboBumbo:

Hanoi? From Denver? Gee, I'd love to see that happen. Could the A345 do it non-stop?

Realistically, I think it will be a long time in the future, though. As I understand it, the first service Vietnam/US will be Vietnam (airlines) to SFO.

I think all the others will take a wait and see approach and for the time being, it will mostly be code share.

While it's certainly true that Denver has a sizeable Vietnamese community, other cities have bigger communities, SF and LA.

But DIA would lay out the red carpet to any airline that does start service to Asia though. They gave a million bucks in incentives to Mexicana to start DEN/MEX.

Imagine how much they'd give to an airline that starts DEN/NRT or DEN/HKG.

cheers

mariner

ps: How about DEN/KEF to code share with Icelandair on their many European destinations?

LambertMan · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:15 pm

Yanksn4who just redirected the whole thread to , " Okay, just to make this a little easier, tell me what you think the next route to serve Denver International Airport, by which airline , and when would you think the earliest that route would finally happen."? Alright, I'm just having fun about your quote when you previously told me I needed to get back on topic, no hard feelings Big grin

.
KLM11, your question is kind of hard to answer in large part due to the fact that business class on a CRJ hasn't really been tried yet. You must remember that the difference in room and overhead space is quite a bit different from that of a CRJ to a 717. If you would have said something like a connecting point for something like 737's w/ business class, I probably would have told you that DEN has enough premium pax for such a type of operation.

DLKAPA · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:16 pm

KLM, because of our very central location in the united states (not as central as Kansas City, but close), I would have to say that Denver would make an excellent CRJ hub. CRJ's could pretty much serve from DEN to every point west of the Mississippi.

DLKAPA

gigneil · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:16 pm

Ummmm Guys would you answer my origional question Please," Would Denver make a good commuter hub, and is business class PROFITABLE on a CRJ-900"

Denver IS a good commuter hub now and always has been, and numerous people have answered that, many specifically to the Beech 1900D.

Nobody here can answer your question about business class on a CRJ-900. It depends on your specific CASM at that specific airline.

CRJ's have higher CASM in general than mainline jets.

N

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:18 pm

Does United Airlines codeshare with Iceland Air? And does Iceland Air have any aircraft available that could get form Iceland to Denver International Airport?

DLKAPA · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:23 pm

Yanksn4, You live here. Is there any particular reason that you would want to go to Iceland?

Didn't think so.

Why would anybody from here want to go to Iceland? On a 762, a flight from DEN to Iceland would have an average load of 5 people. I'm being generous.

DLKAPA

mariner · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:24 pm

KLM11:

I answered your question with reply #2. Denver is already a commuter hub for Great Lakes Airlines, who use some Beechcraft 1900D aircraft.

As to the CRJ900, mesa flies them for America West with a "first class" cabin, which is really "business class".

There are rumors, posted on this forum, that they are removing the first class cabin from those aircraft to make it all coach.

cheers

mariner

gigneil · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:27 pm

Does United Airlines codeshare with Iceland Air? And does Iceland Air have any aircraft available that could get form Iceland to Denver International Airport?

They don't, no. Its a long haul.

Why would anybody from here want to go to Iceland?

I'm from Denver (not now, but before) and I LOVE Iceland. Some of the most breathtaking scenery in the world, and some of the best partying you can buy.

I love IcelandAir's BWI-REK service. I don't know if its on now, but certainly used to be.

N

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:30 pm

First: KLM11, I too answered your question in Post #3.

Second: DLKAPA, I'm not the one who raised the Denver to Iceland Flight. Mariner is the one as you might see said that, and I just raised a question about it.

mariner · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:35 pm

"Why would anybody from here want to go to Iceland?"

Apart from Gigneil, not many people do. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But Iceland isn't the point. Most people flying from the US to Iceland are going on to Europe, and vice versa.

KEF, at 5 am, is an amazing hub, being fed with all the US flights on the one hand, and all the European flights on the other, and those pax all transferring to flights to Europe or here.

For two hours the airport hums. Then it's quiet as the grave for the rest of the day.

Could Icelandair's 757's make it to DEN? I don't know. They get to MSP. Boeing lists the range of the 752 as 6800 klm. Is that enough?

And why does it have to be UA? If I were CEO of Frontier - and you should all be very grateful that I'm not - I'd lease a couple of A310's and start the service.

cheers

mariner

DLKAPA · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:42 pm

So if FRA and LHR are moneymakers, and CDG would probably be also, why doesn't Frontier switch some of it's options to A330 or A340 and start up those routes? They could seriously fill some soda cans going over there.

DLKAPA

yanksn4 · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:42 pm

And possibly destroy are of the gain you have made in the tough United States airline Market just to go to Iceland? I think it would be suicide. And besides, I think if Frontier Airlines was to go overseas, I think the Airbus A330 would be a better fit.

btW- I just checked it out, from Denver International Airport to KEF, it is a total distance of 3100nm, so I think it is possible to use a Boeing 757-200 to operate a service like that.

[Edited 2004-02-14 05:46:22]

DLKAPA · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:45 pm

oh yeah, I agree that the A330 would be a better fit for Frontier, and yes, with all of the feeder traffic into DIA from around the country, Plus IFE, they could really make money off of those flights.

DLKAPA

mariner · Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:52 pm

Yanksn4:

As I said, you should all be very grateful that I'm NOT the CEO of Frontier. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But - again - it isn't about Iceland. It is about Europe. Here's the Icelandair website:

http://www.icelandair.com/

Go to "about us" then to "route map" and see how many European destinations they serve. A flight from MSP connects to about a dozen European cities.

Icelandair was the first - and used to be the only - airline offering very low fares from the US to Europe. They were, and are, extremely popular.

The fact that you have to stop in Iceland to get to Europe doesn't matter to many people. How do you think they stay in business?

cheers

mariner

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