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Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:29 am

I was reading through one of my grandmother's scrapbooks, and she had written a travel journal of a trip to Europe in 1971. Being meticulous, she wrote a lot about the routes they traveled and the aircraft involved. On the way there, they flew LBB-DAL-JFK-SNN-FRA; on the return leg, they flew FRA-YQX-JFK-DAL-LBB.

Interestingly, she wrote down the aircraft they flew on each leg, but not the airline (in those days, I'm sure they flew a different airline for some legs). LBB-DAL was on a DC-9, DAL-JFK on a 747, and the JFK-Europe legs were on a 727. I find it interesting that they flew a 747 DAL-JFK, but a 727 across the pond.

In any event, I'm wondering what airline she flew DAL-JFK on the 747. She marveled at how big the plane was, and the fact that there were 14 "stewardesses" on the plane (they weren't called flight attendants back then). My guess is that it was Braniff or Delta. Any ideas?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:39 am

I think that your grandmother mixed up the DAL-JFK and JFK-Europe legs, sorry to say, since I do no recall any airline flying 747s between DAL and JFK. In the 1970s, the Dallas-New York route was controlled by American and Braniff....AA flew 707 and 727 aircraft (likely 727-100s) and maybe the CV990 (not sure when they were retired) around that time and Braniff had 720Bs, 727s and the odd DC8 on the DAL-JFK route. Delta did not fly the Dallas-New York route until the late 1970s or early 1980s, post deregulation. I do not recall any carrier using 727s accross the Atlantic, not enough range, I really do not think that a 727 could fly JFK-SNN with legal reserves for weather and diversions......could it have been a 707 or 720?

AA flew its 747s on transcontinental flights (nonstop or via Chicago) plus the JFK-SJU route.......Dallas did not see regular 747 service as it had not yet developed into the hub that it is today. (strange, huh?) Braniff only had one 747 at the time, and it (big orange) flew DAL-HNL exclusively. Later, Braniff added another 747 in the late 1970s (for the DAL-London route) and many more (742s and 747SPs) in the in its ill-fated expansion plan that led to its bankruptcy and liquidation
 
COTXDFW777AA
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:42 am

I live in LBB who do you think she flew the DC-9 LBB-DAL leg with?

-COTXDFW777AA
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:45 am

American put DC10s on the DAL-LaGuardia route in 1972, but didn't run widebodies between Dallas and New York until after DFW opened in 1974. So she must have had the legs confused.

However, to qualify what Dutchjet said, Love Field did see 747 service from all three of its biggest carriers. Braniff had the daily 747 to and from Honolulu. Delta ran 747s to Atlanta, San Francisco and Los Angeles. American ran 747s to Los Angeles before pulling them in favor of DC10s.

When Love Field closed to traffic in 1974, American had DC10s on flights to Chicago, LaGuardia, Washington Dulles, Memphis, Tucson, El Paso, Los Angeles and San Francisco.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:49 am

Sorry, I meant to say that DAL did not see regular American Airlines 747 service - I do not recall AA flying the 747 into DAL but I could be wrong.

It is true that Braniff flew the 747 on the DAL-HNL route, mentioned above, and DL did fly 747s on the ATL-DAL-LAX/SFO services.
 
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:51 am

OK, some more info that I'm looking at here ...

First, she may not have flown on a DC-9 LBB-DAL; she has her boarding pass here and it just says "Boarding Pass DC-9" on it. So who knows what airline or aircraft that flight was on -- any ideas, CoTXDFW777AA?

Second, the transcontinental flight, I'm just now finding out, was a special charter for military dependents -- they were going to visit my parents, as my father was stationed in Germany at the time. She doesn't mention the exact routing, but she mentions stops at YQX and SNN for refueling. So that makes me think that it might have really been a 727; with those stops and perhaps a lighter load, it could be able to make it.

As far as DAL-JFK, she seems pretty clear in describing the 747 at DAL. Maybe a substitution, maybe another charter? I don't know. I'd ask her, but she passed away five years ago, and even so, I doubt she'd remember. Thanks for your help!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:56 am

WardAir use to fly the 727's to Europe, using a similar routing like you mentioned so it is possible to have a 727's take you to Europe.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:07 am

Could LBB-DAL been on Texas International, or even Continental? Both flew DC9s on intra-Texas routes at the time.

Your latest info on the transatlantic charter is important.......while I do not know of any airlines that used 727s on schedule transatlantic services, some charters (with the fuel stops that you mentioned) could have operated between JFK and European destinations......although JFK-SNN is still a bit long for a 727.....something is telling me that maybe it was a 720 (as I stated above).

The 747 between DAL and JFK is a tough one, maybe it was a special section by AA?
 
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:25 am

I would not be surprised if the transatlantic leg was a 720. Similar numbers, and both narrowbody. But would a 720 really need the refueling stop?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:37 am

The 720s would likely need a fuel stop, especially if fully loaded.

The 720's mission was medium range, with a US transcon the practical limit.....about the same distance as JFK to Shannon, as mentioned by your grandmother. Frankfurt would probably be a little too far, considering reserves and diversion requirements.

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing this with us, it made me think about the past!
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:58 am

LBB-DAL would have been on Continental, Texas International or Braniff. If it was a DC9, it would have been CO or TI, as Dutchjet said.

The 747 could have been an equipment substitution, although on a route dominated by 707s that's one hell of a substition!  Smile

Something else to consider - TWA ran charters into Love Field with 747s throughout the early 1970s. I've seen two photos taken at DAL with TWA 747s in the background - initially it threw me for a curve, because the CAB never granted TWA any routes to Love Field.

Some more info on American's 747 ops at DAL - they started service October 25, 1970, the same day that Delta started 747 operations. The flight was a late-afternoon service to Los Angeles. Predictably, the route was better suited to a widebody trijet, and as soon as American received its DC10s in 1972 they deployed them on Dallas routes. The 747s took over transcon and Caribbean flying, although a surprising number of them flew in and out of PHX in the early 1970s.
 
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:11 pm

I'm betting it was a special TWA flight. With the exception of the LBB-DAL flights, my grandmother doesn't have any boarding passes or anything like that -- just a special military dependents boarding card. Given the large number of servicemen deployed overseas at this time, I wouldn't be surprised if this was some kind of special flight. My dad has told me that whenever he flew overseas in the service, it was usually a TWA charter.

Thanks to everyone for their help!

[Edited 2004-02-22 04:11:53]
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:38 pm

I pulled out an April 1973 OAG and LBB DAL was CO. The OAG shows three lines on that route. Texas International flew Convair 600' s on that route, BN used 727-100 and CO used DC-9-10's.
DL is shown in this book using a 747 DAL-JFK with one stop. probably at ATL.
The book shows AA and DL using DC10's but that cannot be the case in 1971. The ten was not is service yet. There were some DC 8 on the DAL-JFK route.
I can assure you, there was NOT 727's flying JFK to Europe in 1971 or I believe anytime. I cant remember that plane being used to fly the Atlantic by any passenger carrier. If I come across my 1971 OAG or schedules, I will advise.
safe
 
b741
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:55 am

I know Wardair flew a 727 across the pond from Canada with a stop in Iceland during the late 60s, early 70s.
 
HNLFlyBoy
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:06 am

Interesting about the 727 crossing the pond....even with a stop in Iceland, I didn't know it had that kind of range. WOW!
 
atrude777
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:58 am

Didn't Peopleexpress fly a 747 DAL-JFK I could have sworn they did??

Alex
 
luv2fly
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:59 am

PeopleExpress was still several years off!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:30 pm

Peoples Express used EWR. I think they started around 80 or 81.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:37 pm

DL and BN used 747s at DAL just for the record.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:39 pm

PeoplExpress flew DEN-EWR with 747's. On to London from there.


Steve/NewOrleans
 
iluv727s
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RE: Who Flew 747s DAL-JFK In The Early 70s?

Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:41 pm

DAL had lots of heavies in its "day" (pre-DFW)... Grandma could very well be right!

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