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Cory6188
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:35 pm

On the thread about CO starting service to Oslo, there are quite a few rumors floating around that CO plans to start more European service to other destinations, such as SVO. One person mentioned that another "mind-blowing" destination is soon to be announced. Is CO planning any sort of major international expansion any time in the near future?

I think that they could serve many more cities in Europe, such as ATH, IST, SVO, ARN, CPH, and WAW. I think that KEF might also work if they do a 73G or 738 once a week or something. It's only a half-Atlantic flight, so to speak, and they might be able to pull away pax from FI because people would probably feel more comfortable on a US airline, and CO could pull pax from all over the country through EWR.

However, they would be severely limited for all these routes by their low number of widebodies - maybe some leasing might be worthwhile to operate some extra routes. At the moment, almost every single widebody is being used.
 
COTXDFW777AA
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:36 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:40 pm

What ever the rumors are, I wouldn't buy into them. They usually are all talk, remember IAH-Lagos?

-COTXDFW777AA

(I am glad about Oslo, a bold move by a bold company)

-COTXDFW777AA
 
COEWRNJ
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:46 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:42 pm

I could see ATH or IST as new routes in the some what near future. Another one that I could see is possibly BCN. At the present time how limited can their widebodies be? At least the 767's. I know they are running them from EWR-LAX and IAH-LAX so they could pull them from those routes and expand in Europe.
 
Guest

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:45 pm

I think we've had more of these than NW DC-9 replacement topics within the past several months...  Smile.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14933
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:45 pm

They are using 767-200s on flights from EWR-LAX, SJU and IAH-MCO etc..

They can use these 767-200s for some Trans-Atlantic routes, they also have 767-400s operating between Guam and Tokyo. Those too could be brought back and replaced with 757s, even some of the remaining 4-5 757-300s they will be taking delivery of this year could replace the 767-400s from Guam to Tokyo.

So they could probably launch 'about" 4 more 767 long haul Interntaional flights from EWR or IAH with the fleet they have now if they were to juggle their schedules a little, this Summer they are adding Second daily frequencies to both EWR-CDG and EWR-TLV and making IAH-AMS 10Xs weekly without canceling any other flights or adding new widebody aircraft.

Besides that they can utilize more 757s, or eventually excersise some of the remaining options they have for 767-200s and 777s.
 
COTXDFW777AA
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:36 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:50 pm

It is a more likely that CO does pull out some 767s and add a route or two. But, I doubt they expand the fleet until they are back to making profits.

-COTXDFW777AA
 
Guest

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:50 pm

They are using 767-200s on flights from EWR-LAX, SJU and IAH-MCO etc..

The only scheduled summer domestic widebody flying is two B762 flights between EWR/LAX and repositioning flights between IAH/EWR... and BTW, IAH-MCO is a high-density B764...

 
Cory6188
Topic Author
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:51 pm

STT757, I don't mean to start one of these 150+ post threads on what CO might do. I was just curious if there were any immediate plans in the works.
 
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STT757
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:54 pm

Only Speculation, you want facts you have to go to Houston.

CO has been burned by folks who work for them spilling the beans, ie. EWR-HKG.

The people in the know are less likely to talk openly then before, but they still can drop hints.
 
Guest

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:07 pm

For Summer 2004, CO will add frequency to EWR-BHX (2xB752), EWR-TLV (2xB777) and IAH-AMS (2xB764, but only on select days of the week). In addition, they’ll inaugurate EWR-EDI (B752) and EWR-OSL. I’d be surprised if we saw more than one more destination, if any, added for Summer 2004 (it’s getting ‘late in the game.’) I certainly don’t think we’ll see the rapid expansion that’s continually speculated on a.net.

Estimated Widebody Equipment Rotation...
Boeing 767-400ER -- 13/16 (*5 a/c are in a high-density configuration)
EWR/BRU (one aircraft)
EWR/DUB (one aircraft)
EWR/F CO (one aircraft)
EWR/FRA (one aircraft)
EWR/GLA (one aircraft)
EWR/HNL (one aircraft)
2xGUM/NRT (one aircraft)
HNL/GUM (one aircraft)
IAH/AMS (one aircraft) *second flight on select dates
2xIAH/HNL (two aircraft)
IAH/OGG (one aircraft)
LAX/HNL (one aircraft)

Boeing 767-200ER -- 9/10
EWR-CDG (one aircraft)
EWR-GRU (1.5 aircraft)
EWR-GVA (one aircraft)
2xEWR-LAX (two aircraft)
EWR-MXP (one aircraft)
EWR-ZRH (one aircraft)
IAH/GRU-GIG (1.5 aircraft)

Boeing 777-200ER -- 18/18
EWR-AMS (one aircraft)
EWR-CDG (one aircraft)
EWR-HKG (2.5 aircraft)
2xEWR-LGW (two aircraft)
EWR-MAD (one aircraft)
EWR-MAN (one aircraft)
EWR-NRT (two aircraft)
2xEWR-TLV (2.5 aircraft)
IAH/CDG (one aircraft)
2xIAH/LGW (two aircraft)
IAH/NRT (two aircraft)

(B752 flying to Europe: EWR to 2xBHX, EDI, LIS, OSL and SNN; CLE to LGW)
 
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STT757
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:11 pm

"I certainly don’t think we’ll see the rapid expansion that’s continually speculated on a.net"

Certainly not all this Summer, but 25-30 Trans-Atlantic Destinations for CO in the next 5 years is not out of the question (imo).
 
DFWMEX
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:35 am

CO International Expansion

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:14 pm

SVO sounds very logical as I read that Aeroflot will be joining possibly SkyTeam as well as Continental. Codesharing to/from SVO sounds logical for both airlines. Great if they have it out of IAH.

[Edited 2004-02-25 05:14:53]
 
A340Spotter
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:52 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:15 pm

Greetings,

Lagos has been considered and the city isn't dead, but not likely in the near future. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if CO added any further Euro cities this year, but come 2005, when IAH opens Terminal E's Customs/Immigrations facility, then maybe you'll see some more...One of the cities mentioned by someone above has been kicked around as well from EWR...Another one hasn't been (at least this time in this thread)...

A340
 
Guest

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:19 pm

Certainly not all this Summer, but 25-30 Trans-Atlantic Destinations for CO in the next 5 years is not out of the question (imo).

I think a conservative number is up to 15 new transatlantic destinations within 5 years (and even that seems pretty generous)… 25-30 seems unrealistic. But nobody can predict the economics several years from now, nor does anybody know if CO would be willing to purchase used equipment for immediate expansion; after all, they cancelled the remainder of their B764 order…
 
COIAH99
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:41 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:21 pm

I personally don't think you'll see any major announcement on new routes for the rest of the year. Like stated above when the FIS building does open up in '05 you might see some more, especially out of IAH.
But on the other hand I didn't expect OSL to happen either.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:34 pm

15-20 new routes !!! ??

With what aircraft ?

J

[Edited 2004-02-25 06:35:12]
 
behramjee
Posts: 5275
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:40 pm

If it is a mind boggling destination then my bet is on one of the following 3 routes :

1. EWR-IST nonstop...I would prefer this route to be one aircraft B 777 IAH-EWR-IST!!!
2. EWR-LOS nonstop
3. IAH-LOS nonstop
 
Airmech56
Posts: 45
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:35 am

I can definitely see EWR-ATH for the Olympics this year. It would be great timing to start that route. I heard that CO is waiting on gov't approval due to ATH new airport. But don't get me wrong rumours are rumours I haven't seen any good sources in writing to justify this information. I personally would love this route because Greece sounds like a nice vacation...lol
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2771
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:16 am

Don't hold your breath for IST. The State Department has a Travel Warning in effect advising U.S. citizens to defer nonessential travel to Turkey, and tourism--already on the decline--is plummeting due to the recent bombings. It's not really a hot business destination, either.

As for ATH and SVO, neither is a particularly high-yield market. NYC-ATH traffic is very seasonal and leisure-oriented. NYC-SVO may have a bit more business traffic, but also lots of low-yield VFR.

A 762 to PRG might make a bit more sense, to take advantage of CSA's connections to the rest of Eastern Europe, but who knows...
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:45 am

We used to have an agreement with CSA where they'd operate an A310 EWR-PRG with our code on that and several onward connections. Numbers were decent on that route, I'd half-expect to see it back (opb CSA) once we fully enter SkyTeam.

As for our exact widebody routes, check here (.pdf) monthly for the latest scheduled operations.

Domestic
http://www.cocargo.com/cocargo/tariffs/domwidebodysched.pdf

International
http://www.cocargo.com/cocargo/tariffs/intwidebodysched.pdf
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 2014
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:03 am

Apparently officials from CO (And AA) have been talking to people at Bristol (BRS) about launching transatlantic flights. I know this happens all the time, but given that CO is launcing EDI this year, not beyond the realms of possibility that any of BRS, CWL, NCL or a return to STN could happen in the next year or so. If any did happen would be 757 operation as well.

As to the widebody situation I think the fact that BHX will be a twice daily 757 operation this summer shows how CO is looking at adding capacity through frequency, rather than just a bigger aircraft. If they needed to release more widebodies GLA and DUB could go double daily 757 as required.
 
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STT757
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:47 am

"I think a conservative number is up to 15 new transatlantic destinations within 5 years (and even that seems pretty generous)… 25-30 seems unrealistic"

When I said 25-30 I meant including "existing" routes, so 6 to 11 new Trans-Atlantic routes within the next 3-5 years, probably within 3 years.

I think CO's longest 757 route would be about 3,800 miles, within that range you could fly EWR to..

Dusseldorf, London Stansted, Newcastle, Hamburg, Lyon, Barcelona, Casablanca (!), Basel, Bristol, Cardiff, Seville, Malaga, Copenhagen etc..

Berlin is 3,900 miles.
 
Guest

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:25 pm

Artysman,
STT757 wrote '25-30,' so I countered with 'up to 15... even though that seems overly generous.' I'm thinking we'll see a maximum (average) of three new destinations over the next five years, so that's how I came up with 15... but again, it's overly generous. 25-30 is unrealistic, even if including new flights from CLE and IAH...
 
CALMSP
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:56 pm

I would love to see us open up Seville, Malaga, Barcelona, notto mention a second EWR-MAD, and start up IAH-MAD, since I will be moving to IAH next week. That would be great.
 
fraT
Posts: 1242
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:35 pm

"I think CO's longest 757 route would be about 3,800 miles, within that range you could fly EWR to..
Dusseldorf, London Stansted, Newcastle, Hamburg, Lyon, Barcelona, Casablanca (!), Basel, Bristol, Cardiff, Seville, Malaga, Copenhagen etc.."

CO will not make the mistake twice to fly to DUS with a 757. They burned their fingers when they did in 2001 and finally canceled the route ater 9/11. They got so much bad press in Germany after switching from a DC10 to 757. LH was really good in bitching against the aircraft type. Also DUS is close to the max range and often enough they flew with empty seats or even had to make a refuling stop.
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:27 pm

Hey CALMSP- Ditto on BCN. That's been highly speculated.

 
COIAH99
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:41 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:53 am

CALMSP...
Good luck on your move to IAH...Are you transferring to IAH w/ CO?
Anyway I would like to see IAH-FRA.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14933
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RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:40 am

"CO will not make the mistake twice to fly to DUS with a 757."

Yeah well Lufthansa is a bunch of hypocrites, because now they fly BBJs and A319s to EWR and ORD from DUS and Munich.

If you enlarge this picture from 2001 at EWR you will see a Lufthansa ad in the backdrop located on the New Jersey Turnpike, sorry I couldn't find a better picture. Basically the ad says "The only airline with "all" widebody service from EWR to Germany".


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe Pries - A.T. TEAM



[Edited 2004-02-26 17:51:18]
 
airNondo
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 2:09 pm

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:14 am

forget SVO or IST...CO will just code-share with Delta, ATH possibly due to the olympics...though that's also a possible delta code-share. Look for them to branch into territory secured by other alliances...like WAW or VIE though neither of these would work with the 757 and don't know if they could support a 777. A likely 757 option could be seville or the UK options discussed above, or maybe Copenhagen or St. Petersburg (with Delta code-sharing on CO flights).
~mtc, nondo
 
asianguy767
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:17 pm

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:23 am

I personally would like to see CO extend its current flight to HKG onward to SIN/BKK/KUL/CGK and frequency increased to daily. Besides Europe, CO could expand more in Asia and not jus leave the Asian network to NW esp since Continental Micronesia is quite well established in this part of the world.
 
COIAHLGW
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:11 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:20 am

I would love to see IAH-BRS. Or even IAH-EWR-BRS. But neither will ever happen!
 
trijetfan1
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:29 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:27 am

Any new CLE flights?!?!?
I would love to see any new flights out of CLE!!
 
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airzim
Posts: 1583
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:30 am

Could always add more fuel tanks to the 757's.

The 757's have crap freight anyway so who cares about off loading some cargo for extra gas to fly to Berlin, Vienna, Warsaw etc.
 
VC745D
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:52 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:38 am

Yeah well Lufthansa is a bunch of hypocrites, because now they fly BBJs and A319s to EWR and ORD from DUS and Munich.

That billboard is three years old. I'd take those LH/PrivatAir narrowbodies over anything of any size CO or anyone else could offer between here & Germany. No Y cabin=civilized flying.
 
flyguy1
Posts: 1819
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 1999 9:45 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:49 am

Yeah well Lufthansa is a bunch of hypocrites, because now they fly BBJs and A319s to EWR and ORD from DUS and Munich.
Customers who want widebody service to Germany, can fly out of JFK. There are 4 widebody services per day to choose from.
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:50 am

I think that KEF might also work if they do a 73G or 738 once a week or something. It's only a half-Atlantic flight, so to speak, and they might be able to pull away pax from FI because people would probably feel more comfortable on a US airline, and CO could pull pax from all over the country through EWR.


Maybe on the once-a-week run, but I would still highly doubt it.

First of all, most of IF's passengers from the US are connecting to London or some other European destination. They occasionally offer awesome fares out of BWI and MSP that can make the 3 AM layover at KEF well worth it. If CO wanted to do this, they'd either have to route it EWR-KEF-LGW (which won't happen), or, as you suggest, reduce the frequency to somewhere around once a week.

The problem with the once-a-week option is that there's nothing to do in Iceland for a week. It's a beautiful, scenic country, but you can see all of it in about three days. I doubt people will book a one-week trip on CO just to see Iceland. I might be wrong here, but I just don't see that happening. IF currently serves that market well, so don't expect a US carrier to bear the cost of going into this tiny market.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23462
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:50 am

Lots of rumours about a BRS-NYC service just now(AA or CO). Also a NCL-NYC service doesnt appear to be too far from frutition(CO or DL) if rumours are true.
CWL, LTN and STN rumours are nowhere to be seen just now.
 
trijetfan1
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:29 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:55 am

Why would they want to go to LTN or STN ,they already go to LGW
 
gkirk
Posts: 23462
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:58 am

LTN and STN serve north London
 
VC745D
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:52 am

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:59 am

Re the possibility of a CO service to KEF: PA flew 720Bs JFK-KEF at one point. Maybe a PA historian here can give a time period ('60s'70s?) and frequency.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6720
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:50 am

First off, are you guys are kidding me.
"15-20 new routes in the next 5 years" What world are you living in? Is CO going to become the world's largest airline by 2009? Doubt it. Is EWR going to become the nations largest int'l gateway by 2009? Doubt it. Is CO going to order 20 more 767s and 777s? Yes. That sounds right. And bring back the DC-10s and the 747-200s! Yes. And another 20-gate concourse at EWR. Of course!

By the way--I heard, NW just placed an order for 200 new A318s to replace the DC-9s.
HA!

PJ
 
Guest

RE: More CO International Expansion?

Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:52 pm

First off, are you guys are kidding me.

It’s certainly not unreasonable for CO to add three routes per year over the next five years… of course, many of those routes – and maybe some existing ones – could very well be cut…

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