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KLM11
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:30 pm

Go with seat 21F. Looks GREAT!!!  Smile Smile

--KLM11
BENAIRE - The Refined Airline
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:31 pm

Boeing4ever,

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just the laugh I needed tonight. Thanks!  Big thumbs up

Right though, I guess we wouldn't hear him necessarily praising Boeing's new 7E7 project....do you think he may be a lil afraid of the possibilities?

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
L-188
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:33 pm

I was wondering when Bagdad Bob was going to get another job.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
757KSLC
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:02 pm

Yea, lets listen to Mr. Leahy, an Airbus Rep. lecture us on his extensive knowledge of Boeings current position. I trust his surely un-bias opinion of Boeing as much as I trust Congress in an election year.

Seriously, Boeing and Airbus go back and forth with each other like this all the time. Boeing has had a successful and basically unchallenged monopoly over the largest commercial airliner, the 747, since its first flight in 1969. I'm actually surprised it has taken this long for another company to produce something to match or rival the 747, but we should not be surprised. I believe the A380 will do very well when it becomes available, eventually Boeing will answer back with something even bigger and better, and then a few years down the road again Airbus, or another company will take back the lead. This has happened with smaller airliners for years. We should not be surprised to see this kind of race starting with the "super jumbos". Boeing won't go bankrupt by the A380, and Airbus won't by the 7E7. They are both respectable companies that will always come up with something bigger and better than the other. Producing something better and cheaper than the other guy. That is what most companies do, and that's what makes the world turn.
 
jwenting
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:56 pm

ah, our Airbus High Priest Keesje is at it again I see.

Airbus is God and Keesje is his prophet  Laugh out loud
I wish I were flying
 
N79969
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:03 am

"Boeing won't go bankrupt by the A380, and Airbus won't by the 7E7."

Airbus cannot go bankrupt period.
 
Leskova
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:12 am

757KSLC : "Boeing won't go bankrupt by the A380, and Airbus won't by the 7E7."
N79969: Airbus cannot go bankrupt period.

I agree with both of you... but I'll add the obvious: I'd say that Boeing also cannot go bankrupt - just as Airbus cannot.

Besides the constant bickering (I'm not speaking about a.net-members here, but of Airbus and Boeing... just thought I'd clarify that...  Big grin) heading over the Atlantic in both directions (even if Airbus is somewhat ahead in that point at the moment - and I certainly don't mean that in a pro-Airbus way...) I think both A and B are very well aware of the fact that they need the respective other one: no-one likes buying from a monopolist, and I'm quite certain that there are enough outside financial means available to either one, should they ever be threatened with becoming financially lopsided.

As for the theoretical side of things, EADS could go downhill just as much as Boeing could, but in either case - as I've stated above - I highly doubt that it would ever come to that, at least in the current duopolistic market situation.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
F4N
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:14 am

To all:

In all actuality, nobody really knows at this point although I suspect we will find out this summer when Farnborough commences. Of course, it is exactly the opportunity John Leahy wants in that it allows him free reign to BS in any way the opportunity suggests. To digress a bit, the last year has seen me seconded by my Dept. head to Sales & Marketing in order to provide them more tech support. I had previously never had any real exposure to this part of business. Let me tell you that for these people(I mean any sales people) to be successful, they not only need to know their own and the competitive products, but also need to have more shit than a herd of elephants, be sneaky and underhanded as weasels and be able to spin more tales than the Bush re-election commitee. The reason for saying all this is that it shows why John Leahy is saying and doing the things he is: to promote his organization and play down the competitor.

Actually, Airbus is doing everything they reasonably can to dump on 7e7. In the absense of anything other than Boeing's own figures and statements, Airbus (via Mr. Leahy & others) is trying to suggest that 7e7 really isn't anything other than a warmed-over Boeing "me-too" A330 and that the customer won't get anything they couldn't get now. They are hinting at the inevitable risks of Boeing backing out or that the promised performance and economies won't really be there for the money.This kind of propaganda is really normal it seems although the high profile the Boeing-Airbus rivalry magnifies it greatly. It all seems shrill and hollow, but at this point Airbus has no choice. Boeing is about to play a trump card in the midst of the Airbus' best market(similar to A380 on the 747) and I think Airbus knows it. The question is, how to respond while not giving any credibility to 7e7 until it can be touched, felt and seen.

Interesting...

regards,

F4N
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:24 am

Leskova, that was one of the best posts I've seen from you yet. Excellent observations.

Both EADS Airbus and the Boeing Co. are the world's most prolific planemakers, without a doubt. I mean, let's face it...I would be rather surprised NOT to hear propaganda streaming from both sides. Why? It's good business!! Neither manufacturer expects their new product to force the competing company into oblivion. As Leskova pointed out, that's even worse for business.

I believe realistically we'll see the A vs B battle teeter back-and-forth for many years, somewhat like two equal weights on a balance. If Airbus or Boeing had a monopoly in the large passenger jet market, it would be utterly disastrous for the aviation industry. Gone would be the mega-deep discounts and ultra-sweet lease packages offered as incentives to carriers today. Jobs would be lost around the world, and no competition (at least for awhile) would mean that there would be less motivation for innovation in the field.

I do know that if I were making an order for large jets and had to choose between the two manufacturers, I'd certainly want to hear a company that stood behind its aircraft, like both manufacturers do...even if some of it is exactly what the name says, "propaganda."
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:43 am

Irrelevant what Airbus thinks.

It is the customers who will decide. You don't hear the top customer's CEO ramming on about how the A330 would be good in its fleet would you? Singapore Airlines Limited's CEO Chew Choon Seng instead commented on how there is a place for both the A380 and the B7E7.

One should also argue that when a customer like that does not choose the A330 (and also 767) for "some long-haul markets have thinner traffic volumes,"* there is something 'wrong' with the A330 that obviously the B7E7 though on paper, can fulfill.

Oh and for the record, I am neither an Airbus or Boeing fan (alphabetical listing). I just want them to get the best planes on the market and fast so that they can be utilised.  Big grin

* - Singapore Airlines Limited News Release on 26 Febuary 2004
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
netdhaka
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:02 pm

Hamlet69,

Sorry about the confusion. I was reading Airlineworld magazine February 2004 issue the other day. In page 26 and 27 it mentioned deliveries for both Airbus and Boeing for the month of November (NOT January as I mentioned earlier- Unintentional mistake  Innocent ). Airbus 41, Boeing 28.
 
ltbewr
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:17 pm

Lets face it, while airlines would love a a/c as efficient as the 7E7, it isn't available now, nor can many airlines, especially in the US, afford it now or in the near future. There are many mid-range a/c, as well as many 747's, and smaller 737's, 757's, plus some Airbus' in the used market available for much cheaper prices than new. You also have many commitments for current model Airbus and Boeing a/c's in the next several years, as well as reductions of those orders too. Of course, A & B make sales pitches that each of their a/c better than the other co's similar model. What will the 7E7 and A-380 cost their co's to develop and will they be able to recover their investments and still sell at a affordable prices with operational efficency to offset the higher costs to existing models.
 
ND
Posts: 270
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:06 pm

If KEESJE was trying to Market Airbus, this would hardly be the context to do so. I don't think any of us are in the position to buy an A380...
ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
 
Guest

RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:30 pm

What do you expect him to say.

How about just keeping his pie hole shut so he doesn't look like an ass in 2008 when the orders are flying in due to a sharp increase in fuel prices, leaving the industry with no choice but to purchase high efficiency aircraft.
 
BestWestern
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:01 pm

BoeingGoingGone... The price of oil going up has another effect - it reduces economic output which will drive down demand for air travel.

The aircraft will sell, and quite well, if Boeing can stand by their CASM reduction claims. Included in this is the cost of the aircraft purchase amortized over twenty odd years.

But I still don't think their will be a rush to buy these aircraft in the US, where the market is downsizing fleet size to a more economic 738 and 739, with the 757 being used on marginal trans-atlantic routes, such as EWR FBU and BOS MAN.

Can anyone tell me the price differential between the 738 and the 7E7?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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solnabo
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:09 pm

Baghdad Bob to TLS??
Puhleezee....thats really grown-up talk!!??
Its the same old nag: Us/B wanna be the Top Dog, right?

Michael//SE  Big thumbs up
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Guest

RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:17 pm

737-800 is listed at $58.5M to $61M

7E7 - $125M

Last price on a 767-400 (Same size bird) - $126.5M-$138M in 2002 add roughly 2.9% per year to the cost.

As far as driving down demand for travel... Did ya hear? The baby boomers are retiring by then. They will account for most of the air travel. Good thing is more jobs for anyone who is under 40 right now! Of course, they will suck the government dry of social security and medicaid leaving America broke.

Bastards!
 
BestWestern
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:29 pm

2 738's or 1 7E7..... umm... on US trans-continental I know what DL, AA and CO will pick - more frequencies, more destinations, better use of capital???

Look what British Airways did in London by downsizing from the 757 767 to the A3xx. This allowed them to increase frequency (attracting more corporate travellers) whilst maintaining capacity, and be profitable in 2003 - withoug government subsidies. They have done the same with the 777 to east coast US business cities - more frequencies - similar capacity - to the detriment of VS and UA.

Another problem with the US economy is the big deficit that is around today.... Somebody is going to pay for that in 10 years time.... Todays dollar weakness is short-term, and could damage the economy in the long run - stability is what is needed - not pre-election tampering with the economy.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Guest

RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:38 pm

The actual deficit amount is the largest in history in actual dollars, however the deficit is no where near the largest as a percentage of the economy or in today's dollars.

I'm more concerned about the baby boomer generation sucking the coffers dry. Their social security will rest firmly on my shoulders. That sux. I love the way they want to get every hand me out program in that they can before they are out of the public picture. Won't they be shocked when we cut and slash because we just won't take it anymore. Scaring seniors to benefit their own ass in 10 years. Nice people!
 
LMP737
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:42 pm

Solnabo:

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Continental
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:03 am

That couldn't have been anymore biased....

co
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:46 am

Boeing has asked Rolls, GE, and Pratt to look into desigining their 7E7 proposal so they can swapped interchangeably in order to protect the 7E7 resale value.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001867380_boeing28.html

Frank,

I see your point. But I think either Airbus or Boeing would love to have and actively seek market power. A firm can achieve that without being a monopolist. The benefits are considerable.

The US government probably won't let Boeing fail now. But that is only because it watched the EU (a government) help push McDonnell Douglas (a private American company) over the edge into failure. It is not because the US government fosters commercial aerospace in the manner that Europe does.

If the 7E7 does indeed sap Airbus mid-size airplanes sales the way the 330-200 has sapped 767 sales, I would bet money that EU will provide public money for free or cheap yet again to prevent politically expensive layoffs in Tolouse and elsewhere.
 
Leskova
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:24 am

N79969, I doubt that the EU, or the governments that make it up, are in a position at the moment to actually give Airbus any more money - of course that may change until 2008, or whenever it might be necessary...

I'll admit that the EU's track-record is not as clean as I'd like it to be in this area, but I'll stay away from the part of the discussion that might arise this (you know - the usual discussion, as in "AI orders A340s"... Big grin).

I absolutely agree with you about your assesment of why the US government would not let Boeing fail - that is actually just what I meant with my comment earlier that Boeing would not be able to go bankrupt as well... although I do have a bit of a problem of giving Airbus too much "credit" for McDD failing - I'd say that they were already heading downhill through the fact that they didn't seem to be all that intent on developing derivatives of the products they had... but I'll agree that Airbus certainly helped clear their path down the hill.

But to get back to the subject of money - I'm still surprised as to why the US isn't doing more to address their grievances about Airbus-financing from EU governments... either it actually does comply with the treaties that are in existance between the EU and the US, or they're holding back any complaints as bargaining material for trade talks: but especially in the light of the introduction of tariffs by the EU against the US (regarding the WTO ruling about the tax breaks) I think it is strange that they're staying as quiet as they are...

Or, as the pro-Airbus-side of my heart would say: maybe they're staying quiet because they don't want some of their own practices to come out... Big grin

Then again - who really knows what's going on - at least Schröder and Bush seem to be able to sit in the same room again without both of them thinking of how to best get as far away as possible as quickly as possible...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
dairbus
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:55 am

Boeing4ever

Love your post with Bagdad Bob!  Laugh out loud
"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
 
ATCDWC
Posts: 12
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:07 am

Just another Airbus executive trying to play mind games with Boeing. Its just a bunch of hot air for the media to suck. LOL If you ask me sounds like he's scared of the 7E7 which would explain his silly comments.  Laugh out loud
 
ltbewr
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:22 am

A follow up on my previous post here. Perhaps Airbus is fearful that Boeing will get a jump ahead with the 7E7 if done as scheduled. Airbus had some model a/c that jumped ahead of Boeing, especially with the A300-310 series over the 767 and earlier and the use of 'fly by wire' in almost all of it's a/c models (although there were some problems at first with the fly by wire systems).
As to economics, right now the the exchange rates now in favor of Europe due to our gov't deficit and other issues, of about 1 British pound = US$1.88 and US$1.25 to 1 Euro, a change of over 25% in the last year, means US products are cheaper for the Europeians and there products are more expensive. This is further complicated by the manufacturing of certain a/c components in US for Airbus and in Europe for Boeing.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:29 am

Perhaps Airbus is fearful that Boeing will get a jump ahead with the 7E7

I think Airbus is fearful that they've tied all their development efforts into a massive aircraft which is stuggling badly in the sales department and may never make money. They *need* their business model to be correct, or they will be hoist upon their own petard.

Although I agree that the 747's days are probably numbered -- but then again, I think all larger aircraft are an uphill battle. Midsize is where it's at, IMO.

Steve
 
Ants
Posts: 118
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:46 pm

No doubt it will make some of you shake your heads to hear that this guy John Leahy received the "Publisher’s Award for Outstanding Contribution to Aerospace" at the 11th Aerospace Industry Awards a couple of days ago in Singapore.  Laugh out loud

There's a photo of him beaming with joy at :

John Leahy - Award Winner!!!

(he's the one with the yellow tie).

[Edited 2004-02-29 07:50:18]
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:19 am

Frank,

I think the reason as to why the US is not doing more with respect to this issue is because it has chosen other trade fights on which to use limited political capital. I also think that most US politicians took Boeing's success for granted and did not pay much attention to what was happening with Europe. President Clinton did bring up subsidies for the A380 but dropped the issue for some reason.

Like I said before, I would bet money that the EU will have money for Airbus any time Airbus wants it.

Just consider the A380 for example. The airplane is not necessary for Airbus survival and it is a niche product. Airbus wanted it simply to challenge Boeing's dominance at the high end. But they could not do it on their own (like with every other model they sell) and got $3 billion from the EU to develop it.

If the 7E7 actually eats into Airbus bread & butter sales, the EU will likely flood Airbus with cash and attack Boeing vociferously. Consider that Romano Prodi whined to the Japanese PM when a private Japanese company (ANA) replaced A320 with B737NG. I have no doubt that such 'diplomacy' will only grow more commonplace from Europe.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11884
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:00 am

ROFL,

Getting hot under the collar over a Press release is hilarious. Does anyone think that Airbus' Chief Commercial Officer is going to give an unbiased and well informed view of the aviation industry? Be realistic here, its his job to release comments like this, its pure propaganda and there are equivalents in all other manufacturers. Boeing are guilty of exactly the same, the only people who eat this up are uninformed members of the public.

Michael O'Leary comes up with BS like this all the time, and the same people here who are in disbelief at Leahy's comments eat up what O'Leary comes out with, which is even more laughable (whilst vaguely related).

I'm not backing these comments, there is no basis for them except loose statistics and assumptions, but thats what he's payed for. Taking what is said with a pinch of salt is not very wise. Airbus are well aware of the market situation, as are Boeing and they make decisions accordingly, if they acted upon statements like this then there wouldn't be an Airbus today.



 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20089
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RE: "Nobody Is Raising Their Hands For The 7E7"

Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:04 am

BoingGoingGone said:
How about just keeping his pie hole shut so he doesn't look like an ass in 2008 when the orders are flying in due to a sharp increase in fuel prices, leaving the industry with no choice but to purchase high efficiency aircraft.


Only a.net members will remember what he said 4 years previously.  Big grin The public is always myopic about politicians/businessmen.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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