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lehpron
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Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:12 pm

Were there any companies, airlines or other major players in the industry that favored against the coming of jets and/or simply did not invest in them and lost?

[I'm trying to make a real-word analogy to a possible economic reasons against Sonics i.e. it ain't a game for regionals to play until they are able to bank, obviously tech changes and so does the way we do business...] -- don't answer that question unless you can't answer the topic's question.

Anyway, did anyone get done up the ass way back in the day? Did any airlines prefer not to buy jets whether they could afford it or not only to loose out to other airlines that had them, etc?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
flyf15
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:16 pm

McDonnell Douglas....
 
lehpron
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:22 pm

ahh..I was not expecting that. But then we can include Lockheed, but they are successful in defence contracts. Did anyone buy General Dynamics, or did they die too? They died from San Diego that was for sure, damn buildings are still seeking reposession...


What about engine part manufacturing? Someone had to have depended on props?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:06 pm

Well, the big transatlantic ocean liner firms (Cunard-White Star, United States Lines, etc.) were just destroyed within about 10 years of the 707's arrival. The ship-building industry then transitioned into cruising, and we're only now seeing an uptick in transatlantic traffic with the Queen Mary 2.

I would imagine some reciprocating engine firms were hit pretty hard. You don't see too many Lycoming products on commercial aircraft, for example. Lockheed's Constellations and Electras and the Douglas DC-7s were pushed out by the jets fairly quickly. I'm really not familiar with prop aircraft, so I'll stop before I get myself into trouble.

One factor that could complicate (re)introduction of an SST is premium passenger cannibalization. An SST would probably attract a grossly disproportionate share of high-fare passengers, which would help mitigate its higher costs, but siphoning off these pax would undoubtedly hurt the subsonic fleet. After all, the airlines earn most of their profits with F and J class tickets.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:41 pm

Trans Ocean Airlines operated a fleet of Boeing 377 between the west coast and Hawaii in late 1950's. When Pan Am and UA moved in with jets they were unable to compete. I believe Pan Am made some demands to Boeing about not selling to them, a deal that would be totally illegal now a days.

Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
broke
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:17 pm

In the engine department,

Curtiss-Wright was one of the largest manufacturers of aircraft powerplants and airplanes. They did not adapt to the jet age very well and became to a relatively small company producing aircraft components.

Westinghouse started out big in jet engines, but the J-40 engine program failed and they left the aviation market.

Allis-Chamlers is a company that tried jets but never made it at all.

Airlines

TWA's problems went back to the days when Howard Hughes controlled the company and restricted their ability to completely transition into jets, which put them in a competitive disadvantage thereafter.
 
Guest

RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:23 pm

Amtrak. Still sucking us dry since the Government took it over.
 
jplenny
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:38 am

Did anyone buy General Dynamics, or did they die too? They died from San Diego that was for sure, damn buildings are still seeking reposession...
---------------------

General Dynamics is alive and well. For those who don't know, they own the Gulfstream division, which makes business jets.

On the defense contracting side, they are all over the place, from marine systems to land combat equipment, plus a lot of communications stuff.

http://www.generaldynamics.com/
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:38 am

I believe that at the time of the dawning of the jet age, Howard Hughes was running TWA. He had no faith in jets and would not commit TWA to a jet program. He was forced from the board and, as an corporation, TWA had to play a catch up game for the reminder of its corporate life.

Douglas Aircraft (not MD) was caught in a bad situation. Its not so much that they didn't want to commit to a jet program, they really didn't have the money to invest in a jet program. Or, better said, their jet program drained them.

Interesting question, though, its difficult to say that any companies, in the US anyway, actually failed because they failed to embrace the jet age. It's hard to say that pax sailing lines and/or railroads fit the bill, how could they embrace the jet age? (besides, many of those companies are still around)

TWA is to closest example I can think of, and its failure to embrace jets is only a contributing cause of its demise. There are, however, a few examples of companies that failed to meet the jet age successfully. Or, the company direction was altered drastically by unsuccessfully meeting the jet age.
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
Arrow
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:11 am

"I believe that at the time of the dawning of the jet age, Howard Hughes was running TWA. He had no faith in jets and would not commit TWA to a jet program. He was forced from the board and, as an corporation, TWA had to play a catch up game for the reminder of its corporate life."

I'm not sure that's true. Howard Hughes was completely smitten with the Avro Canada Jetliner -- to the point of having it around for him to play with for a while -- and was apparently close to putting in an order for it in the early 50s. Then the Canadian government ordered Avro to concentrate on building CF-100 fighters because of the Korean conflict, and the jetliner died. It didn't help that Trans-Canada Airlines also wouldn't bite. But Hughes loved flying it, apparently, and thought it had a great future. He just didn't understand Canadian government capacity for incompetence. A few years later, they also killed the Avro Arrow supersonic fighter.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:13 am

Hey, I just thought of one. How about Piper Aircraft. They failed to produce a biz jet. Today's New Piper Aircraft is not the same company that gave us the Cub.
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:24 am

Arrow

You may have just explained why Hughes was hesitant on jet aircraft. His experience early on may have led him to believe that jets would be a drag on corporate governance. Cutting edge can be very fickle and not that way run an airline?

(think: Spruce Goose, Avro Canada Jetliner, Comet)
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
VC745D
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:32 am

Capital Airlines. Its order for 75 Viscount 700s (entered svc 1955) was too big--as revolutionary as the move was, within four years CA had too much invested in them to afford pure jets. Later orders for Comet 4s and CV880s (and Electras) were cancelled; it defaulted on Viscount payments to Vickers; UA bought it, merging it into its operations in 1961. CA leased two B720s from UA (in UA livery) for some months prior to the end.
 
EconoBoy
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:35 am

Bristol Aircraft Company: it was a successful manufacturer of radial piston engines and WWII fighters, but the Brabazon helped kill it off as an independent company (despite the Brittannia). The Brabazon was to carry 100 passengers across the Atlantic in luxury, and be powered by eight piston engines. It first flew at time the first comets/ 707s and DC9 were getting off the ground - obviously, it was a non-contender.

http://www.aviationarchive.org.uk/stories/pages.php?enum=GE121&pnum=0&maxp=7
 
dc8jet
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:10 pm

Eddie Rickenbacker of Eastern lacked faith in pure jets and bought too many Electras. When he did order DC-8s he delayed the order to wait for more powerful engines. This gave Delta and National an advantage when they received their DC-8s as Eastern was almost a year behind them
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:17 pm

Apparently Capital was in financial difficulty before they purchased the Viscounts and were using them to trade out of it, as they were a big money maker for almost all airlines who operated it.

Unfortunately, they had uneconomical Lockheed Constellations at the time which were losing money hand over fist, and they couldn't sell them, along with a host of other problems.

As such, I wouldn't say that the purchase of the Viscounts had anything to do with Capital's demise.

Sorry for the slightly off topic post... just don't believe that reply 12 had much to do with the question posed.

Cheers,

Trent.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
F9Fan
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RE: Who Was Put Out Of Business By The Jet-age?

Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:08 pm

The passenger ship industry wasn't killed off by the jet age, but rather transformed by it. Rather than concentrating on the ship as transportation, the ship itself became the destination. The airlines were transformed from competitors into partners with the airlines ferrying thousands of cruise passengers to and from the home ports of the ships every week. The ships themselves have evolved, also. Prior to 1996, the largest passenger ship ever built was the Queen Elizabeth at around 80,000 Gross Registered Tons. Since then, over a dozen ships have been launched that are over 100,000 GRT with larger and larger ships being designed as we speak.

The passenger railroad industry was done in not only by the jet age, but the interstate highway system devastated rail travel as well. By the 1970s, the railroads were begging the government to bail them out of the passenger rail travel business, and thus Amtrak was born. Other than the northeast urban corridor from Washington, DC to Boston, Amtrak remains tremendously unprofitable and relies on heavy government subsidies.

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