UA744KSFO
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WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:05 am

Very interesting! US Airways Chairman Siegel says yesterday that WN would only be going to PHL "to kill us", and today, WN announces 14 additional non-stops out of PHL, including service to the West Coast and Florida. What do you think the end result of this war will be? If it is WN, do you think that any US airline will offer Transatlantic service if US does go bust? If not, will anyone else move in to challenge WN?
 
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PA110
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:11 am

US has more to worry about than just WN. With the absolute highest cost structure in the industry, US needs to worry about competition on ALL fronts, not just WN. At this point, it is unlikely that US can hold onto PHL and still make a profit. It might be wiser for them to abandon PHL and regroup in PIT and CLT, while devising a new business plan to avoid collapse. At this point, a second trip to Chapter11 seems very likely. Let's just hope it isn't Chapter7 for the sake of the hardworking employees.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:13 am

Call me crazy (OK, I already did), but I don't think that Southwest will stay at Philadelphia much longer than it will take to kill of US Airways (primarily due to the fact that they have a MAJOR station 90 miles away at BWI, and they will cannibalize their BWI station), and I think another major (likely American, if I had to guess) will replace US Airways as the dominant carrier at Philadelphia, and they will consolidate their major operations (the fragmented ones at LGA, JFK, and BOS) into a third superhub at PHL (to go with ORD and DFW)
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
contrails
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:16 am

War? Maybe a skirmish, if that much. Everywhere US has had to face a challenge from WN the result has been the same - US has lost. I don't think US has anything left to fight with.

Having said that, let me add that with the proper leadership I think US could
make a go of it. But they haven't had that in a long time. I wish them well.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
N737Af
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:17 am

WN will not go to Europe as long as pigs cannot fly out of the asses of human beings.

Continental 450, contact Departure and have a Good Evening.
 
PVD757
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:22 am

Well put PA110; however, I think dropping PHL would speed up thier demise, as PHL is one of US's jewels. PIT is basically a lost cause for US and CLT has one of the smallest amounts of O & D traffic for a hub it's size. US basially needs to regroup NOW, or its over pretty soon. I'd abandom PIT as the hub it is today but keep the stronger routes open with RJs. The PHL "rolling hub" or "de-peaked" hub is a must to maximize assets (manpower and aircraft utilization) and minimize overhead and costs (ticket counter and gate space) and reduce delays. Leave CLT the way it is and expand to medium and large markets out west with the mainline sized aircraft from the PIT hub (SAT, AUS, PDX, etc.). Any remaining aircraft NEED to be put on point to point/non-hub routes to take advantage of thier huge presence in the east coast major cities (DCA, LGA, BOS, RDU, PVD, BDL, MHT, etc.). This must all happen by or soon after July when WN starts going gangbusters at PHL. I too wish US all the best with this task for the airline itself and especially the employees.
 
ramerinianair
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:26 am

N737...,
I think you are absolutely right!!! If US can focus onto expanding overseas, then they will be able to make money to cover the losses brought on by WN. If they do it right, they can have WN out of PHL just as fast as DL had B6 out of ATL.

Good Luck US,
-S.R.
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
PHLapproach
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:28 am

This topic has now been talked about in three threads. I just watched the video about the transformation of US. If you guys go look for a thread about this topic you will see the link to the video.
 
quickmover
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:35 am

WN will never leave PHL regardless of what U or anyone else does. BWI is near, but it's still 90 miles away and there's enough passengers for both. It wouldn't be much different than LAX, SAN.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:42 am

SHU,
If US goes under, I don't think that AA will be too quick to move into PHL as far as sizeable operations are concerned. As it is, AA doesn't really have a huge operation out of PHL. I'd expect to definitely see UA, DL, and NW significantly expand operations though.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:48 am

DeltaMD-I can't really see UA, DL, or NW moving in, as all of them have hubs fairly close to PHL (IAD, CVG, and DTW, respectively)...on the other hand, American's closest hub is at ORD, which is why I think AA seems to be the only major who it would make sense for them to move in...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
USAir734
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:59 am

Siegal's approach has been pretty cut and dry--he's been very straight foward to his employees and the webcast has shown that. He realizes the real threat that WN poses and he's trying to unite his employees against WN. Maybe he's using a little propaganda, but more power to him. He's leading a company thats madee up of so many little companies. Theres enough in fighting at US it would tear itself apart minus WN even coming in. Siegal realizes that he needs his workforce behind him to make this company work. I wish everyone at US luck and hope they do put up a good fight!
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:00 am

How can WN operate at PHL and still promote their "quick" turnarounds. You frequently sit on the tarmac for an hour before taking off....

If WN loads PHL up with more flights, I don't see how that will improve any, and that doesn't seem to be WN's usual way of doing business....
Great Lakes, great life.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:04 am

Like I've said earlier, Southwest smells US Airways blood, and is going into PHL (I'm convinced) and expanding there for just long enough to kill off US Airways...I don't think that PHL will ever become a fortress like people think it will, simply because they'd be cannibalizing traffic too much from their BWI hub 90 miles down I-95...they'll pull out (not completely, but they'll pull much of their service) of either one or the other soon after US Airways goes the way of Eastern, Pan Am, and the dodo bird, and American will likely fill the gap...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
quickmover
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:07 am

I'd look for WN to show up in CLT someday. They seem to have success flying to USAir hubs.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:37 am

US is between a rock and a hard place. If the abandon PHL and focus on PIT, they will turn their focus on a city they nearly abandoned...and likely created much bad blood in the process. The folks at PIT cannot be happy with USAirways after nearly being cast aside by the carrier. So, can this carrier come hat-in-hand to PIT and expect 'all to be forgiven?' If PHL needs to be abandoned as a hub, then where can USAirways go BUT Pittsburgh??
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:53 am

SHU,
I don't know why you seem to think that hub spacing is going to be the deciding factor in this. Look at WN out in California, have sizeable operations at SAN (more than 80 flights per day), and LAX (don't know what the current amount of flights is there but they have plenty). The bottom line is, if they can get the passenger base they'll be moving in in a big way.

And I heartily believe that if US goes under most definitely NW, UA, and DL will become the three main staples here in PHL. UA will be quick to hop on the PHL-Europe routes with 767's. The reason that they don't do that now is because of US, but there is a viable market for them in that respect (I'm sure that UALPHLCS could add some input on that notion). DL Connection will get involved in serving the cities throughout the Northeast that are money makers that US currently serves which will work with feeding BOS. Northwest already has a nice amount of planes moving through PHL on a daily basis, and I'm sure that they'll pick up some more routes. UA will have their hands in it big time though, no doubt, because of their ties with US and the idea that it would be easy for them to establish themselves in lieu of US.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
kanebear
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:03 am

I don't see why everyone considers BWI a factor, it's not. That 90 miles is fraught with some SERIOUS traffic... I-95 isn't fun. Also, you pay multiple tolls heading from PA to BWI... overall I can't see much traffic at all going to BWI to avoid PHL. WN isn't even in Philly now, does anyone know how many people they see from PHL at BWI? If WN is worried about delays and such, they oughtta build up ILG. It's only 30 miles away from PHL and I'd imagine Delaware would give WN some very nice concessions to get them in there.
 
NIKV69
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:11 am

WN and USAirways in a war? Southwest will go right over the top of them. USAirways just can't compete.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:30 am

..."UA will be quick to hop on the PHL-Europe routes with 767's"....

Oh, bore! Come on Bryan.. Can't we be a little more optimistic and say that UA would bring in some 777s too? Even if they aren't ERs.

 Big thumbs up
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:32 am

Hahah Ryan.
Well, hey anything is possible. I think that the 763 would be more "probable". Big grin Optimism isn't necessarily a bad thing though.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:50 am

Why would WN want to put US out of business? They're two totally different types of company. They should be trying to put Airtran and Jet Blue out of business, and let the Legacy carriers to their own devices...
Great Lakes, great life.
 
A330323X
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:02 am

Why would WN want to put US out of business? They're two totally different types of company. They should be trying to put Airtran and Jet Blue out of business, and let the Legacy carriers to their own devices...

Bingo! That's exactly what WN is doing.

MDW is served by TZ.
PHX/LAS are served by HP.
LAX will be served by F9.
MCO/TPA/PBI/FLL are served by FL.
PVD/MHT compete with FL service to BOS.

That's 10 of the 13 WN cities at PHL. That leaves a whopping 1 daily flight to HOU, and RDU/MSY, neither of which has historically very high fares, and both of which can be reached on FL via ATL.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
skyguync
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:30 am

As a USAirways employee I can share my opinion based on direct observations from over 20 years, originally with Piedmont and our current Company. Commuting to work to fly a trip is a challenge. Many of us who proudly fly as pilots and flight attendants attempt to be positive, energetic and professional during two pay cuts (and several work rule changes in as many years) totaling around 15%....and now we face the reported ADDITIONAL 25% reduction and layoffs for all divisions along with a sale of assests.

Our future may include a division of an airline partnered with Virgin...it may not. We expect to see the sale of aircraft, slots and real estate while our current management (in a long line of earlier, self professed experts) continue to vacillate and modify "the business plan" without any clear vision. Yesterday we are told that a "killer" is on the way and that management could not have possibly predicted the "rapid growth of the low cost carriers", with similar threats of "Surrender Dorothy" the wicked witch of the "SouthWEST" is almost here. The recent experience of bankruptcy was about as enjoyable as a root canal...and now..we here that we might be there again, because our cost per mile of .10 must be reduced to .06 to reflect the changes in the rules of the game.

Many of us find it ironic that four years ago, in large road shows around the system attended by thousands of employees, management expressed their concern of the "rapid growth of low cost airlines"....and now we hear that it was impossible to predict that the rules would change and that the customer would dictate the price driven factor. With the downturn of the post 9/11 travel climate and the reduction in flying that resulted in retiring the older, higher cost DC-9, MD-80, F-28, F-100, 727, 737-200 and the associated furloughs we realized the need for reducing costs even further.

Our former, old school, subsidized concentration in northeast and the unrealistic philosophy of operating a pieced together company made of several contrasting airline cultures has not been the happiest of "blended families," yet, somehow it worked because of the dedication of the many honest, true and hardworking employees. Many of us continue to come to work we enjoy even after the stress of reduced wages, bankruptcy and more days away from home, to ensure that our traveling public enjoys a safe and comfortable flight with a friendly crew who appreciates your business.

USAirways has always been a cousin of the "Big Three", we have struggled through many years of mismanagement, bad luck, unsuccessful "re-invention", a loss of focus, a lack of marketing and a realistic business plan. At the same time we have consistently won several national and international awards especially in the last few years for Customer Service, On-Time Performance, Customer Satisfaction and we are proud of those accomplishments. Still, it is not enough. We will never be a major force and alone, we will not make it as a stand alone carrier in the current climate. We will be absorbed, sold-off in parts and parcels or reduced to a big regional.

The employee group is now asked to do their part, once again, for the third time, to "give back" to save the Company....and now we are told to agree to a total, probable, 30-40% in wage reductions. There is a limit and a point when one must say, "no more", yet we have children in college, parents to aid and many years devoted to our careers to consider. We, as you, expect a "quality of life" to enjoy on our reduced days off. We continue to nurture and cultivate our talents, interests and part-time jobs in balance with our hope of the survival of our airline. Time will tell and I trust we will be around in part, or in total for some years to come.

 
MoodyBlues
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:49 am

Skyguync:

What an eloquent way to explain the plight of you and your fellow US employees. I think people here like the concept of a US vs. WN "war" and the business side of the aviation industry. But we must all remember the employees of US Air, and the hell you all have been through these past years. I fell for you, and your co-workers. I have a customer/friend who tosses bags at PBI fir U.S. Air, he has been doing it for 20+ years. He has a US Airways license tag on the front of his riding lawnmower. And he has been through the same crap you have, was even laid off in some bullcrap deal that took him months of fighting to get his job back. "They broke my heart" he told me, but still he is loyal to US. What will happen to him, and you????

Unfortunately, I believe that history shows that Southwest will deplete US in PHL, same as they did in BNA, and BWI. I love Southwest, but don't know why they made this decision. I have to believe it wasn't intentionally vindictive, but good business sense. They haven't got where they are by being stupid. And on a bright note, I have heard many times that WN hires people that have been furloughed from other airlines. So maybe you have another chance, they do take good care of their people.

Good luck friend, and to all the employees of US Air. Whatever happens, stay strong.
Southwest Airlines "A Symbol of Freedom"
 
AirT85
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:03 pm

Great post skyguynyc.

My grandmother works for USAirways for over 20 years, she retired in 2000. Since then she has been watching on the sidelines her once proud and dominant employer retreat from what once was their largest hub (Pittsburgh, her hometown), enter chapter 11 bankruptcy, fail to merge with United, and many other ordeals. You all do great work. I have always loved flying on USAirways. Its hard to think the writing may be on the wall, and I certainly hope it isn't, but your dedication to your cause in spite of that is admirable and appreciated. God bless, you all are in my prayers! Here's to seeing where the road may take you.

-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
usairways85
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:32 pm

Kanebear: I think you are failing to see the big picture. Many people travel from PA to BWI to get lower fares and that's a fact. Doesn't mean ppl directly from Philadelphia, but the ppl living between Philly and Harrisburgh and ppl in South Jersey.

Also WN isn't worried about delays at PHL, i think they just want a piece of a huge market share in the region and can afford some delays. I mean come on, Wilmington is even closer to BWI and is barely a corporate jet facility. They couldn't handle WN.
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:54 pm

WN is just going after a new market, can't blame them for that; in no way this is an attack on US. PHL is a good LCC market, maybe thanks to US for that. However US cannot use WN as an excuse for many years of lack-luster success and lack of direction; they wouldn't have found themselves in this situation. In fact AirTran has also been expanding in the market, in fact we've (FL outstations) have the opportunity to work a couple of weeks at a time in PHL to help them with all the extra new flights. Other LCCs are either considering PHL or already expanding their operations as well.
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
737doctor
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:59 pm

Good post Midway.

I think that our latest move is less of an attack on US Airways and more of a way of entrenching ourselves against future jetBlue expansion. Unfortunately for the people of US, they will probably be a casualty as a result.
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
freshlove1
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:42 pm

Like I said before I believe that WN will do alright in PHL, but they will run into major ATC problems with some flights not getting off the ground for several hours once they leave the gate. Every airline in PHL has these problems, it's just the more flights you have the worse it gets and that leads to rising costs. Those quick turns will not be as quick as they would like, but I guess we will see over a period of time. I guess that if I am ever on a WN flight stuck on the ground in PHL I will be served a Coke and Honey Roasted Peanuts to pass the time. That's right people HONEY ROASTED PEANUTS....They keep them in the back in the top cabinet on the right..If you like them ask for them cause they got them and i'm sure that they will get them for you while they tell you a joke or to!!!!
 
scottysair
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:56 am

I think that would be good to hear make expansion out of PHL to 7 cities is added. Will able use with their PHL hub with WN? Will you thnk ever make connected with the flight out of PHL and transfer with the another planes?
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:53 am

If US 'abandons' PHL and refocuses on PIT, what kind of reception do you think the folks at PIT will give them? This is the airport that USAirways very nearly abandoned about a year ago. So, hat-in-hand, USAirways is going to hope all is forgiven at PIT? Sheesh...they'd better HOPE the PIT airport authority have short memories.

As for fighting back at PHL: One way might be to re-time flights so there is even MORE congestion at PHL...making it all the more difficult for WN to stick to their legendary 20-minute turn times. Quite frankly, I believe Southwest will fail miserably at turning their jets at PHL, but I also believe that the carrier has factored this into their game plan. Let's say that one 737 leaving PHL for Manchester is dedicated to this route all day long. If that plane starts out in the morning 30 minutes late, then how late do you think it will be when it finishes its daily schedule? Only a fool would answer '30 minutes.'

Good luck on that.

Chris in NH
 
haveric
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:06 am

I think it's really important to notice that most of the routes WN is competing with US ALREADY have low fare competition. The initial round of competition will be for the passengers already travelling on PHL's LCCs, not on US.

In other news, I was through PHL yesterday and saw that the E gates are being prepared for WN's arrival.
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:55 pm

Lets see here...

For every one or two passengers that pay a $800-$1000 last minute fare on US; there are possibly hundreds of others that are willing pay $100-$400 on a last minute fare for an LCC. Can we say opportunity and increased passenger traffic for PHL with the LCCs?
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
scottysair
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:00 pm

I think that would make competition of US Airways to LAX, FLL, PBI, MSY, RDU & MHT. Which one is always full flight other cities, right?
 
USAir734
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:46 pm

ChrisNH
US won't refocus on PIT and abandon PHL for a few reasons
1. PIT is too expensive to connect through right now. Until that facility gets it's costs in line US won't be using it to the extent they're using PHL.
2. PHL has become too much of US's heart and soul. Their operation is basically focused on and around PHL and is US abandons PHL it'll only be because they shut down.

I can't see US picking up and leaving PHL, at least as long as US is still US. The only way I see US leaving PHL is by way of a buyout, merger, or Chapter 7.
 
SWAFA30
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:06 pm

As for fighting back at PHL: One way might be to re-time flights so there is even MORE congestion at PHL..

I thought the plan that was currently on the table was to move away from specific arrival and departure banks and "roll" the PHL hub to increase aircraft and staff utilization.

making it all the more difficult for WN to stick to their legendary 20-minute turn times.

Average turn time now is closer to 30 minutes. Try as we might, we just can't get 137 people off and 137 back on in 20 minutes. Through flights with a high number of passengers staying on board can help with turn time, but many flights now are terminator/orignators. Throw a full crew change and a handful of disabled passengers in wheelchairs into the mix and there is no way you are getting on and off the gate in 20 minutes.

Quite frankly, I believe Southwest will fail miserably at turning their jets at PHL, but I also believe that the carrier has factored this into their game plan.

I think the turn that is still within our control will still be handled business as usual. You can't do much about getting to and from the runway but once the aircraft is on the gate, how quickly you are ready to push again is still within the airline's control. You make the best of what is under your control and do your best to plan for what is not. I guess Herb and company decided that it is just part of the cost of doing business. The important thing is to overschedule your flights to allow for anticipated delays into the schedule and to accurately manage the customer's expectations. Don't FL and TZ already operate out of PHL? Are they less dependent on quick turns than WN?

Let's say that one 737 leaving PHL for Manchester is dedicated to this route all day long. If that plane starts out in the morning 30 minutes late, then how late do you think it will be when it finishes its daily schedule? Only a fool would answer '30 minutes.'

Very rarely do our aircraft simply fly turns all day for this very reason...that and the fact that we are not a hub and spoke carrier. It may very well be that the rest of the system will just have to "eat" the Philly delays.
Perhaps in the beginning flights will be scheduled to avoid US arrival/departure banks where possible and block times will be waaay over scheduled with adjustments being made as the schedule goes from theoretical to actual over the weeks and months. I plan to bid around Philly until I see how things shake out but it will be interesting to watch.




 
B4REAL
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:13 pm

I think it is truly sad. I listened to Siegel's spiel the other night online, and it is gloomy.

I really don't think US can beat WN - or anyone for that matter. I just hope they have taken notes to see what DL did for B6 @ ATL and what UA did for WN @ DEN. That is only chance US has to survive is take notes on how other small battles were one. Or NW @ DTW holding them off.

But, think three years from now, if WN wins.... What is next, ATL? I don't think so, the occassional 1 and 1/2 hours on the taxiway will p$ss Herb off really quick!
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
AA737-823
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RE: WN V. US - Get Ready For War!

Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:46 pm

I don't think that what DL did to B6 in ATL or what UA did to WN in DEN will matter in this case for the following reason:

Effort.

JetBlue extended little or no effort in entering ATL. Just a flight or two a day. WN in Denver was never big. But here, WN is planning a huge operation at Philly. Not huge in the order of BWI, but still- starting with fourteen destinations is a large deal.

Also, as much as I love US, I think their past decisions have sealed their fate. Is that the employees fault? Well, I don't think so. But at this point, things are looking sad even without Southwest in the picture.
Southwest moving in is a smart business move- IF and WHEN US goes belly-up, Southwest had better hope that they are already in the market, lest JetBlue with their 250 brand new A320s moves in and takes over the east coast. Or AirTran, with their 717s and 737s coming online this summer... Either of those two airlines could deal Southwest a serious blow if they really tried. And with as many 320s as JetBlue has on order, without a route structure to require them, I would say that they are planning on waging war somewhere.

BUT- with Southwest controlling California, BWI and PHL, and Florida, I'd say they've got their bases covered for sustained success.

US might be a casualty, but if so, it would only be speeding up the inevitable.

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