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YOW4NOW
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:56 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:48 pm

I still think the government won't let AC fail...at least not until after the federal election which is expected late May or early June. The last thing the Liberal gov't needs is several thousand stranded passengers! Not to mention all those who have booked flights over the summer and early fall! I'm not saying I agree with a bail-out, rather I'm just looking at it from a political point of view.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15781
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:55 pm

I'm not saying I agree with a bail-out, rather I'm just looking at it from a political point of view.

You can be sure that the Conservative party will raise stink about any AC bailout. The Cdn public support for private bailouts is not there. For every vote it will gain by bailing out AC, the Liberals risk losing another.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4476
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:57 pm

The Liberals need Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa to be voted in as a majority government.

Who cares about the Conservatives... do they even have a real chance of winning this election, the Bloc has a better chance for the love of god.

 
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yyz717
Posts: 15781
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:03 pm

The Liberals need Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa to be voted in as a majority government.

There is no appetite in Toronto for ANY bailout of AC. Indeed, Nortel laid off far more YYZ-based staff than AC has in YYZ.

Health care, education and transit are what YYZ'ers want fed spending for. Not a bankrupt airline.  Laugh out loud
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
tristar2000
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:13 pm

If the unions are too greedy, they're gonna lose everything, and I have to admit this scenario with Jazz makes me smile, but then again, I still don't wish that AC will be going down, even though for one time I agree with Neil, I wouldn't want taxpayer money to bail them out.

I have worked maintenance for airlines for almost 4 years now (never at AC), but I have heard so many stories about waste and inefficient situations in AC maintenance bases, it's incredible... I'll give you a few examples that show the union is like a mafia there (it can make anything happen... because it said so!!!). And apparently, that's been going on since the 80s, when it was still a company of the crown. Mostly they are stories about techs I know that did work for AC at one point or still are.

1. If you're a young tech out of school and you're good, real good (ie too good), then you do your job quickly and it's well done. During that time, the older guy working beside is chatting about what he did last weekend with another of his pals, and doesn't care so much, it's normal working speed for him. At the end of the shift, the superior realizes the young gun worked so much faster than his experienced guy. Now 2 things can happen, either the superior warns the young guy to slow down because he's making the others look bad, or warns the other to work a little faster. Of course, the more experienced guy will be pissed, and will tell the younger guy to lay low and slow his tempo or he'll regret it.

2. This one is good, I've heard that on some days when there's less work to be carried out, superiors tell their techs to at least move their toolbox around to another airplane just to show that they've indeed done something today. (I've heard it many times)

3. If you're in a shop that does work on any plane units (example: PCU: passenger control unit for the audio and sometimes the reading lights which are located in the armrests of the seats). You get a quotta (in this story 10) of the faulty units you can repair in a day's work. Well in this case, the audio jack is what's broken most often, the passenger complains he gets his audio in one hear only, etc. It takes a few minutes to replace and test. The guy I know who worked there was told he had to stop after 10 units repaired, even though he still had half his shift left AND UNITS REMAINING TO BE REPAIRED.

Now you see at a certain level why AC is somewhat inefficient and loses money (that's just maintenance). You don't see anything like that happening in other airlines in Canada, because they would go under, and nobody would care. But by some way, AC always gets away with it.

I'm on a roll so I have something else to add about District Lodge 140... Jean Jallet is the most crooked !/"$% the airline union world has ever known. In August 2001, Air Transat unionized maintenance employees in Montreal (by the way, the TS union is 99% less radical than the one at AC) were part of that lodge. Then came the Azores incident and the media problem for TS at the time which was on its case. Well Mr. Jallet was the leader of that lodge then too, and he backstabbed the Air Transat employees by feeding confidential info he got from Transat about the investigation to the media, more precisely to the Globe & Mail which always had the scoop before everyone at the time. Now the union leader from TS (a mechanic I won't name) tought the leak came from within and told everyone to shut up or "we could all lose our jobs"

Then it came out that Jean "crosseur" Jallet was responsible for all this because the guy has AC stamped across his heart and thought bad publicity for TS would benefit Air Canada.

I don't have to specify that Air Transat maintenance employees are no longer part of this same 140 lodge.

In any case, sorry if my post has gotten long, but it just goes to show that unions can cause an increase in costs for stupid union reasons. But even then, I'm not anti-union, just anti-radical-union.

Best regards,
Steven  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
YOW4NOW
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:56 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:13 pm

I know this isnt' the place, but....the NDP (pro-AC) stand to win the most out of all this. As for the Conservatives...they stand to win more with more votes going to the NDP (those votes will come from Liberals)....

But...back to the airline... There is NO WAY the Liberals will allow AC to be grounded. End of discussion. At least, not until after the election. My guess is a temporary bail-out. Sort of a guarantee of loans etc..at least until after the election. Having said that, I'd put my money on AC going under, WJ and others filling the gap to a degree and International carriers flooding the market to pick up the slack for those going international.

My question..what about my aeroplan points???

 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sun Apr 04, 2004 3:54 am

There is NO WAY the Liberals will allow AC to be grounded. End of discussion. At least, not until after the election.

Not so sure... What is the worst for the Liberals politically? Letting AC go under or bailing AC with a couple hundred million $$$? Tough call…
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:39 am

" that individual members of the union should be allowed to make up their own minds on the type of pension plan they belong to.
"

What??? That's the devil's speak! There WILL BE NO CHOICE FOR YOU! Unions always know what's best for the employees and those that deviate are destroying the socialist order!
I don't take responsibility at all
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:47 am

"Air Canada has 2 profitable quarters in 2002. No other mainline carrier was able to produce such a thing in 2002.... shot down"

IBERIA Net Profit: (Euro millions)

1996 - 21.2
1997 - 89.6
1998 - 318.7
1999 - 153.1
2000 - 201.2
2001 - 50.2
2002 - 157.1

With each posting it seems more and more that you just toss out whatever happens to pop into you mind as long as it supports whatever baseless assertion you are trying to make.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tristar2000
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:54 am

Planemaker is obviously right, but I think Mark was talking about North American mainline carriers, I'd be curious to see the numbers, but I don't doubt Westjet, Southwest and Jetblue made money if you consider them as "mainline carriers"

Steven
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:21 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:16 am

AC861,

Another thought is, where does AC Tango fit into this picture, is it a separate company like Jazz?

There is no AC Tango any more. Some planes still carry Tango titles, but the name now only represents a fare category.
 
AC861
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:04 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:00 am

Olympus69

Thanks i should have rembered that
 
LH423
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:32 am

Initially, BA, KLM, AF, LH, NW, AA, DL, UA

Neil, maybe the US carriers might not have such a problem since they still have many planes sitting in deserts but the European carriers have already committed to their summer schedules. I really would only foresee BA make BA96 daily, maybe adding another YUL flight, another YVR flight but I know that BA doesn't have lots of planes idling around that they can just "throw" into the CDN market. I'm afraid that if AC does go out, the capacity is not going to magically appear in the form of European saviours. It will take a while before capacity is back, especially in the international department.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
yvrtoyyz
Posts: 629
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:10 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:42 am

"Who cares about the Conservatives... do they even have a real chance of winning this election, the Bloc has a better chance for the love of god."

Mark, seriously, I don't want this to get political, but Canada would be far better off without Quebec, the hassle of the Bloc and having to appease all the seperatists (is it safe to assume that you are one, also?) This government has given enough money to Quebec, to support a floundering AC, to support a declining Bombardier - take a look at Nortel...where is it now compared to 3-4 years ago? As one currently living in Quebec, I love the province, I love the people, I love the culture, but the politics (and I am a politics major in university) are the downfall not only to this province (lack of investment, migration of population, reduction in business-centre) but to the entire country. I am tired of seeing my money (can we say sponsorship-scandal - what province did that money go to?) go to appease Quebec. A gov't bail-out (or even extended loan) would be another form of appeasement to Quebec, and I for one will not stand for it! In reality, much of Canada is better off without the hassle of Quebec and their constant whining.

The Conservatives (being from the West) could do a much better job of running the country than the Liberals. Look at it from an economic point-of-view. Where is the most rapidly expanding city in Canada? Calgary, Alberta! Do you think its for the cold? HA! The economy is strong. Westjet, HMY (YVR-based, I think) and others will do fine under a Conservative government because they know how to operate an economy and business in a fiscally-responsible manner...this is something the Liberals have failed to do in the last 3-4 years.

Let Air Canada sink, Jazz and Zip will carry on. Int'l carriers will fill the int'l void as will other Canadian-based airlines. And finally, when AC does go down, please...PLEASE bring back the Proud Wings.
 
JNCVH
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:51 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:27 am

Has anyone else heard the rumour that Alitalia and Austrian Airlines may pull out of the alliance with ACA at YYZ?
 
yvrtoyyz
Posts: 629
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:10 am

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:30 am

Does Judge Farley have the jurisdiction to either a) force the unions to an agreement; or b) permit them to unilaterally seek new investers without the support/notification of management?

Also, will the unions want to seek after Cerebus, especially with Cerebus' reputation of being one to slash wages and operating costs (something that the unions have been opposed to and hence contributed to the demise of AC and the walk-out of TTI.

-YVRtoYYZ
 
YEGaircanada
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:05 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:32 am

You know what......does it really matter anymore?? Honestly....we as the public have absolutely NO say in this matter what so ever! So what ever happens will happen, and there is nothing that we can do to change that. The union leaders are making all of the decisions it seems without basically asking the employees what they think.

It is not worth the time and effort anymore talking about this topic, as most likely, Air Canada will be gone forever. With the grace of God, maybe they will end up staying alive for another year or so. Who knows, and really.....I am starting not to even care anymore.
NBC(vanguard)student
 
miles_mechanic
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 4:30 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:21 am

Hey everyone, just finished reading all the posts, and I have learned a lot, I for one also don't want AC bailed out with my money either, I feel the market should be allowed to sort itself out just like any other industry. As for all the small markets now served by AC that would be lost, there is always small airlines out there that would love to move into new markets to expand there services also. So for the short time, weither it be a couple months to a couple years, if AC goes down, other companies will come in and pick up the capacity at the levels they can handle, and it may mean more transfers for some people to get where they are going, but at least it will be survival of the fittest as in all other industries.
 
Samurai 777
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 2:56 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:47 am

I've been reading all the posts with interest, and I'd like say my piece here.

Like many others here, I sure as hell don't want to see any of my tax dollars going into bailing out AC, indirectly or no.

Fact is, it's not that likely Ottawa would bail out AC. With a sponsorship scandal and an election coming up, it would be political suicide for Martin and his merry Liberals if they did try that. If a bailout like that did happen, there's going to be an enormously HUGE uproar not only among the opposition in Ottawa, but also the public, too. The vast majority of the public will NOT support an AC bailout. And especially not while Air Canada bashing is a national pastime - and more importantly, how serious its debt load is.

There may be signs that Ottawa is pointing to a no-bailout mode. Remember when the federal government started asking WestJet if it would start adding additional capacity on short notice if AC fell? This might be their way of telling the other airlines to "get ready because AC's on its own when it comes to liquidation."

[Edited 2004-04-05 01:51:04]
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:21 pm

RE: Air Canada Unions Eye Other Investors

Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:23 am

The NHL playoffs are starting. The public won't be paying any attention to whatever the government does or does not do.  Big grin

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