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whynottu204
Topic Author
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Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:24 am

So here's one on CNN.COM about a widget preventing the seat infront of you from reclining? What are your reclining horror stories?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/04/04/bt.knee.defender/index.html

How many of you have the knee defender?
 
eddieho
Posts: 223
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:40 pm

Just give us more space and we'll be happy!!!

I almost killed my shins by flying Lufthansa economy and I'm 6 foot 2!

 
chrisrad
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:24 pm

Where can I buy it?!!!!!!!!!  Wink/being sarcastic but I would be afraid to use it though, just in case the passenger would get annoyed.
I'm 6 foot 4" and have had many torture sessions, especially on SQ and CX, the passengers in front of me reclined, I seriously had no where to put legs. Of course this ALWAYS happens on night flights, regardles that I get to the airport 213346 hours before to request an exit row. This is why now I mainly fly MH in economy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
acho
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:32 pm

Last friday on BA 243 LHR-MEX I would have done anything to get a hold on one of those! Ths passenger infront of me, a french old man, despite requests from the crew did not raise his seat during meal times. He had it down for the whole flight. I might buy one incase I have the same guy on the way back!
 
Whisperliner
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:34 pm

That really gets me mad, I for one enjoy reclining- that is how I sleep, in fact I paid for a seat the reclines and the extra room that comes with it. If reclining wasn't allowed, then airlines wouldn't have made the seats reclinable in the first place. If someone were to put those things behind my seat...I think I will turn from polite airtraveler to a maniac seething with airage. I am rather tall too, but I never stop anyone in from of me from reclining- that is their right.

if someone wants more room, its the airlines problem- not mine. I paid for a seat that reclines and I will use it as it was designed.

how if I decided to build some arm rest extenders so that the arm rest now extends 5cm to each side of my seat, because I need the extra room- I am extra fat, I don't want bruise my sides- I am entitled to extra space. THus I will spend a few bucks on plastic arm rest extenders...its not my fault if the persons next to me don't get the space they paid for...hahahaha.
 
AR385
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:50 pm

I tend to agree with Whisperliner. I paid for a recliner, I recline, period. It's up to the airline to make sure other passengers are not bothered. The worst was a trip on IB C class when the guy in front of me reclined and I had the back of the seat in my lap. Well, tough he paid for it.
 
joleb
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:50 pm

My friend told me once a very bad story on one of the old Swissair MD-11's

This was a sold out flight from ZRH-BKK and he was trying to sleep on his tray because his seat was broken so he could't recline. He told the person in front of him that his seat didnt recline and asked the person to put his seat back up a bit. Instead the German bastard fully reclined his seat and my friend got stuck like a sardine in a can for 9 hours. He was squished together and almost got hit by this person when he tried to go to the bathroom

A disgrace!!!

These toys might of came in handy for my friend thats for sure
 
qqflyboy
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:20 pm

The article is wrong when they say AA does not ban the item. AA has specifically banned the use of the Knee Defender and any other product which modifies or limits the original design of the seat. Having said that, the device itself may be illegal, as the FAA does not allow such modifications without prior approval. I think as this guy's business gets bigger, the FAA will eventually shut him down when and if they make public comment about it the device and whether or not it's legal. Of course, the airlines make all their own policies above and beyond the FAA, which AA and NW have already done.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
mas a330
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:36 pm

grrrr...

If you want more space FLY BUSINESS!!
 
Travelagent
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:59 pm

Reclining so far is no problem - but please not during meal service!

And to Joleb: You may be angry about a person but I think this forum shouldn't be the place for expressions like "German bastard"!!
Born to fly! It's more than a passion - it's a yearning!! At home in DUS(Dusseldorf)!
 
eddieho
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:32 pm

This is not about giving others for what they paid for, this is about the airlines respecting everyone's personal health and everyone's well being, especially on a long flight. They should provide enough space so that all passengers are not endangering their health.

I won't be surprised if we soon see lawsuits or laws putting in effect that will not violate each individual's human rights (health).
 
JuniorSpotter
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:36 pm

I'm 6'3", and a simple 45-minute flight from GOT to ARN can sometimes feel like we're flying halfway around the world...and let's not even talk about the loooooong taxi to the gate.

Cheers!
Danny
If something can go wrong, it will.
 
EconoBoy
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:11 pm

I agree with some of the previous guys on this thread. I expect to be able to recline my seat, and would regard it as a pretty arrogant act to have the guy behind me prevent it. That said, I always ease my seat back slowly, rather than risk slamming into somebody’s knees behind me, and would not put it all the way back if I thought I was crowding them.

As for getting a favoured seat in economy, like behind a bulkhead, forget it! They get allocated to airline staff on their privilege flights. You’re just a mere fare-paying passenger.

For guaranteed extra leg room pay the money and go for Economy Plus, or Business.
 
Greg
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:14 pm

Actually, you are entitled to recline your seat unless asked not to by a flight crew member. But, there is already the presumption that reclining may reduce the personal space of the person in back of you--this is normal and acceptable since reclining seats have been installed for 50+ years.

Some airlines, notably Delta, have outlawed these devices on safety grounds--since they are not part of the original aircraft equipment. I think that's a nice way for them to get passengers not to use them without seeming unsympathetic.

If you have a particular requirement that limits your use of regular seats then you should inquire about bulkhead seats...or likely fly in another class of service.
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:21 pm

If I'm flying on a long-haul flight in Economy and there's someone seated behind me, I'll pop my head round after the meal service and ask if they mind if I recline my seat. Nobody has ever said no to me - even if they do mind me reclining they'll let me because I've been polite!
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:27 pm

If you have a particular requirement that limits your use of regular seats then you should inquire about bulkhead seats...or likely fly in another class of service

I think it is slightly unreasonable to ask people such as myself to pay 4-10 times extra for business class just so that we aren't compressed to a high ratio by the person reclining in front. I'm 6'3" and I can't even remember how many times people have tried to recline into my lap only to be stopped when the chair back crashed against my knees. I've had people keep pushing and pushing a few times until I explain the situation to them.

The knee defender isn't the solution, but at least it brings attention to the issue that a 31" seat pitch or less is just not realistic for a substantial portion of the population.
 
fraT
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:32 pm

"Instead the German bastard fully reclined his seat"

On a flight ZRH-BKK could it be, that it was a swiss "bastard"???
Did he introduce himself to your friend or did he had a sign on his forehead saying "GERMAN"??
 
JohnJ
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:38 pm

My own self-imposed reclining rule is that I don't recline unless the person in front of me does. I haven't flown many non-US carriers, but the few I have flown (BA, Air France, Iberia, Varig) seem to let their seats go back much further than the US carriers I've been on. Perhaps it's just my imagination. The worst example was a JFK-CDG Air France 777 flight a few years ago where the guy's head in front of me was basically in my lap. The PTV didn't pivot enough to account for the amount of recline, so I couldn't even watch tv. The only thing that made it bearable was an empty seat next to me.
 
PanAm707320B
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:53 pm

It's a tricky situation and I can see the problem from both sides.

1 - I've paid for my seat and I want it to recline

2 - I'm 6'5' so don't you dare go reclining that seat!

Maybe the extra space on the A380 will solve the problem  Big grin
 
pelican
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:04 pm

FraT: He was aggressive, so he had to be a German...

Shamrock: I wish there would be more such polite passengers like you.

I'm 6'3'' but I have never reclined my seat to the max extent (except there was nobody behind me).
Normally it works when I ask the passenger in front of me not to recline his/her seat fully.

Last time I flew long haul in cattle class I asked for a bulkhead seat and I got a exit row seat (28J in G-CIVK - Jackpot  Smile, so I think early - 4 1/2 hours prior departure -check-in can be helpful. If you have enough time you should check-in as early as possible and maybe you will get a bulkhead or better an exit row seat.



 
willo
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:04 pm

These devices were widely publicised in the British press at the end of last year.

I have no problems with the person in front reclining just as long as they have the good manners to be upright when a meal is served. I always ask who ever is behind me if it's o.k to for me to recline. Sadly many people are too selfish these days and have no regards for the other paying passengers comfort.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:15 pm

One day soon a guy in row 16 is going to put one on the seat in front of him. Guy in row 15 is going to ask him to remove it. He is going to decline to do so. Flight attendants are not going to decide the matter. Final result is that the guy in row 15 is going to jail when the plane lands. Guy in row 16 is going to the hospital. Both are going to court.

The question is, are you willing to be the guy in row 16?
How about row 15?

It is going to happen.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
BAViscount
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:17 pm

Being 6'2", I have a real problem when the person in front of me decides to shove themselves right back and invade my personal space. Personally I was brought up to believe that you should treat others as you would expect to be treated - consequently I would never give the person behind me the unfortunate opportunity to guess what shampoo I had used that morning.

A number of you have said that you have paid for a reclining seat and you intend to use it. I'm just curious to know where you read that the airline is including the price of a reclining seat in the cost of your airfare. And are you telling me that people who get stuck way in the last row of the aircraft that get allocated a non-reclining seat at check-in get a partial refund because they don't have the "reclining" luxury at their disposal? I'd be very surprised if you are.
Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barbados
 
PanAm707320B
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:25 pm

Fair point BAViscount, but would you expect customers not to use all the facilities at their disposal? I begrudge anyone reclining their seat in front of me, but I appreciate that it's their right to do so.

And for the people that get stuck in the non-reclinging last row of seats? Get to check-out earlier!  Smile
 
RareBear
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:28 pm

Your rights to recline your seat stops where my knees start. I'm also 6'-3", and most economy seats will hit my knees as soon as they start to recline.
Illegitimus non carborundum
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:39 pm

I'm pretty small so I'm not terribly bothered either way, but I still think that recline in monkey class should be severely limited. It does very little to enhance comfort anyway.

As for the rest of it, I will as usual say: Be overpolite, apologize profusely, scoot over.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PanAm707320B
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:45 pm

I agree RareBear, I'm 6'5' and most people get the hint when they try to recline and my knees start to make a dent in their back.

I'm not sure of the carrier (a UK charter in Sept '99 from LGW-GRO), but the pitch was so bad that for the duration of the flight I couldn't actually get my bum on the seat....I was wedged by my back on the seatback and by my knees against the seat in front of me. Not quite sure what this means with regards to health and safety.....
 
pelican
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:49 pm

Maybe the FR -way to abolish reclining seats is a possibility to enhance the comfort and not to reduce it???

 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:57 pm

Pelican. I was on a new "McDonalds" style FR738. There was still recline, but it was really limited. Very nice. And I agree that denying recline, or limiting it, would enhance comfort.

PanAm707320B. Even my short body (172cm, 5ft9) goes into shivers when I think of the times I have flown Stockholm->Bangkok on a charter cattle car with a fueling stop in Dehli. Bluääääärgh! Awful! I don't know how the taller people can take it. Also, it seems that the probability of encountering some holiday whuffo who takes one return flight a year is geometrically higher than on a regular flight. And those people sure know how to punch you in the chin with the seat back. Man...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PresRDC
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:05 am

The solution to the reclining problem is to redesign the seats.

Right now, coach seats recline by the seatback moving backwards while the seat bottom remains still. What should happen is for the seat to recline by the seat bottom moving forward and the top of the seatback remains stationary. That way, the recliner impedes his own space when he reclines, not that of the "reclinee" seated behind him. You even take this one step further and design a coach radle seat, similar to the old BA cradle J class seats, whereby the seat bottom angles-up as it moves forward, thereby creating a cradling effect. If the seat in front feartured a footrest, this could be quite comfortable.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:17 am

PresRDC. That sounds quite good actually. And if all monkey class seats had footrests (SAS MD-90 is an example) recline would be much less necessary.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BAViscount
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:22 am

PanAm707320B

I'm not saying that people shouldn't recline their seats, I just think using the "I've paid for a reclining seat" argument is just an excuse for being inconsiderate. Why jeopardize someone else's comfort for the sake of your own - after all, the person on the receiving end of the view of your hair parting and the crushed knees has just as much right to have a comfortable flight as you do. It's all about consideration for your fellow traveler.
Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barbados
 
jmy007
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:23 am

If you feel squashed in by the guy reclining his seat in front of yours, recline your seat, and so on.

The only time I have a problem with seat recline, in meal service. But I find most F/A ask people to bring their seats up.
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:40 am

AS BAViscount puts it, recline is not an excuse for being inconsiderate. If the person behind be is very tall or whatever, I am more careful. You are not entitled to be an arse. And if you want more space, pay more and fly biz or premium monkey .
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pelican
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:44 am

Footrests are an other chapter. I can't bear them.
I think the guy who invented footrests in coach hated people with long legs (like me). They limit the legroom to an unendurable extent.
Footrests prevent me from laying my feet under the front-seat!
Last time I had do cope with footrests (on a BA 747) I tried to lay my feet in the aisle - but this wasn't a real good idea - you know trolleys can hurt  Crying

 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:19 am

I meant retractable footrests, These only make the bottom of the seat 1 cm or so lower when retracted.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:25 am

Typically the person always reclines their seat in front of me, I'm a shade under 6'4'' and built. So the width of the seat is an issue, then the seat comes down. The head rest is pretty close to my face, if I want to bring the tray table down it will hit my knees. I'm flying tomorrow... Goody Goody..
Go big or go home
 
777236ER
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:32 am

You HAVEN'T paid for your seat to recline - you haven't even paid to travel by air. You've simply paid for the airline to get you from point A to point B. How they do that is broadly up to them. You'll find nothing in the terms and conditions about reclining seats - so it's up to you, the guy in front of you, and the flight attendants.

The F/As will always win.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
BAViscount
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:33 am

If you feel squashed in by the guy reclining his seat in front of yours, recline your seat, and so on.

That's not really the point. If you're tall enough to have your knees crushed when the person in front of you reclines their seat, reclining yours (and annoying the person behind you in the process!) has no effect on your aching knees whatsoever - they still stay crushed. Alright, it may mean that you don't have to look at the top of someone's head instead of Mr.Bean re-runs, but it is still physically uncomfortable.
Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barbados
 
pelican
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:06 am

Starlion: should be rather 2-3 cm (or more) and that's enough to prevent me from stretching my legs because the footrest would penetrate my shin...

The only good thing being a tall coach passenger is, that you can impress the dwarf who wants to recline his seat in your lap Big grin .

I hope one day the airlines will catch that the people today (and more in the future) are taller then 30 years ago...
If not I hope that I'll have the money to fly business when I have done my studies (more likely).
Maybe airlines intend this.

 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:10 am

Ok Pelican I get it. It's pretty good being relatively small. However, I think the airlines could just solve it by restricting recline to 5cm back OR increasing seat pitch. Seeing as the latter reduces revenue...

I mean, what's the point of recline in monkey class anyway? I will be about as uncomfortable either way...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:21 am

The last time this discussion came up, someone brought up a point I agree with, and that is the seats are property of the airline and thus you have no right to modify as you please. Not only that, but why, exactly did Northwest ban the Knee Defender? Not because they necessarily believe you have the "right to recline" but because the damned thing can break a tray table assembly if the guy in the seat in front of you gets peeved and tries to forcefully recline his seat. This has two consequences:

1) Passenger safety can be adversely affected and limit the ability of a row to evacuate in case of an emergency.

2) The airline has to buy a new tray table assembly. Who does that cost get passed on to? Why us the passenger of course. So by all means, use your Knee Defenders. You'll be paying more than $9.95 for that "right" in the long run.

I'll just say in general this is just another example of humanity-wide rudeness. Don't want somebody reclining their seat? Jam a little plastic widget in there so they can't instead of doing the polite thing and asking "Can you please move your seat forward a bit?" and then, if they fail to do so, call the flight attendant.  Insane
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:25 am

And even if the F/A doesn't help, there's no point in throwing a hissy fit. You're getting off within 18 hours (probably much less) anyway. Get over it, then write a polite letter to the airline. Your results may vary but they will be better than making a scene. Besides, why allow one a-hole to ruin your whole day?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pelican
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:30 am

Because I usally don't believe in wonders (increasing seat pitch) restricting recline could be a way to increase comfort - that sounds odd though.

 
ssides
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:33 am

My own self-imposed reclining rule is that I don't recline unless the person in front of me does.

My rule as well. Consider this situation: I'm in row 10, typing away on my laptop. I don't use the knee defender. The guy in row 9 in front of me decides to recline. Now, my only real option is to recline, too, if I'm going to get any work done on my laptop. However, the guy in row 11 behind me is using the knee defender. There is great potential for conflict here.

I am 6'1", and I don't find the seats all that restrictive. So long as there's nothing under the seat in front of you, the legroom on most aircraft isn't all that bad. If you do get cramped, you have several options: AA's MRTC, bulkhead seats, exit row seats, business class, and first class. Some of these you have to pay for, some you don't. But I think people should try these options at length before opting for the Knee Defender.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:35 am

Sorry Pelican, but you're always going to have some people that need (yes, need) reclining seats. I have a back problem, for instance, and can't sit straight upright for anymore than about an hour without getting a wicked backache. Believe it or not, the ever-so slight recline I can exercise in an airline seat helps alleviate that. For the people without back problems, it's an additional little perk left over from the "Golden Age of Air Travel," but making all seats in Coach as fixed upright seats simply wouldn't cut it either.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:39 am

What if you're at the way back with a bulkhead. The domino theory doesn't work so well if that seat doesn't recline.

Garnetpalmetto, I appreciate your back ache. But can you not get a better seat at check-in, maybe with a note from your doctor?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:42 am

I'm a poor college student flying out of CAE - most of my flying is to New York and I tend to be booked (I've got no choice of my booking, rather the Chief of Staff for the Conference I work for does) on RJs from CAE to LGA. I do try to get there early for an exit row though  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
pelican
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:51 am

I didn't meant that seats should be fixed in an upright position, but they should not recline more then ... well ... let us say 5-8 cm (2-3'').
For people which want more - you know where the business class is.
So there would be no need for knee defending devices anymore.

 
wgw2707
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RE: Reclining Horror Stories?

Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:53 am

IMO anyone who uses these devices should have the device confiscated by the flight attendants, and if a member of the airline's FF program, should be penalized by 10,000 miles as a disciplinary measure. Airlines must adopt a zero-tolerance policy for passenger behavior that interferes with the comfort of other passengers, in particular, the use of devices such as these to interfere with the comfort of the passenger in the row ahead.

I am a tall guy and when the seat in front of me reclines, it does reduce my legroom. My solution is simply to recline my own seat, if I have not done so already. Passengers have a right to recline and a right to be comfortable in flight, and your ability to use your legroom (as reduced by the recline of the seat in front of you) is increased when you recline your own seat. If legroom is a serious problem for you, request an exit row seat. Then you won't have to worry about the passenger in front of you reclining or not...

In all probability it will become neccessary for airlines such as NW that take the correct position of banning these devices to train their flight attendants to identify the devices and when they are in use. Any knee defenders brought aboard the aircraft should of course be confiscated immediately, and the passenger loudly chastised. In addition, airlines should place instructions in their in-flight magazines telling passengers that should they find their seat unable to recline in flight, to inform the flight attendants immediately and they could at that time inspect the seat of the passenger sitting behind them to see whether or not a knee-defender is in use.

-WGW2707

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