Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Sydscott
Topic Author
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:06 am


HK, Australia strike airline deal
Source: HONG KONG AP
Date: 2004-Apr-16 05:38 AM

Aviation regulators from Hong Kong and Australia have struck a deal to give airlines from both sides more traffic rights.

The pact will let Hong Kong's No 2 carrier, Dragonair, begin services to Australia next year. It also will double the number of flights that can be made between Hong Kong and four Australian cities - Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth.

The deal would let Australian carriers use Hong Kong as a stopover point en route to Europe, while providing for "code-share" arrangements between airlines from the two sides.

"This will enhance competition on this popular route and the travelling public will certainly benefit from the deal," said Wilson Fung, Hong Kong's deputy secretary for economic development and labour who led the negotiations.

Dragonair said it is prepared to launch Hong Kong-Sydney services in the second half of next year, putting it into a market now served by Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific Airways and Australia's Qantas.

"This is good for Hong Kong as an aviation hub and for the travelling public," said Dragonair chief executive Stanley Hui.

Code-share deals allow airlines to put their own flight numbers on services operated by other carriers, so they can sell seats on those flights.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The deal would let Australian carriers use Hong Kong as a stopover point en route to Europe, while providing for "code-share" arrangements between airlines from the two sides."

I gather this means that QF will now be able to add Hong Kong as a stopover point to London either using its own aircraft or a codeshare with BA.

It's good to see Dragonair gaining access to SYD, MEL, BNE and PER. When Virgin arrives that'll amke 4 airlines on this route.
 
AirlineFanatic
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:21 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:18 am

Wasn't Virgin given authority to operate to SYD via HKG from Heathrow also and in return CX given authority to operate LHR - North America?
 
Akumas
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:53 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:45 am

Ahh, they all go to Sydney first :-P
 
Sydscott
Topic Author
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:47 am


"Wasn't Virgin given authority to operate to SYD via HKG from Heathrow also and in return CX given authority to operate LHR - North America?"

Yes but that was part of the UK/HK negotiations. That wont be going ahead until the EU gives the go ahead for CX's LHR-JFK services.

"Ahh, they all go to Sydney first :-P"

Well when QF is flying 747's and CX flying A346's plus some A333 services I think there would be room for 1 A333 service from Dragonair!!!
 
The Coachman
Posts: 1193
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:57 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:15 pm

As nice as the A346 is, I don't think it will be coming to SYD for much longer because of the new HKG-JFK flights, I wonder what will replace it. If CX want to retain marketshare ahead of Dragonair, then I suspect a B744 might be needed. 2 x A330-300's isn't enough, particularly when they're configured quite sparsely.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:34 pm

The Coachman, CX will be using a mix of 333's, 343's and 1 flight with the 346 for the afternoon flight. The morning flight will continue with the 333.
As for QF doing HKG/LHR that will probably depend on whether they get the 7 remaining flights available in the current Australia/ U.K bilateral. If they get it though it leaves an interesting predicament, do you serve LHR via HKG or SHA. Personally I would like to see it served via HKG with the current QF 187 continuing to LHR, overnight from SYD to HKG then a morning departure from HKG. This flight is slated to go to a 333 soon but they can easily be deployed elsewhere.
RL
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5216
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:36 pm

Good news for Qantas... perhaps that's what those LHR slots were bought for?

You can't tell me that people on the inside don't know a deal is going to happen before it's announced...

I hope that's what the new LHR slots were for!! I'd certainly travel to London via Hong Kong rather than Singapore.

Trent.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:15 pm

The allowing of code shares on the route may mean we could see QF and CX actually become "friends". I can see each of their respective flights carrying the others code, suddenly QF and CX both offer 4 daily flights between SYD and HKG and so on. Not exactly an inviting environment to be setting up a new service (Dragonair and maybe VS).
RL
 
anstar
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:41 pm

I'd place money on QF codesharing with BA first on the HKG-LHR sector as this doesn't affect their service amount into the UK.

The QF metal would most likely route through Shanghai.

 
QF744
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:05 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:14 pm

Here is the latest news from Qantas about the deal!

I guess this means we know where one of the new London slots will be coming from, if not both.

QF744


Qantas today welcomed the decision by the Governments of Australia and the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to increase capacity between Australia and Hong Kong, and to link Hong Kong services to London.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Geoff Dixon, said the new arrangements would allow Qantas to look at developing Hong Kong as a transit and stop-over point as well as a destination in its own right.

He said the additional capacity meant Qantas could look at developing new services to London via Hong Kong, as well as additional services between Australia and Hong Kong.

“Under the new arrangements, Qantas has the potential to offer four Hong Kong-London flights immediately, increasing to seven flights a week in 2006.

“Hong Kong is an important market for Qantas. We have been flying to Hong Kong since 1949, and currently operate 28 services a week from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth to Hong Kong, with Australian Airlines also flying three Cairns-Hong Kong services a week.

“The additional capacity available, which represents a doubling of capacity in 2006, will allow us to look at a range of competitive opportunities to promote air travel to Hong Kong and beyond,” Mr Dixon said.
OVER 150 FLIGHTS PER YEAR.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6190
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:31 pm

I assume Hong Kong didn't get any rights to fly beyond Australia to another place? Another fair deal no doubt.
 
anstar
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:57 pm

No, but they do get more services to Australia and allows Dragonair to commence services, so they do get something out of it.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5120
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:01 pm

CX flyboy:

ANstar said "No, but they do get more services to Australia and allows Dragonair to commence services, so they do get something out of it"

And they get to keep their 6th freedom rights from Oz! I would say this was a major part of the deal. That is QF get 5th freedom & CX AND Dragonair get 6th freedom, seems reasonable, considering QF already had 5th freedom beyond HKG, but I think it was limited to Asian ports, anybody know, for sure??

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:20 pm

Gemuser -

Are there any bilaterals in which sixth freedoms are actually regulated?
 
Marara
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:49 pm

BA and QF dont seem to be as cosy these days. Specially with BA opposing the new LHR routes, apparently BA are really pushing for the extra slots to be used from SIN so it falls under the JSA
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
richardw
Posts: 3168
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:54 pm

But BA owns about 25% of QF, so some sort of agreement would be preferable.
 
kaitak
Posts: 10071
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:02 am

Well, QF has the slots and now it has the rights, so BA will just have to live with it!
 
anstar
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:45 am

As has been discussed before, I doubt a 18% shareholder (BA) would of let QF purchase those slots if they didnt intend to use them. To my knowledge the JSA incorporates ALL routes from LHR-Australia. SIN, BKK and KUL when they had it.

HKG and PVG should be no different. It's also interesting that QF & BA are to commence PVG around the same time.

QF's main problem at the moment is they can only increase their metal by a maximum of 1 more daily flight. Even that has not been confirmed as Backpackers Express is vying for those 7 weekly flights.

So... QF can start codesharing with BA from both those ports, but a change in the UK-AUS agreement will be needed before they can put their metal on both
 
Ken777
Posts: 10160
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:59 am

It appears that QF will be flying their metal on the HGK-LHR segment 4 times a week, starting very soon. The important factor for QF is that they can now sell flights from the other capital cities to LHR with a stopover in HKG. This allows a flight like PER-HKG-LHR, with a change of planes (and possible stopover) in HKG. Knowing how the Aussies love to travel makes this look very good indeed.
 
anstar
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:06 am

Ken777, QF can't start any flights to LHR through Hong Kong unless they decrease service through BKK or SIN.

They currently do NOT have authorisation from the Australian government to increase their 21 weekly services. They are using their full allocation at the moment and the case for more is currently with the IASC. However as I mentioned above, Backpackers Hell oops express have also applied for the remaining allocation
 
dab920
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 5:00 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:34 pm

Can someone list the different 'freedoms' and what they mean?
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5700
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:21 pm

Dab920 - the ICAO website details what the different 'freedoms' are: http://www.icao.org/icao/en/trivia/freedoms_air.htm

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:35 pm

I certainly hope SIN is not crying at the news. There was a feature in the paper here today about this. While it is generally believed that QF will not decrease its SIN presence, any growth in Australia-Europe traffic on QF will probably not be routed through SIN.

I seriously wonder what kind of deal QF/BA have gotten out of Changi Airport. And with 7 744s a day from SIN to LHR, I seriously cannot see how many more it can sustain, regardless of how great/efficient/cheap SIN is.

As I live near Changi Airport, I walked the dog to one of the runways yesterday, facing terminal one which QF/BA practically control between 6pm and midnight. In a span of 40 mins I saw 2 BA planes and 5 QF planes land and takeoff. Didn't see a single SIA aircraft at that runway. Nearly forgot I was in Singapore.

Could someone also please enlighten me as to how the JSA between QF and BA works?
 
QANTASpower
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:07 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:37 pm

So Qantas will be able to sell tickets in Hong Kong for flights to London and vice versa?

Also isn't backpackers express a UK company?

From the Qantas press release it seems thay can start these services straight away. There was no mention of gaining approval from the IASC.



[Edited 2004-04-17 06:38:46]
 
QANTASpower
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:07 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:49 pm

The joint services agreement allows QF and BA to code share on all flights between the 2 countries.

As it now stands all revenues and costs from all BA and QF services are pooled together with both airlines sharing any profit or loss.

 
anstar
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:26 pm

Bakpackers Express is an australain company and was to be based in Brisbane, but is now to be based in Melbourne, provided they get funding and aircraft as well as an AOC
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5120
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:56 am

Nickofalanta

My understanding of the matter, from the guy in charge of negotiating the first bilateral with SIN, when MSA was broken up in SQ & MH, was that the treaty specified SQ had sixth freedom rights from Oz. This was in return for fifth freedom for QF, but that the quid pro quos are not specifically spelt out in the treaty.

It is also logical. Strictly speaking an airline in country X cannot sell tickets to country Y unless it has rights between countrys X & Y. In MOST cases where it happens (and of course it happens ALL the time) it is not blantant and is usually accounted for as two flights, eg BA from JFK to LHR to anywhere east, and the whole thing just gets lost in the general run of business, unless one of the regulatory authorities takes a special intrest.

The case of SIN & HKG in relation to OZ - UK traffic is a tad diffrent. Both are small and back then did not have a well developed tourist infarstructure and neither SQ or CX were the powerhouses they are today. It would be much easier therefore to keep track of what was going on with thru traffic. And the Oz government could make it difficult for SQ & CX to sell thru tickets if it wanted to.

I know for a fact that at this time the Oz government carried out a number of Orgin & Destination surveys at Sydney, because I was on one of the survey teams. The method was to seize pax tickets as they were presented to airline checkin agents, microfilm them on the spot, then return them to the pax, took about 20 sec per ticket, two members collecting/returning tickets & one microfilming. (I use "seize" deliberately, there was a sign the teamleader erected saying words to the effect that the tickets were seized under a section of the Air Naviaation Act & pax had no option but to comply.) The resulting microfilw was used to ensure compliance with various treaty obligations.


Gemuser

DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: HK, Australia Strike Airline Deal

Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:09 pm

Thanks, Gemuser, for posting that. That makes a lot of sense. Very interesting reading about your role on the survey team!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos