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CalPilot17
Topic Author
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:09 am

Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:30 am

Acknowledging that women pilots are equally as good as male pilots, and that the skill of the pilot varies from person to person regardless of gender or race do you as a flying passenger feel less comfortable when you have a women on the flight deck or maybe even two. Or do things like that have nothing to do with your confidence level?
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trekster
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:34 am

We had a female captain on our QF flight from MEL to BNE.

We hit turbulance half way there, and it did not end till we landed.

She told as we were desending that she had requested every flight level to get us out of it and give us a smooth ride, but it was at every level.

Nice looking as well as she walked out in front of us
Where does the time go???
 
airtran737
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:53 am

I think that the mentality still remains that men are the best pilots. I'll be honest, in a crisis situation I want to have men in the cockpit, I don't care if you say that a woman is just as good or that she's a really good stick, I want men to handle the problem. I know many other male pilots who feel the same way as I do, but I don't know how many of them would be willing to say it in a public forum such as this. You can say that I'm a sexist, but I feel that men can deal with extreme pressure situations much better than women can.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
flykal
Posts: 423
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:01 am

AirTran 737....


Have to say that I completely disagree with your opinion. I have flown with some professional and extremely competent female pilots who I would have no hesitation having handle an emergency situation if I were a passenger on their flight.

We have female crew for the 744, 777, A330 and F100 fleet and they are all very fine pilots. They are trained and selected based on entirely the same merits as their male counterparts.

Oh, as for handling emergency situations, how about the Aloha 737 that suffered fuselage separation over Hawaii. Female pilot...situation resolved.








Regards,
Phil
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
ha763
Posts: 3201
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:16 am

Just a correction about the AQ incident, the captain of the flight was male and was the PIC. The first officer was female and was the PNF.

I've met many female pilots and they are just as capable as the male pilots.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:31 am

I think that the mentality still remains that men are the best pilots. I'll be honest, in a crisis situation I want to have men in the cockpit, I don't care if you say that a woman is just as good or that she's a really good stick, I want men to handle the problem.

many female pilots and they are just as capable as the male pilots.



While the latter is undoubtedly true... I have no qualms about admitting that I also completely empathize with the former.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Dasheighty
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 1:54 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:50 am

I coulden't even start the thing.....Who am I to judge
 
ozzie
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:57 am

I am all against sexism, and I thing women can be just as good as men in any situation or occupation. I don't care who my pilot is as long as they are confident, well trained, and carefull. The best landing I ever experienced was on a HP CRJ with a female crew.
 
Shamrock_747
Posts: 1499
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:00 am

When I'm on a commercial flight I feel confident that the flight deck crew are highly trained competent professionals, regardless on their gender.
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:12 am

This sounds like a sexist thread. Who really cares if a female is behind the controls of an airplane. They do the same flight training as the male pilots do and it doesn't require heaving lifting, too. Reality, females are smarter then men. Where I work at, I constantly see female fighter pilots roaming around the flight deck and do you think it bothers me if she pulls the trigger or presses the button on the stick using deadly force on our enemy? They're as well trained as like every pilots are.

Flykal provides a great example on one situation. Also, the Critter DC-9 crash in the everglades, the F/O was a female.

Kevin
 
unmlobo
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:31 am

The last flight I took was with a female copilot and I didn't feel any more nervous, they are pilots because they are qualified to be there.
Went to school in ABQ, former airline employee. Now living in Dallas
 
CalPilot17
Topic Author
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:09 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:34 am

How do you feel about women hired over men with more time then them, I talked to a united check airman recently that said there is a list at united of almost exclusively women who have been marked unacceptable for captain upgrade. I herd a statistic that there is near 200 female pilots at united that have to constantly fly with a check airman they are so week. Although I have no articles to back this up and I doubt anyone would publish any sort of thing for fear of being sued but I have heard this from more than one UAL pilots.

As a pilot I think the person with the most experience is most often the best pilot and sometimes I wonder when I fly on a company with affirmative action in place, if that person was the most qualified for the job.

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jeffrey1970
Posts: 1499
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:42 am

I once read a funny story that I read online. If was written by a flight attendant. I am not sure if this story is true but here it is as best as I can remember:

On one flight when we were getting ready to leave the Captain came on to introduce herself, and also the first officer (who was also a lady). There was an older gentlemen in first class who made a funny face when the announcement was made. As I walked by him he grabbed me and said, "Are you kidding, the entire crew is female?" I said, "Yes, and not only that but for this flight the cockpit will not be referred to as the cockpit, but it will be referred to as the box office" LMAO ha ha ha.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
Alert3
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:43 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:42 am

GoCaps16....


Critter 592... the captain was the female. Candy Kubeck.... interesting point: she only made $44,000 per year as a captain.


http://www.flight592.com/TheGallery/candalyn.htm

http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~gulmer/F97/epolsky2/image/history4.html
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:42 am

As an aircraft mechanic I do not like having to deal with the "moods" of female pilots. The pilot ego is a tuff thing to deal with anyway. Add in the "bitch" factor and it makes for an ugly day. Another empty kitchen is all the world gains when a women decides to do a mans job..... Sorry its the truth deal with it.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
CalPilot17
Topic Author
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:09 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:48 am

Many female airline pilots seem very egotistical and cold in my opinion. I work around pilots all day and these more than any other act like they are doing you a favor by talking to you.

Dc10guy my non politically correct half wants to side with you
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xjramper
Posts: 2318
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:52 am

Im sorry............WHO CARES?

Let me put it to you this way...It really doesn't matter who is the person at the controls just so long as they put it down safe and sound. I had an all female crew for my flight down to SRQ about a month ago and they took off and landed and flew just as well as the all male crew that I had on the way back.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
NW747-400
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:06 pm

There is a different learning curve between male and female pilots. The curve of male pilots tend to be linear, that is a steady increase, while female pilots experience an exponential learning experience: slowly increasing at first, then rocketing skyward.

I found the graphs in one of my private pilot manuals when i first started out and its just a neet piece of information that has stuck with me.
 
flykal
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:20 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:08 pm

Perhaps one reason for the so called "moods" of female pilots is due to the amount of crap they have to deal with from those who cannot stand to even think of the notion of a "female pilot".

I know of a number of Captains (usually very old and senile, oops...senior), who will almost completely ignore the female F/O because she is just that...a female!

I stand by my original comment that all female pilots I know and have had the pleasure of flying with at KE are fine professional pilots. I look forward to the day when we can have a completely female crew as other airlines have already experienced.
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
flymia
Posts: 7136
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:12 pm

It really does not make a difference. But i must be tureful and say I do like have Male pilots more. And I would never want a two Female Crew. Nothing wrong with it I just feel better with one male. I have only had two female pilots in my life. Both FO one on a UA 767 and the other on Chalks. I have heard that many people think that a Coed crew are the best to have. I am more confortble with men but a female pilot will not kill me.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
HNLFlyBoy
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:01 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:19 pm

FYI - Factoid

HA was the first airline to operate with a flight with a full female flight deck crew. They are also celebrating their 75th aniversary this year.

Hawaiian Airlines...Hawaii starts here.

HNLFB
 
flykal
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:20 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:23 pm

Flymia said: But i must be tureful and say I do like have Male pilots more. And I would never want a two Female Crew

So, if you were sitting on your UA flight to wherever and heard the greeting message from Captain Linda Smith and First Officer Elizabeth Jones...what would you do???
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:23 pm

I think female pilots are just as good and competent. In a matter of fact I think the female pilots actually have better landings, and no I am not putting down the male race, as for I am a male too, but generally speaking landing takes more finesse rather then skill. It just seems that women have more finesse rather then guys that just muscle the aircraft down. One of the last flights I flew with United from MSP-PHX had both a female captain and first officer. The landing in Denver and Phoenix were absolutely stunning. That goes in a 737 or a Cessna to say, just do fabulous landings. None the less female pilots are just as capable as we are, so lets non put them down....After all we are all interested in one common item, Aviation!!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
planespotting
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:28 pm

I personally have no problem with a female pilot. but my friend mikes dad, he walked out on a flight because the pilot was female. It looks like i might start dating a female pilot soon *hopefully*  Smile and she is as equally qualified as i am.....i do have more hours then her he-he-he.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15658
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:29 pm

I have been on several commercial flights over the last 20+ years where the Captain or FO is a female, including at least one BA flight, and several smaller airliners. There are more and more female pilots comming out of the US military, especially from non-combat a/c and going to work in the front of the a/c and not in the 'traditional' f/a's role with the pax. There was a woman helicoptor pilot from my area in NJ whom was killed in the clean up after the Gulf War in 1991. In WWII, many of the pilots whom ferried new aircraft across the USA and over the oceans to bases were women. One of my aunts served in the Marines in WWII. Many women served and some were killed in the Vietnam war, mainly serving as nurses. In the Gulf War, and in the current war in Iraq many women serve in the support and policing forces (although I have serious problems with it). I work in a law firm as a legal assistant and I have worked with many women attorneys, including at the partner level. I have flown on a small plane with a women pilot. I have NO PROBLEM with a women as a pilot of any aircraft. Anybody whom doesn't like a woman as a pilot or f/o has a real problem.
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:49 pm

Flykal, How do you know why an "old captain" is ignoring a F/O. Do you know its because she is female ? Maybe she's just mad at him because he didn't say something nice about her perfume ? Or maybe he didn't notice the bottle of water she brought him? After the captain ignores her is she "bitchie" for the rest of the flight ? I'll bet she is. That's the "mood" thing people have to deal with. I say go back to the kitchen.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
BMAbound
Posts: 654
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:09 pm

Dc10guy, I think you're pretty pathetic...

Fine, dislike female pilots how much you want, but please spare us your 17th century "go back to the kitchen" comments...

Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:24 pm

DC10guy, maybe it's the mechanic and not the pilot. I know it's a stressful job because I am one.

Alert3, thanks for correcting my mistake and providing links.

Kevin
 
flykal
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:20 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:26 pm

DC10guy, I know this because I have flown with and personally know many "old Captains" who simply cannot even acknowledge the fact that a female can fly an airplane. Read my previous post again.

You should also consider this from a different cultural perspective and not simply what you may be accustomed to in the US. Not every country treates women with the same amount of "respect" that they may receive in the US. Spend some time in certain parts of Asia and the Middle East and you will find that out for yourself.


Regards.
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:22 pm

Once heard a story about a female United Captain, as the pax were boarding, the (lady) Captain was standing in the cabin, and some gentleman in the f/c cabin asked what seemed to be a f/a for a blanket...that "flight attendant" was the Captain herself...she just said "I'll get a flight attendant for you". I'll bet it's not the first time either....

I have no problem with it, if they can pull their weight...felt some nice landings with some chicks at the controls, and sometimes it's a crater in the ground..same as the dudes.

I did hear that the F/O on the FedEx MD-10 crash in MEM was a female..and that the Capt was a line check airman, and he wasn't particularly happy with her performance at all that day...especially more after plowing that main mount into the runway  Big grin.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:23 pm

Flykal, I am aware of all the hype. There are 2 things at work here. The hype of how wonderful the women pilots are. And there is the real world, the problems that all the men MUST live with to accommodate "women pilots" I know they are here to stay and I am dealing with it as best I can. But the world would be better served if they would go back to the kitchen. If a man leaves the cockpit he goes to the unemployment line. When a women leaves the kitchen its empty forever......
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
flykal
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:20 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:47 pm

DC10guy - congratulations on posting what is perhaps one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in a long long time. Your comments clearly show what part of the problem is.  Nuts
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
Spoon04
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:08 pm

DC10guy, have you any problems with female mechanics?
 
ba299
Posts: 182
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:11 pm

I understand what are the real problem of DC10guy..... He can't cook.....
 
ha763
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:42 pm

I've worked in crew scheduling and have heard from others about a certain older male pilot in the company who rather would not fly with a certain young female pilot. Might just be the age difference and lack of things to talk about. And then there is one female captain that no one wants to fly with, male or female.
 
fritzi
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:34 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:44 pm

Dc10guy,
Is your ex-wife maybe a pilot?

Ba299,

HAHAHA, so true!  Laugh out loud
 
Soulman
Posts: 107
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:54 pm

Dc10guy,

Being an aircraft mechanic, next time you're messing around in the cockpit - why not rip out the jumpseat and put a little gas stove in there - so the female pilots can cook and fly...  Big grin

On a more serious note - shouldn't this be about competence and not confidence?

Enjoy the ride.

Soulman.

[Edited 2004-04-19 11:02:29]
 
DABZF
Posts: 1063
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:55 pm

Ok, this is very sexists... shame on some of you!

I know that e.g. LH has flown with full female crews! I would have no problems to go on such a flight! As long as the pilot has a good training and she/he has got his licence, WHERE'S THE PROBLEM???

One of the funniest pilots I've ever met (8-9 years ago) was a freighter (73F) pilot who used to be a man but is now a woman!  Insane
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20645
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RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:12 pm

Dc10guy, you make me laugh. My my but you must be an insecure guy.

If a man leaves the cockpit he goes to the unemployment line. When a women leaves the kitchen its empty forever......

Please... My wife makes more than twice what I make, and works far longer hours. I do the ironing, cook, buy groceries, do the laundry and clean the apartment. I don't see the kitchen being empty just because she's not in it.

My point is, why should the woman go back to the kitchen when the man can do it as well? It's the 21st Century.


On two women in the cockpit: I have experienced this. Can't say it made any difference to me one way or another.


On Women's "moods": Men can be just as big a-holes as women.


Also remember that it's not good enough for a woman to be as good as a man in a "man's job". Normally that woman has to work much harder than a man to gain the same acceptance. My wife certainly does (she's a bank executive). So I would probably trust a woman even more than a man, since she had to work much harder to get where she is.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
707CMF
Posts: 4698
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:39 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:31 pm

I like it a lot when I jumpseat to have a cute FO in the right seat (because the younger the cuter, of course).

Flown a few times with female pilots, be it on commercial airliners or on small props, there is no difference with a male pilot (and why should there be one ?).

Men and women are different, granted. But not the kind of difference you care for in a flihtdeck...

A short story to finish. AF pilot recruitment has the applier have an interview with to pilots (usually a long haul captain, and a FO or a short haul captain).
A 45 yo seasonned pilot, who had recently been out of job due to his airline bankrupting went through the selection. The long haul captain was a lady, and the first question she asked him, seeing on his resume he had already more than 15 years of commercial flying : "Okay. Tell me. Why have you chosen a woman's job ?"

707
 
DeskPilot
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:02 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:39 pm

I agree with Soulman, if they've got the competencies, fine by me.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3673
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:07 pm

If it's a female pilot, heck I aint getting on that there plane, pertically if that dang thang's an Ayerbus - yee ha, I'll just wait it out in the sun while the back of my neck reddens good.

But seriously, I was aboard a 733 on final approach to WLG, my home airport. It was during a God Awful thunder storm prevailing from the West-NW - the runway runs north-south. When we finally broke through low cloud, we were way off course still over the sea at the southern end, being thrown around spectacularly AND I was look down the runway out the port windows.

The captain, following my silent willing, pulled the throttles back and cleared us of any danger thus creating a new flight path over no-go jet fly zones. When the captain spoke over the PA system and told us we were headed back to AKL, I don't think I was the only one who was pleasantly surprised she was a woman. Some macho oaf would probably have tried to land it!

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
Biggles20
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:11 am

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:32 pm

Hello All,

Reading through this thread brings me to fits of laughter. I can't believe how sentimental some of you people are over this topic - whether your slating or siding with females, it simply amazes me!
Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether its a male or female on the flightdeck - they wouldn't be there unless they were capable of doing their jobs to a high level of proficiency and professionalism.
I knew one woman while on my (short) time with the RAF who is now training to be a fast-jet pilot, and another was my instructor!

By the way, why is it that there seem to be fewer female than male pilots - I have always wondered? Is it to do with changing views/equal rights, etc coming so late that is the cause for women being outnumbered by me? Are they even outnumbered - could someone please tell me, I'd really like to know!

Anyway, just though I would give my opinion!

biggles
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20645
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Women Pilots

Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:47 pm

Women are heavily outnumbered by men. I guess a lot of it is due to legacy views that women should be in the kitchen. Also, women tend to choose less technical fields, but this is changing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
CalPilot17
Topic Author
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:09 am

RE: Women Pilots

Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:53 am

Come on people are you telling me that every women in the cockpit is there because they are the most qualified, Bull!!! I will give you that the skill of two equal time pilots has nothing to do with their gender. During the 80's united was hiring low time female pilots over males with 7,000 hours. I don't worry about women in the cockpit because they are some how less capable of being a good pilot but I do get worried that they are there simply because they are women and are filling the quota.
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ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3780
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 am

RE: Women Pilots

Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:04 am

Kind of late, but we had a total "minority" flight crew on a CVG-LGW MD-11 flight in 2002. Woman FO and a Black captain.
 
UAORD
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:01 am

RE: Women Pilots

Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:11 am

Last year I June flew UA from ORD-HKG on a 747-400. The outbound flight was an all male crew, my wife and I had seats on the upperdeck. The pilots came to use the bathrooms without their button down shirts, ties, and shoes and their hair was all over the place, granted it is a long flight and two of the crew members had been bunking but they looked like slobs...


The return flight had one female crew member, the crew was much neater in appearance when they exited the cockpit to use the bathrooms. Fully dressed and had a more professional feel to them.


 
CalPilot17
Topic Author
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:09 am

RE: Women Pilots

Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:34 am

Well maybe I'm beating a dead horse but nobody really seems to have anything to say about women being hired with less experience under affirmative action, pilot bitchyness or appearance aside, having a less qualified person in the cockpit just because of there gender.
Gear Down For max career Advancment
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8064
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Women Pilots

Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:59 am

I had a female Captain and a male F/O on my flight - UA954 (HNL - SFO) on 4th Dec 2003. Nice aircraft (B767) and nice comfy flight too.

The Captain was P/F on this occasion and a good job of it she did too.

Oh, and the audio 'channel 9' ATC coverage was great as well  Big thumbs up

Thanks

Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: Women Pilots

Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:24 am

Ok, OK, maybe I over stated my point just a bit. But ! I have seen women pilots cause problems here at my airline because they are women. I know its a white male business but they need to conform on skill AND attitude. I can give examples.... But I might catch some female pilot on the wrong day of the month and end up out of a job .... So I won't.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!

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