B747 Pilots Into A340, Upgraded Or Degraded?

anthsaun · Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:20 pm

On February 22th, I was flying out of SA - New York">JFK when I met a SA First Officer. I asked him what was he flying and he answered me back some what unhappy, -a 340-. So, I ask pilots to let us know what they feel like moving from B747 into A340. It has nothing to do with wages or rankings. Just feelings.

Thanks a lot guys.

mark777300 · Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:32 pm

I would have to say that it all depends on the pilot. Some pilots love flying the sidesticks on the Airbus modles, and others prefer "the feel of the wheel". Maybe this guy was upset because for him "size does matter". Imagine how angry he would be if he had to fly an RJ???

Starlionblue · Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:39 pm

I have met 767 drivers who have gone to MD-8x. Quite happy with the fact that they can be home most evenings.

I have also met MD-8x pilots who have transitioned to the A321. Their comments can be summarized as: "Well I was pretty sceptical at first. Fly by wire? Sounded really bad. But now I love it. This plane is so cool!"

I guess it's all about how positive you are in life. Some people just don't like change, or they perceive things that aren't really factual.

IF you search on the Skipper's past posts in Tech Ops, you will find some posts about this. In the US, the focus is much more on aircraft size, especially when it comes to pay, while in the rest of the world seniority is everything, regardless of type.

Guest · Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:18 pm

[email protected] - I have a friend who was flying the 737 for years and then startet working for an executive airline on Lear Jet.
He was totally happy with that plane.
If the SA pilot is unhappy to fly the 340, he can quit his job Wink/being sarcastic

Very easy.

iluv2pilot · Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:21 pm

Not all pilots love flying all aircraft. Just because the SA pilot doesn't like the 340, and who can blame him. I know guys who love the 340 and hate the 340, yet I've never met anyone who's disliked the 47, except maybe the early engineers. Sometimes you get to fly what you like and sometimes you don't, but doesn't mean that people should quit flying.

warren747sp · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:01 am

It's sad when you have to work for someone else who calles the shots, I guess. Sothe poor SA pilot will just have learn too live with the stale and unexciting lifestyle with his new assignment.

bobnwa · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:02 am

Airline pilots in the US go strictly by seniority. Senior pilot gets his choice, then everyone under him chooses in order. So to some degree each pilot gets to choose what type and what schedule he wants to fly. In practice, the lower the seniority the fewer the choices.

It does leave the option (don't know why anyone would) of a senior pilot choosing to be a F/O on a 737 instead of a 747 Captain. This is an extreme example but many pilots fly smaller aircraft(earn less money) because they prefer the schedule of the smaller aircraft.

airportugal310 · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:11 am

Yes, I have spoken to many pilots of many different aircraft and believe it or not, many of the older senior pilots enjoy the smaller shuttle flights because it allows them to go home at night and also, they enjoy doing takeoffs and landings bc they get bored with sitting at the helm for 8 hours while crossing the puddle.

And quite frankly i dont blame them.

Bruno

miamix707 · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:21 am

some people don't like change, true. However it's always easier when the change is for the better. After driving a nissan 240 and now a toyota corolla, the latter doesn't feel right, especially during hard turns Big grin

body roll, front wheel drive (for girls), automatic transmission (for girls) So I can't wait to fix the 240! I could easily understand a pilot of a '47 not been thrilled flying something else. I've also heard of an MD-11 pilot of the former Swissair, not been happy he was being switched to the A332.

Starlionblue · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:33 am

In the US the paygrade is more or less tied to the size of the aircraft and seniority. The bigger the plane, the bigger the cheque. Gotta love those unions.

In the rest of the world, as far as I understand it, the aircraft has nothing to do with it. Seniority is everything.

airtran737 · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:42 am

I personally would feel that it would be a down grade. When I was a kid all I wanted to do was fly the 747, I think that every boy who aspires to fly wants to fly the 747, and when you get moved off of your dream airplane I'm sure that it's a bit saddening.

Starlionblue · Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:53 am

I'm not a pilot, but I would probably enjoy the challenge of a new plane, large or small. Interesting stuff to learn! I have always liked change.

wdleiser · Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:09 am

747-400 to a340-500/600 is an upgrade
747-400 to a340-300 to some might be a possible down grade.

They are all great planes so to me it wouldnt matter!

BMAbound · Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:11 am

To me, it's incredible how a pilot can be sad about having to switch from one awesome aircraft to another. Appearently, this guy is in to challenges since he chose that career path. Just having reached that far would keep a smile on my lips 'til the day I retire. Smile

johan

FLYtoEGCC · Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:07 am

I would say it's neither an upgrade or a downgrade. Obviously I can't speak from experience, but I think that if it was me, I wouldn't be unhappy about it - hell, I'd fly a Reliant Robin with wings stuck on the side if it meant I got to fly a passenger aircraft. I can't understand him being unhappy at having a new challenge - maybe a bit disappointed at first, but no more.

warren747sp · Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:12 am

upgrade to a A-380.
downgrade to a A-340.

Starlionblue · Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:14 am

How is it a downgrade? Just because it's slightly smaller doesn't make it less complex or challenging.

PH-TVH · Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:13 am

definitly a downgrade.....
The 747 is still THE KING of the skies
The A340 is still just a princess....

XFSUgimpLB41X · Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:17 am

Not downgrade because it is less complex or challenging..downgrade because it is smaller.

socalatc · Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:21 am

Its a severe downgrage.

FLYtoEGCC · Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:37 am

PH-TVH and Socalatc

Why?

ba97 · Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:57 am

Not being a pilot, I find it all odd that size matters. Is not the test of skill landing and take off and not level auto pilot flying. If the greatest risk is the transitional actions (landing/take-off), if you ran a company, would you not want your most skilled completing this task the most? Does a 747 require an incremental increase in skill from an A340 or magnitudinal increase from A320 or 737? The pay scale and structure in North America always amazes me that the one who is most senior does the least "work" because they do long haul (said with no disrespect).

jfklganyc · Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:03 am

Smaller airplane = DOWNGRADE

Smile

PJ

airxliban · Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:06 am

Well I was pretty sceptical at first. Fly by wire? Sounded really bad. But now I love it. This plane is so cool!"

MD-80 isn't fly by wire?

Starlionblue · Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:45 pm

MD-80 definitely is not FBW.

airxliban · Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:55 pm

what about 757s and 767s, 747s?

miamix707 · Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:01 pm

Its a severe downgrage

LOL amazing how some things could be very well said in a few words Big thumbs up

doug_or · Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:57 pm

not fly by wire, not fly by wire, and not fly by wire.

solnabo · Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:21 pm

IMO its degrading to fly 747 and upgrading with 340´s if you compare cockpits
Just my 50 öre!

Michael//SE Big thumbs up

bucky707 · Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:20 pm

"MD-80 definitely is not FBW."

Sure it is. The wires are just very big and they don't carry electric signals, but there are wires going from the yoke to the flight controls!!

anthsaun · Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:05 am

Could we see a list of those airlines changing B747s for A380s.

miamix707 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:09 am

IMO its degrading to fly 747 and upgrading with 340´s if you compare cockpits
Just my 50 öre!

Even if that were true, nobody sees the plane's cockpit from the outside anyways. It's like been seen and telling everyone you drive a Ferrari over a Saab. I drive a 747..-really!!? vs I drive an A340.. -what's that?

It's severely degrading socially, mentally. and everything else

kl911 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:10 am

Let me guess, a pilot can choose between a brand new A340-600 or a 747 which is 35 years old............. hhmmmmmmmm, I would go with the comfort and the hightech stuff of the A340.....

KL911

miamix707 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:30 am

But a pilot can also choose a 747-400 a few years old over any A340, yes even over a brand new A340-600 Big grin

AC345 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:52 am

In terms of size, prestige, and pay it seems that this would be a downgrade. What would be more interesting to know is what makes one aircraft more pleasant/enjoyable to fly and why. I would love to hear it from a pilot who flew several types what makes an aircraft a joy to fly and another one less enjoyable.

I guess it's similar to comparing car driving experiences, except that I don't know what the factors would a pilot take into considerations. Any pilots out there that could elaborate on this topic?

airxliban · Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:33 am

alright...so that begs the question...which aircraft are fly by wire?

777 I would assume?

A330, A340, A380?

A32X?

L.1011 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:44 am

Fly-By-Wire

BOEING
717: I think so
737NG: I know WN didn't want it, but did it get in?
747-400: No, but the Adv will have it
757/767: No
777: Yes

AIRBUS:
A300: No
A310: No
A320: Yes
A330: Yes
A340: Yes
A380: Yes

Spaceman · Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:57 am

Had it been a 777 would it be a down grade or upgrade?

Blackbird1331 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:14 am

With commonality such an issue with airlines, who is chasing 747 pilots instead of A330 pilots to transition? And how do they figure the A340 is a step up from the 747? I don't see it.

RightWayUp · Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:29 am

<>
Would that have been the case for 747-400 to Concorde?

The 747-400 is the queen of the sky, but flying long/ultra long haul is so boring! I much prefer flying the 737 on short-haul even though it is an inferior aircraft.

airways6max · Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:52 am

I'd say downgraded. While some versions of the A340 are as big as the 747, it lacks the 747's imposing presence at airports.

Starlionblue · Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:37 pm

If the pay is the same...

Size is unimportant, it's the complexity and challenge that matter.

av757 · Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:00 pm

What matters is the difference in philosofy between Airbus and Boeing. I have flown both and both are great airplanes.
At Airbus the pilot becomes just a flight administrator letting the software and hardware do the majority of the duties.
while Boeing still considers the pilot a human being and that he must interact with his airplane whether its the FBW 777 or conventional flight controls for the rest.

airportugal310 · Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:44 pm

Well Well Well

I have only seen it mentioned once, and a particular excuse mentioned alot:

Many of you are saying that going to a smaller aircraft=downgrade....

Generally true HOWEVER!:
The Concorde was smaller than say a 747 and A340 and the like, but, but...it was the upper echlelon of airplanes...in this case, size didnt matter...speed and luxury did...and Id bet those pilot made mad bling...$$$

Wanted to point that out Smile

Bruno

LVZXV · Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:15 pm

PH-TVH:

Good analogy. B747 is masculine, A340 is feminine. That's the way it is!

XV

LAN767Andres · Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:27 pm

LOL. Its not like that, I would say that Airbus are for computer engeneers not for pilots =P.

Or, other way to put it is that Airbus are for pilots that doent like 100% what they are doing. Since Boeings have that "touch" of happyness.

airportugal310 · Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:44 pm

Lan,

What on God's Earth are you talking about? 'Touch' of happiness? That sounds pretty homosexual . Yawn

BMAbound · Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:47 am

If all the pilot cares about is prestige and social acceptance, then... stay on the 747...

To accept the challenge of having to learn different layouts, procedures and develop as a pilot, then I guess switching to something else wouldn't hurt, but I guess that's not interesting...

johan

miamix707 · Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:42 pm

If all the pilot cares about is prestige and social acceptance, then... stay on the 747...

To accept the challenge of having to learn different layouts, procedures and develop as a pilot, then I guess switching to something else wouldn't hurt, but I guess that's not interesting...

This thread is not about whether a pilot should strive for new challenges or not. However, to "develop as a pilot" you first need to have a feel for "hands on" control of the aircraft, not a computer doing everything it for you. Your guess is correct, for some pilots the thoughts of having less physical input doesnt seem very interesting although once trying it, they might enjoy the more computerized approach as well.

airportugal310 · Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:42 pm

People here dont seem to realize (at least two replies mention this) that the Airbus can be handflown! Just because it has FBW and a sidestick does not mean it can not be handflown Yeah sure

The 777 has FBW too...just not the exact same as the A-whatever. Cut the A v B bull. These planes have more in common with each other than some of you think...

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