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QIguy24
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Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:45 pm

I have always been curious to know why Airbus A-330 and A-340 have Sidesticks in their cockpit and the Boeing uses the "steering wheel"?
And I know many SAS pilots are not so happy with the Flightstick. So to pilots out there on A.net. What do you prefer?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:52 pm

The term for the Boeing thing is "yoke". All Airbi apart fromt the A300 and the A310 have a stick.

The stick is used because:
- There is more space left over, so the pilots can have a desk.
- It is a less complex unit that the yoke, and thus has less parts that can break.
- Speculation on my part, but I think it's meant to feel high-tech, just like the rest of the cockpit.

I think it's just a question of what you're used to. After all, fighter aircraft have sticks, although they behave more like yokes. The pilots in Tech Ops will tell you that the stick is a "roll and pitch attitude selector."

EDIT: The A310 also has a yoke.

[Edited 2004-04-23 07:55:07]
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wdleiser
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:09 pm

All Lufthansa pilots are happy with the STICK.... Lufthansa wants the 738's but will only take it if they can get it with a side stick
 
anthsaun
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:17 pm

Also check the A320 and its family for the yoke.
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QIguy24
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:23 pm

Ahhhh Yoke is the name of the "steeringwheel".. I couldn't remember what the name was. But is it easyer to control the plane with the stick?
 
sq452
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:24 pm

So the joke i...the sidestick is like a joystick for the computer so the pilots can practice at home!!!!  Nuts

So with the countless hours i spend on flight simulator, im guessing if i ever became a pilot id fly an a-bus!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:29 pm

Anthsaun, the A318-321 does not have a yoke. It has a stick.


As for ease of control, I think it's about the same. Just a matter of habit. If you know how to use a stick in FS, a yoke is not a huge leap. The behaviour is 99% the same.

EDIT: This does not mean that FS enables you to fly a real airliner, simply that a yoke and a stick are pretty alike. You can also buy yokes for FS: http://www.chproducts.com/retail/usb_flight_sim.html

[Edited 2004-04-23 08:33:57]
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QIguy24
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:40 pm

Ah... Ok thanx for then answers guys. I just learned a little bit more today.  Big thumbs up
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:13 am

Anthsaun - the A320 family uses sidesticks, not yokes

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Spaceman
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:30 am

beecause that's how they designed it.  Insane
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:39 am

I can confirm that the A320 family definitely uses sidesticks. Been to the Front office once on that one.

DLKAPA
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Espion007
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:41 am

i believe its also used so they pilots dont have to lean over a yoke to see the instruments.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:52 am

Before any speculation starts as to which is easier to use....

I've flown a Cirrus SR-22 that utilizes sidesticks, and I can honestly say it didn't take me any time at all to get used to, and IMHO neither the advantages nor disadvantages of either system outweigh the other.
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:55 am

Haha..with a yoke you can see the instruments fine.

It's just a different control philosophy. Too much speculation people!
Most pilots that fly a stick on an airbus A320-A340 and go back to a yoke dearly miss having that nice pullout table. I jumpseat on Airbus A320's regularly getting to work. Very nice. The CRJ that I fly has a yoke. You get used to whatever you are flying... I would personally love to have that table in front of me for my paperwork and meal and such.
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nudelhirsch
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:57 am

When introducing FBW with the 320 family, they also introduced the sidestick. they kept this technology until today.


I remember a report from the "German FAA", where some MX plugged the connectors for the sidestick the wrong way, as there was no mark on it. So when the pilot pushed the stick to the left, the plane would make a right...

They diverted and afterwards, Airbus designed new connectors, impossible to plug the wrong way.

Anyone heard of that? Any technical info or so to that? Think it was flight out of FRA on some 340...
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Klaus
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Nudelhirsch

Mon May 03, 2004 4:50 am

Actually, it was an LH A320. And they didn´t reverse the plug (that´s been impossible all along) but they made a mistake while re-wiring the connector and (even worse!) didn´t catch their mistake during test (as didn´t the unsuspecting pilots).

Fortunately, the Airbus standard priority button allowed the FO to take control and land safely.

ASN Aircraft Incident description 20 MAR 2001 Lufthansa Airbus A.320 D-AIP.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 4:54 am

The question is ....."Why does every Airbus ever made other then the A300/A310 have the Sidestick."
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NWB757300
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 4:56 am

The plane does everything else for them, wouldn't want the pilots to have to move their arms!!

My question is why don't the 300/310 have sidesticks, were they before that time?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 4:59 am

EMBQA, The A300/310 is the oldest model, and you don't want to mess with a frozen design unless you have a very good reason.

The A300/310 introduced a lot of kool new features but the cockpit was rather traditional. with a yoke. With the A320 series, Airbus wanted to completely renew cockpit thinking. As a part of this, the sidestick was chosen. This cockpit thinking continues in the A330/340 and in the A380.


i believe its also used so they pilots dont have to lean over a yoke to see the instruments

Sort of, but part of the reason is indeed to improve instrument visibility. In general, the use of a stick makes the cockpit much more roomy and the table is fantastic.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
soaringadi
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 5:17 am

Despite of the facts that it's easy, and whatever you guys think..... I have a question here for all you pilots.....
From the captain's seat the sidestick is to the left.... right ?? So isn't it inconvinient if you are a "rghty" (right handed) ?? And for the arplns we learn on.... i.e. atleast piper, and cessna they have yoke too. So wouldn't the transition to the sidestick be less preferable..... Just my point of view....
I don't know though since I have never used one. At home too I use a yoke so never really been on a joystick/sidestick..... hope you guys can tell me what is more convinient for you ???
enjoy  Smile

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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 5:46 am

Soaringadi, Captains always fly with the left, even with a yoke. The right hand is used for the throttles.

If you check out a 767 cockpit, the yokes have the trim and disconnect buttons on the left for the Captain and the right for the F/O.

Having tried flying with the left (in a simulator) I can tell you it takes about 5 seconds to make the transition (I'm right handed).


Of course, if the Captain needs to scratch an itch with his left, he will fly with the right for a while on a yoke. With a sidestick he will ask the F/O for help (yes I'm joking)  Big grin Fighter pilots sometimes use their left to fly in able to manipulate maps or drink bottles or sandwiches with their right. It's pretty easy to go from one to the other.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Chema
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 5:46 am

In airliners with a yoke, the captain usually has his right hand on the throttle, and the left in the yoke, so there´s no big difference here.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 6:19 am

Wouldn't the yoke provide more input, via the switches built into the yoke, during high stess situations? While maintaining control without searching for those very same switches?
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FRASYD
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 6:30 am

As pilots hardly ever fly with two hands and thus most of the switches are only on one side of the yoke, it doesn't matter if you have a stick or one side of the yoke to put the buttons on...

Cheers, Seb.  Smile
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 6:55 am

Whenever I get the chance I do ask pilots whether they like the
sidestick or the yoke. Opinions differ.

A few years back I had visited the cockpit of an AC A319 (when we
still could... ah, I miss those days so much!!!!). The pilots
said that they loved the sidestick basically because of the extra
space that it frees up in front of them (so they can eat their lunch
and read their newspaper on the pull-out table more confortably  Smile/happy/getting dizzy;
I'm not kidding).

During the same trip (it was YVR-YYZ-BOS), I also visited the cockpit
of an AC B747-400. These guys hadn't flown Airbuses and wouldn't be
willing to use anything else apart from a yoke. They gave me a good
reason for it too. When one pilots turns the yoke, the other one
immediately has a feel of what his colleague is doing. This is very
important in emergency situations (I understand that sidesticks do not
do this; I could be wrong; could somebody confirm/deny this?).

Some time later I also chatted with an AC B767-200 pilot (YYZ-GLA this
time). He had also flown A320s and told me that, despite the fact that
he liked the B767s over the A320s any day, he did like the way the
sidestick worked.

I would also agree with Starlionblue. I assume Airbus put a sidestick
in their cockpits to show how much more futuristic and modern they are
than Boeing. Which is of course total trash, because the B777 cockpit
is widely regarded as the best and most modern, despite the yoke.

And, if I may add my opinion on LH wanting Boeings with sidesticks:
sorry, but I find it very hard to believe (especially 738s? why should
they split their narrow-body fleet?). Did they turn down the CRJs
because they have yokes? It's not as if the presence of a sidestick
will allow a single pilot rating for the Boeings and the Airbuses...

Cheers,

Tony
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RayChuang
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 2:40 pm

I think to sum it up, the reason why the A330 and A340 planes use sidestick controllers is the fact that Airbus wanted a cross-qualification program where pilots trained on the A320 Family planes could upgrade to flying the A330/A340 planes with relatively little additional training. Indeed, the displays on the A330/A340 planes work nearly the same as the way it works on the A320 Family planes.

By the way, the A380's cockpit is designed so that pilots qualified on the A330/A340 planes could qualify for A380 cockpit rating relatively quickly.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 5:46 pm

Snath: The sidesticks do not provide feedback, and I see the point about the pilots "seeing" the position of the controls, but this does not seem to be a problem in real operations, even in emergencies.

Controls on the yoke/stick are pretty limited on commercial airliners if you compare with a military jet. On the 767, for example, there is a thumb buttons for autopilot disconnect, thumb horizontal trim controls and a trigger for the radio. That's it.
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. Thus the extra space on the yoke is not really necessary in this respect.



As for the 777 being the most modern and best cockpit, I'm sure I could line up a couple of pilots who say the 330/340 is the best  Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 10:14 pm

Starlionblue,

The claim about the B777 being the best has also been made by Airbus pilots too.
 Big grin  Big grin

Thanks for the confirmation on the operation of the sidestick.

Tony
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buckfifty
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 10:25 pm

I love the sidestick, in fact, I find it much more intuitive than the yoke itself, even though I was accustomed to flying with a yoke (on the yoke, turning right means pulling your hand down, while with the sidestick you're genuinely pushing to the right). It feels much more comfortable to use than the 777 simulator I flew last October, with less wrist travel needed and generally (I felt) much more accurate to fly.

It is generally accepted that most pilots who go onto the Airbus generally feel quite at home with the sidestick, and the extra room it affords. The sidesticks will work with dual pilot input in additive mode (though they do not move together), but in the case of an emergency, it is only recommended that one pilot, at any given time, has his hands on the sidestick. If the other has to take control, they just push the prio button, and it will disconnect the other sidestick.

However, nothing beats a fighter style center stick position, IMO.
 
transswede
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 10:44 pm

Well, the F-16 has side-stick just like the A320/330/340. I'm not sure how the F-22 and JSF controler is placed.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 10:56 pm

Lufthansa wants the 738's but will only take it if they can get it with a side stick

What?

My question is why don't the 300/310 have sidesticks, were they before that time?

FBW is a necessary component of the sidestick system. All but one very special A300 are cable-controlled.

N
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 11:18 pm

The Su-37 also has a sidestick.
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SlamClick
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 11:44 pm

As it says in my profile, I'm not going to address any more questions that start with "why"? However . . .

In a FBW system the stick or yoke is merely a switch which provides proportional inputs to a computer.

A yoke, control column assembly in a Boeing must weigh forty pounds.
The Airbus sidestick weighs a few ounces.

An aircraft designer once said that ONE pound of unnecessary weight requires a TEN pound increase in gross weight to carry it. For example, one pound of added weight in the control column requires a heavier mounting bracket. The heavier mounting bracket requires larger hardware to attach it to the structure. The greater swinging weight and larger hardware requires thicker aluminum structure to support it. The thicker aluminum requires larger rivets where it joins the next panel and so on.

Throughout the design evoluton if you have increased the deadweight like this you need more power and more wing area so as not to suffer loss of performance from carrying that weight. More power comes from bigger engines which require stronger attach points which . . . It never ends.

Now, of course, putting a forty pound control column that serves no real purpose in an A-320 would not require hanging PW-4000 engines on it but there is still a price to pay. (That, besides getting in the way of my meal tray!)

BTW most large ships have a steering wheel rather like a car. They no longer have an enormous wooden wheel with spoke-handles all around its rim because you are no longer manhandling the rudder around. Why shouldn't airplane technology keep up with ships?

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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 11:47 pm

Mr Slamclick, as usual pertinent and clear. If I could add you to my RR again I would  Big grin


I'm sure that someone will now point out that the little extra weight of the yoke assembly and related strengthening is not much, but if you apply the weight saving philosophy to everything on the airplane, you really are saving pounds,
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
707CMF
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Mon May 03, 2004 11:51 pm

I would also agree with Starlionblue. I assume Airbus put a sidestick
in their cockpits to show how much more futuristic and modern they are
than Boeing. Which is of course total trash, because the B777 cockpit
is widely regarded as the best and most modern, despite the yoke.


Well, I've heard a story (totally unverified) that there were a lot of requests for Boeing to go sidestick with the 777. They said "certainly not" "why ?" "because we would have to admit Airbus were right !"

707
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 12:00 am

In a FBW system the stick or yoke is merely a switch which provides proportional inputs to a computer.

Not really true, since it also has to shake to warn for stalls, etc.

BTW most large ships have a steering wheel rather like a car.
Why shouldn't airplane technology keep up with ships?


In fact, the latest and largest cruise ships (e.g. Queen Mary 2, Voyager Of
The Seas, etc.) only have a joystick. So, it's goot to see that ships are
keeping up with planes.  Big thumbs up

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 12:09 am

but if you apply the weight saving philosophy to everything on the airplane,
you really are saving pounds.


I think Boeing is doing a pretty good job in decreasing weight:
a few more pounds for the yoke, considerably less weight for having two
instead of four engines...  Acting devilish

Ah, never mind, I'll stop here...  Big grin Thanks for the chat everybody!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 12:26 am

Not really true, since it also has to shake to warn for stalls, etc.

No, sorry, derivative thinking here. There are lots of ways to deliver a stall warning. Airbus does not use a stick shaker for example. Lots of military aircraft use a pedal shaker. Horns, aural warnings, pushers, etc. etc.

* * *


Just an opinion here, and mine is not really worth any more than all the rest you see in forums, but I don't believe that commercial manufacturers set any designs on the basis of appearance. I believe that everything comes down to dollars or euros. The last big decision in airplane design based on appearance was probably the swept tails on Cessna singles. No real function but it looked fast.

Weight is money. Credit or debit, weight is money.

One can argue either way on the weight in a part under design, but the overall philosophy must always trend toward decreasing weight.

This is why I took the vow about questions starting with "why." Unless we were in on the design conferences, we are all guessing.

"What" is easy and definitive. "Why" is usually a guess.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
a3xx900
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 12:28 am

Gigneil:

Lufthansa showed interest in the 737NG but want them with sidesticks. I have read that somewhere. Just search the forum, I think there will be a thread on this.
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gigneil
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 12:39 am

Lufthansa showed interest in the 737NG but want them with sidesticks. I have read that somewhere. Just search the forum, I think there will be a thread on this.

That thread was in regard to the 7E7.

Lufthansa has no interest in the 737NG.

N
 
AFROTC
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 11:05 am

BTW most large ships have a steering wheel rather like a car. They no longer have an enormous wooden wheel with spoke-handles all around its rim because you are no longer manhandling the rudder around. Why shouldn't airplane technology keep up with ships?



actually, it has, alot of the modern ships have done away with wheel and now the captain's chair has a set of side sticks on each side. I was looking at the set up of a new modern cruise ship a month ago, and it kinda reminded me of a airbus cockpit but very large. there is a control panel in front with tv screens two seats for the captain and (whatever a ship's first officer is) and a center control panel like on a plane.
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 11:47 am

Hi people:

Well, still on the topic of sidesticks, I do have a question (may be s stupid one so bear with me okay..!).

Sidesticks, as they are aptly named, are on the SIDES - it's it's on the left on the pilot (captain) seat, and on the right on the co-pilot's seat. Now, if I'm a left handed person, does that mean I'll have trouble sitting in the co-pilot's seat and operating the side-stick on the right hand side?..


 
ILUV767
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 11:58 am

WLG-Spotter wrote:
Sidesticks, as they are aptly named, are on the SIDES - it's it's on the left on the pilot (captain) seat, and on the right on the co-pilot's seat. Now, if I'm a left handed person, does that mean I'll have trouble sitting in the co-pilot's seat and operating the side-stick on the right hand side?..

Not really a problem. Pilots will almost always fly with their outside hand on the control yoke/stick. For example, a captain or pilot sitting in the left hand side of the plane will fly with their left hand and right hand on the throttles. It is reversed for the pilot sitting in the right seat.

When I fly, I can't imagine what it is like to fly with my right hand, and I am right handed. I've tried doing it, and it feels weird.

I L U V 7 6 7
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 12:05 pm

Well, the F-16 has side-stick just like the A320/330/340. I'm not sure how the F-22 and JSF controler is placed.

All F/A-22 cockpit mockups I've seen have a sidestick and I believe BAe is developing a sidestick for the F-35.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 4:53 pm

WLG-Spotter, this was also asked and answered further up:

Soaringadi, Captains always fly with the left, even with a yoke. The right hand is used for the throttles.

If you check out a 767 cockpit, the yokes have the trim and disconnect buttons on the left for the Captain and the right for the F/O.

Having tried flying with the left (in a simulator) I can tell you it takes about 5 seconds to make the transition (I'm right handed).


Of course, if the Captain needs to scratch an itch with his left, he will fly with the right for a while on a yoke. With a sidestick he will ask the F/O for help (yes I'm joking) Fighter pilots sometimes use their left to fly in able to manipulate maps or drink bottles or sandwiches with their right. It's pretty easy to go from one to the other.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Hardkor
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Tue May 04, 2004 5:56 pm

honestly,
how often do pilots fly manually anyways? The sidestick is just as effective as the yoke I would imagine, just a different design. Both are safe ways of controlling an aircraft
Hardkor
 
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Wed May 05, 2004 5:42 am


The motoric control of the hand (-> sidestick) is much finer and smoother than motoric control of the arm (-> yoke).

Daniel Smile
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Wed May 05, 2004 6:42 am

Most pilots fly most landings manually, and all takeoffs.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Wed May 05, 2004 7:57 am

Are weight and aiscraft design that much of an issue? Can't modern FBW flight decks hold both options? To me the changes seem marginal...

About LH whining, how many pilots there fly 320 AND 737? How many are rated on 747 AND 340? Is the Stick sooo necessary or is it rather to get a better deal from either Boeing or Airbus? If Boeing would offer the stick as an option, would LH really go for it or still order the yoke?

Both are serious questions to me, regarding that discussion. Answers welcome... Smile
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RE: Why Does A-330 And A-340 Have Sidesticks?

Wed May 05, 2004 8:16 am

The motoric control of the hand (-> sidestick) is much finer and smoother than motoric control of the arm (-> yoke).

I think you get best precision when you use both hands on the yoke.  Big thumbs up
And I have no idea what motoric means!  Big grin

Tony
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