Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
aussie747
Topic Author
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:04 pm

I know this has been discussed in previous posts and threads, however this report from the well respected "Australian" has published the following.

Orders should be expected by the end of the year by All Nippon Airways, Emirates, Singapore Airlines and Qantas and leasing companies Gecas and ILFC.

_________________________________________________________________

Headline 7E7 Boeing's new load star
Date April 23rd, 2004
Source The Australian

Breakthroughs in design and production have helped produce a revolutionary aircraft, Geoffrey Thomas reports

WHILE the new Boeing 7E7 may lack the air show excitement of Boeing's shelved Sonic Cruiser, it has the potential to reshape the airline industry.

Boeing has been refining the design and its capabilities over the past year and this month increased the range of the aircraft and also firmed up on the short-range model.

What is exciting airlines is that for the first time an aircraft that can economically carry 217 passengers 15,700km nonstop between Sydney and New York , or London and Perth, will be a possibility.

At the same time the numbers are looking positive on the short-range version , which is being optimised for ranges such as Sydney-Perth. That aircraft would carry 289 passengers in a dual-class configuration and could fly 6500km.

Boeing expects to announce the first orders for the 7E7 shortly, with All Nippon Airways, Emirates, Singapore Airlines and leasing companies Gecas and ILFC expected to launch the aircraft. Deliveries would start in 2008.

A major attraction of the 7E7 for Qantas is its unprecedented flexibility and capability to take on Emirates and Singapore Airlines on European routes.

Qantas operates only 747-400s with 400-seat capacity to Europe, and as most of the cities in Europe cannot support a daily 747 from Australia, the airline only serves London, Frankfurt and Paris.

Emirates, on the other hand, operates to 18 destinations in Europe through its hub in Dubai, giving the airline a significant advantage.

The 7E7, with its smaller load, would change all that for Qantas. Operating through the Singapore hub, destinations such as Zurich, Rome, Munich, Athens and Amsterdam would be viable.

Qantas is not expected to be a launch customer but analysts suggest that it may order the 7E7 later this year or take some from leasing companies.

Keys to the 7E7's capability relate to the aircraft's engine, new systems, materials and revolutionary production processes.

Earlier this month Boeing selected engine offerings from General Electric Aircraft Engines and Rolls-Royce for the 7E7. GE will supply the GE Next Generation engine, a derivative of its GE90 engine used on the 777, while Rolls-Royce will supply the Trent 1000 -- the latest version of a family of engines powering numerous wide-body types.

This is a major step forward for leasing companies, which would be able to lease 7E7s to airlines and swap engines to suit the airline's fleet requirements. But the engine makers have a demanding set of requirements to meet.

The real surprise for airline executives is the pricing of the 7E7.

Boeing has quoted a price of just $US120 million ($165 million) -- the same as a 767-300ER -- based on massive savings from new production techniques gleaned from experience in building new military fighters.

Boeing Commercial Airplanes president and chief executive Alan Mulally claims that the assembly of the 7E7 could be reduced to just three days. This is a far cry from the current 10 days for the 737.

Key to that improvement is the delivery by suppliers of built-up components rather than thousands of parts -- a process that was introduced at Boeing over the past five years.

The aircraft will break new ground in simplicity of systems, saving several tonnes in weight.

The 7E7 will be the most "international" aircraft Boeing has ever built, something that has caused US unions heartache. For the first time the French will supply the undercarriage for a Boeing commercial aircraft. In a twist the US will supply the Airbus A380's undercarriage.

While simplicity is the focus on the 7E7, in the cockpit it is advanced technology that is winning.

Rockwell Collins' new MultiScan WXR-2100 weather radar, introduced by Qantas , was a major factor in winning the supply of the 7E7's cockpit displays, communications and surveillance systems.

Introduced in November 2000 by Qantas on its 747-400ERs, the radar automatically adjusts weather detection parameters for a number of variations and uses advanced radar technologies to adjust the data returns.

It also predicts how high the tops of storms will be. According to Qantas pilots, the radar is a huge improvement in protection from encounters with turbulence.

7E7 passengers will sit in a cabin that looks more like a set from Star Trek. Boeing has also added huge windows to enhance the feeling of spaciousness.

However, the best news for passengers is the increase in humidity from the current 5 per cent to 35 per cent, made possible by a revolutionary fuselage.

This, combined with a reduction in the pressurisation altitude from 8000ft to 6000ft, will result in a dramatic reduction in jetlag.


 
QantasA332
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:47 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:09 pm

Flight International (a publication which I'd say is a bit more respected than The Australian in terms of aviation...!) has reported nothing relating the 7E7 to Emirates or Qantas. ANA and Singapore do fit under the broad speculation linking Asian carriers to the 7E7, but at this point I think QF and Emirates (less so) are unlikely candidates. In fact, the one airline that is tipped to be the prospective launch customer is none of those you mentioned, but Malaysian! We'll have to wait and see...

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
behramjee
Posts: 5144
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:43 pm

JAL and ANA are the only initial launch customers as the SR B 7E7 is mainly being built for them!!!
 
MAS777
Posts: 2766
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 7:40 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:09 pm

yes - the article seems a little pro-Qantas since there is nothing stopping Qantas from currently operating say the 777 to European destinations via Singapore (or Bangkok or even Kuala Lumpur) - which the article claims that only the 7E7 would suit QF.

Malaysia Airlines has indeed expressed a keen interest in the 7E7 and talks have already been held with Boeing earlier this year - as it may suit the airline's future role in the (soon to be announced) alliance membership. The aircraft would be a good replacement for the A330 and 777 mix that it has as the single aircraft could fulfill both roles. (MAS' oldest A330s will be about 14 yrs old by the time the 7E7 comes into service)
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:27 pm

I guess LH will also be happy to get around 20 7E7SRs, for many domestic markets in Japan, mainly out of HND (see my trip report), the 7E7SR is simply too small.

SailorOrion
 
hz747300
Posts: 2419
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:38 pm

Actually, this month's "Airline Business" magazine has reported that Emirates is working closely with Boeing on the 7E7.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Guest

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:42 pm

Well EK have a reputation of getting every possible plane avaliable (which i like to see) so dont be too suprised if they get 7E7's
 
syncmaster
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:55 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:00 pm

Very interesting article, really provided some good information. Thanks for sharing.  Big thumbs up

 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:20 pm


Flight International (a publication which I'd say is a bit more respected than The Australian in terms of aviation...!)


But you might want to check Geoffrey Thomas's credentials. He's the Senior Editor of Air Transport World, which is also a very well respected aviation publication.  Big grin He used to contribute to Aviation Week & Space Technology, but lately I haven't seen any reports by him in AW&ST.

With this said, I also have reservation about this report. I can see EK as one of the 7e7 launch customers, but I can't see QF as one of them.
 
ND
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:30 pm

Roberta,

EK getting every type available? I don't see that happening... their fleet consists of the A345, A332, 773, and the 772. I have yet to see them going after the smaller Airbus or the B757,767, or the 737NG...

EK is probably interested in purchasing only the newest wide body equipment available which would explain their involvement in the 7E7 program. The plane should offer innovative and new technologies which is one of the main selling points of EK.
ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
 
Guest

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:40 pm

EK's Fleet consists of

A310(soon to be gone)
A332
772
773
A343
A345
744F

on order

A346
A380
773ER

Every type possible was an exaggeration (duh) but they have a lot of similar planes

Edit. Well i was considering the 773ER in the 773 catagory but just for you Horus  Smile

[Edited 2004-04-23 14:44:41]
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:42 pm

Roberta, you forgot the 773ER which is on order
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
anstar
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:44 pm

QF already have the A332 that could service their secondary euro routes.

I'm sure the A332 could get about 260 pax in them. so it's not a matter of QF going for an aircraft to do the job (they already have it) its a matter of QF not giving it a go.

 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:13 pm

A332 from Australia to Europe? You sure?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:52 pm

I would expect that American and Continental are also likely customers for the 7E7 because of the option of either GE or RR engines. BTW, is the 7E7's name going to change after the launch order is placed? If so, to what? The 787?
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:08 am

Thrust,

On what routes to you see AA and CO needing the 7E7? Please consider the size of the aircraft and the range.
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:09 am


I would expect that American and Continental are also likely customers for the 7E7 because of the option of either GE or RR engines.


Likely customers in the future, but few of the US legacy carriers have the financial strength to help Boeing launching the 7e7 right now.


BTW, is the 7E7's name going to change after the launch order is placed?


More than likely it will.


If so, to what? The 787?


I doubt it. I think Boeing is done with the 7-7 series.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:16 am

I still have doubts believing Boeing is done with the 7-7. If that were the case, I would think they'd have said it. What's your reasoning, Dynkrisolo, for believing Boeing is through with it? Not barking at you, just curious. Maybe there's something I don't know that you do.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
citationjet
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:21 am

John Pilla, Director of 7E7 Boeing Wichita, said that orders for the 7E7 will be announced in 3rd or 4th Q of 2004.
He said this at the SAE 2004 General Aviation Technology Conference, Wichita, KS on April 20.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
starrion
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:43 am

Once their financial strength improves, I can see alot of these aircraft flying for Delta. They've got a ton of early model 762's that will need replacing in the 5-7 year timeframe.....
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
sandiaman
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:53 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:47 am

It's good to see leasing companies on board... we keep hearing about airlines and not the leasing companies.

Low acquisition costs and good remarketability (e.g., standard RR/GE engine interface) will be a boon to the leasing companies.

-M
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:55 am

I agree, Starrion. The 7E7 could suit Delta's needs very well, given the fact that they seem to like GE and RR nowadays. Does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, if DL's financial situation improved dramatically, that they would order more 777s?
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
bluethunder
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:22 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:05 am

This is great news. I hope all this does not end up being mere hype. Anyways, By the sounds of it, seems like 7E7 will just swollow all the replacements orders for 757/767/A300/A310. There is a aweful alot of those aircrafts out there. Now the big question is whats Airbus going to do?

Did i just start a A vs B war  Smile
 
User avatar
American 767
Posts: 4551
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:40 am

Well I don't want to get into an A vs B war but I think Airbus is now rather concentrating on launching the A380 super jumbo instead responding to the 7E7. Airbus and Boeing have different ideas about the future of the airline industry: Airbus idea is to haul the most passengers and freight in one aircraft thus reducing traffic but Boeing idea is to haul passengers (and eventually freight) nonstop between any two cities far from each other while bypassing major hubs.
How is Airbus going to respond? Perhaps a new A330 or launch an A350 who knows?
One could say: How is Boeing going to respond to the A380? Boeing is now rather concentrating on the future 7E7. Same argument.

Airbus and Boeing's respective projects are not meant to compete with each other.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
bluethunder
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:22 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:54 am

American 767:

Very true. Like you said this battle is between 380 and the 7E7 - not in the traditional sence but whose idea was correct? Who had the more accurate vision. This would make for a very intersting topic???
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:03 am


Airbus idea is to haul the most passengers and freight in one aircraft thus reducing traffic


But having the 380 does not reduce traffic. Lemme give you a simplified example.

Four hypothetical city pairs and daily volume in each direction:

LHR-JFK: 800
PHL-BRU: 200
BOS-AMS: 200
IAD-MUC: 200

An airline can satify the demand by flying 2 747 or 3 330/340/777 flights between LHR and JFK, 1 7e7 flight each for the three other city pairs.

If an airline choose to feed all the traffic to and from LHR and JFK, they will use 3 380 flights between LHR and JFK. But the airline will also need additional 3 widebody to 6 narrowbody flights at LHR and JFK.

So, instead of 2 to 3 departures each at LHR and JFK, now you need 6 to 9 departures each at LHR and JFK, which model helps to alleviate congestion at busy hubs?

This is a very simplied example. But the more city pairs you add, the more traffic movements you will have at the major hubs.
 
Adria
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 7:53 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:04 am

"But the more city pairs you add, the more traffic movements you will have at the major hubs."...........That's exactly why Airbus built the A380-to reduce traffic at major hubs
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:43 am

Adria:


That's exactly why Airbus built the A380-to reduce traffic at major hubs



I guess you just don't get it. I said:


But the more city pairs you add
[to my previous example], the more traffic movements you will have at the major hubs


By increasing point-to-point services with smaller planes actually help to relieve traffic at major hubs. By using larger planes between hubs, you actually encourage more feeder traffic into the hubs. Hubs are crowded because there are too much feeder traffic, not because the system can't handle O&D traffic. Study my example harder.

 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:54 am

Nice to see some positive outlooks on the Dreamliner's future. Like I've said all along. . .it will be a hit. . .give it a few years, and you'll see posts on A.net asking, "Who doesn't operate the 7E7?" Okay, I wouldn't go that overboard, but you get my point (opinion).

So, is "7E7" the official name?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:57 am

I would imagine the 7E7 would have a better start than the A380 because it is smaller than the 747 and 777, so many airports are already able to handle the 7E7. The A380 is going to have trouble because were it already flying today, it would be so limited in the airports it could fly to that sales could not really begin to kick off until many airports could now accomodate it. Though the A380 could kill many future 747 sales, I look extremely forward to seeing it in service. I can actually see NW buying it because of their growing loyalty to Airbus. I hope they do. It would be awesome to see those monsters in the U.S.!  Big thumbs up  Love
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
sandiaman
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:53 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:03 am

Not sure about whether 7E7 will stick, but here is an excerpt from AW&ST regarding 7E7 suffixes:

Quote:

. . .However, 7E7 program manager Mike Bair says the company is dropping the traditional -100, -200, -300 model designators (such as 747-400) "to make it easier for everybody to remember which is which." Models of the 7E7 will be distinguished by a single-digit.

So the three variants are:

*7E7-3 for the short-range (3,500-naut.-mi.) version carrying 289 passengers in two-class seating. It is to enter into service in 2008.

*7E7-8 for the baseline aircraft (8,500 naut. mi.) carrying 217 passengers in three-class seating. It also is to enter service in 2008. The order book will determine which comes first, the 7E7-3 or 7E7-8.

*7E7-9 for the stretch version (8,300 naut. mi.) carrying 257 passengers in three classes. Its debut is set for 2010.

Unless, of course, they become the 787-3, etc.

End Quote
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:06 am

" I can actually see NW buying it because of their growing loyalty to Airbus. I hope they do. It would be awesome to see those monsters in the U.S.!"

You'll see them anyway with FedEx. That's not counting the int'l carriers that will fly the A380 to the U.S.


[Edited 2004-04-23 22:06:42]
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:09 am

By increasing point-to-point services with smaller planes actually help to relieve traffic at major hubs. By using larger planes between hubs, you actually encourage more feeder traffic into the hubs.

No, in most cases, it will be the exact opposite. Your example is only relevant if you consider a combination of cities with strong O&D where point-to-point is viable (e.g. U.S.- UK) but those examples are quite limited.

Other than that, AF, LH, SQ, QF and others will simply "sacrifice" frequency for bigger planes (e.g. replace 3 744s with 2 380s!)
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:52 am


No, in most cases, it will be the exact opposite.


How is it opposite? I gave you an example to support my statement. By merely stating an opinion does not make it a fact.


Your example is only relevant if you consider a combination of cities with strong O&D where point-to-point is viable (e.g. U.S.- UK) but those examples are quite limited.


The fact that there are cities that can't support direct flights, some kind of hub system will always exist. But with smaller planes, more cities can become secondary hubs. As a result, airlines and passengers can be less dependent on traffic through major hubs.


Other than that, AF, LH, SQ, QF and others will simply "sacrifice" frequency for bigger planes (e.g. replace 3 744s with 2 380s!)


All the airlines you cited use feeder traffic for their inter-continental flights. Just check the schedules of the hub airports of the airlines you cited and see whether short- and medium-haul flights dominate the schedule or the long-haul flights dominate the schedule. Cutting frequencies of long-haul flights has minimal effect of relieving hub congestion. Some of these airlines don't want to lose their hub dominance. That's why they want their 380s. It doesn't really make their hub airports less congested.
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:05 am



Thanks for that info Sandiaman.

Let's see, "Hey look over there! You can see an A300-600, an A330-200, a 737-300, a 777-200, and a 7E7-9." Hhhmmmmmmm. . . .nope, just doesn't sound right. Well, I guess I'll have to warm up to it anyhow. What will we A.netters refer to it as. . .a 7E9, or a 7E3? Well, that way doesn't seem as bad. . .I think I'll use those.

"Hey look over there, you can see a 7E3, a 7E8, and a 7E9!" (At the Boeing plant in a few years!)

Okay. . .now I feel better. Big grin


Okay, I should have asked this along with my other question:

And what becomes of the "Dreamliner" name? Will it stick?






Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9308
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:11 am

And what becomes of the "Dreamliner" name? Will it stick?

I think it is just an offical nickname, like L1011 Tristar
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
Cadmus
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:47 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:14 am

What good comes from dropping the '00' from the end of the designation? They're always replaced by the individual customer number on each aircraft anyway, so we'll still end up with a 7E7-322 (unless they're dropping the customer numbers too).
Understanding is a three-edged sword
 
AvObserver
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:40 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:28 am

"And what becomes of the "Dreamliner" name? Will it stick?"

It already sticks in my throat. And makes me GAG!  Big grin Seriously, there's no way a design which promises good performance along with significant operating cost improvements at a reasonable price is not going to be attractive to a large number of carriers when it's time for fleet replacement. Boeing tried to woo dreamers and jetsetters with the Sonic Cruiser but, it they're going to put all of their eggs into one basket, the 7E7 is a much better basket because it addresses the airlines' real needs in a large market segment. Not everyone will dump late-model existing aircraft for it right away but I'd think a lot of them will be keeping it in mind for the future. Of course, some will hold out for an Airbus competitor, if much of their fleet is sourced from Toulouse. Nevertheless, the 7E7 looks to me to have a promising future.
 
Guest

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:31 am

Dynkrisolo i can see what you are trying to say but an A380 will not increase feeder traffic to a hub airport it will simply reduce the amount of Intercontinental frequencies.

Many airlines could not support an extensive long-haul network even with a 7E7 at secondary airports and are forced to have only one or two hubs for simplicity and efficientcy. Maybe a few core long-haul flights from secondary airports but never a large P2P network


Take BA for example

They can offer flights from LHR to almost every corner of the globe. but could only support a tiny network Long-Haul from MAN. Say NYC NRT SIN and HNK at the very most even with a 7E7. So they would have to use LHR as a hub and fly every feeder flight to it, the A380 will not change the feeder traffic to LHR or encourage it. The A380 (for the examples sake pretending BA ordered it) could take away traffic from huge BA routes such as SA - New York">JFK SA - California">LAX and SA - Illinois">ORD which is served by many 744's and 777's daily. thus reducing aircraft movement at LHR.

here are some other examples of airlines' airports which could only support a large L/haul network

SQ SIN
MH KUL
TG BKK
NH NRT, KIX
AF CDG
BA LHR
LH FRA
IB MAD
SR ZUR
AM MEX
RG GRU, GIG
SA JNB

ohh yeah and the 7E7 will be the 808  Big grin

[Edited 2004-04-23 23:32:45]
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:32 am

All the airlines you cited use feeder traffic for their inter-continental flights.

Exactly, and on most popular routes they will use the A380. Hence, they will be cutting frequencies!

Cutting frequencies of long-haul flights has minimal effect of relieving hub congestion.

Then, following your reasoning, adding frequencies has minimal effect on hub congestion.  Wow!
The impact of A380 on airports like LHR, SIN, LAX and others will certainly not be minimal…



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9308
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:50 am

Take BA for example

They can offer flights from LHR to almost every corner of the globe. but could only support a tiny network Long-Haul from MAN.


Interesting little tidbit regarding LHR, the A380 will struggle to reach QC.2 regulations while the 7E7 will undercut the noise emissions of an A330 by 50%.

Many airlines could not support an extensive long-haul network even with a 7E7 at secondary airports and are forced to have only one or two hubs for simplicity and efficientcy. Maybe a few core long-haul flights from secondary airports but never a large P2P network

Curious.. that has not been the trend of trans-Atlantic nor trans-Pacific traffic over the last two decades.

And I think most of us, including me, are misinterpreting the idea of a "Secondary Airport." This isn't like WN or RyanAir using obscure airports away from big cities, it's the idea of using non-traditional gateways. The quintisential example of this is LHR. Qantas currently opperates SYD-LHR, SYD-CDG, SYD-FRA with its 744ER fleets. With the 7E7, they could add cities like AMS, ZUR, MAD, Rome, ext.

These cities-
A. Are too small for the A380/747
B. Distribute traffic away from LHR, CDG, FRA (traditional European gateways)
C. Increase frequency
D. Increase number of gateways
E. Reduce distance feeder flights must fly

I think this is a good explination-
http://www.caa.is/media/files/8_Iceland%20Speech%20Slides_Jerry%20Mack.pdf

[Edited 2004-04-24 00:05:07]
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Spaceman
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:28 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:54 am

There are still many cities in the rural area that cannot support international flights. They don't have the facilities to serve big jets or have consistent demands. If you were to serve these cities then you have to sacrifice frequency which would be less convenient than just to connect through hubs with more frequency.

[Edited 2004-04-23 23:55:23]
 
brons2
Posts: 2480
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:11 am

Spaceman, we are not talking about rural cities here.

We are talking about city pairs that cannot support a larger craft but can support a smaller one. DFW-MUC might be one example. Rather than flying DFW-FRA-MUC, just fly DFW-MUC on the 7E7.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:11 am

Roberta and YUL332LX:

I guess neither of you get it. Cutting long-haul frequencies alone does not solve the congestion problems at hub airports. Long-haul flights account for a small number of departures at most of the hub airports. There are far more feeder flights than there are long-haul flights. Bypassing hubs will drastically reduce the number of feeder flights. Unfortunately, airlines like BA, SQ, AF, LH, etc. need to maintain their business volume and hub status. Therefore, they will need bigger planes to continue their hub dominance. Without a hub-and-spoke network, airlines like SQ will shrink significantly. These airlines may say that they order the 380 to help alleviate congestion at their airports. But the truth is that they want to strengthen their hub dominance. Do you really believe SQ will replace three 744 flights to LHR with two 380 flights? No they won't. For one thing, it will mean a reduction in capacity. They will eventually replace the three 744 flights with probably three 380 flights. Can the SIN-LHR O&D traffic support the increased capacity? Most likely not. Then, where will the traffic be coming from? From regional feeds. How do you get the additional regional feeds? By placing more regional flights? What's the end effect? There are far more flights coming in and out of SIN and LHR.
 
Spaceman
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:28 pm

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:18 am

The secondary city you are talking about are Cities such as Berlin or other eastern European cities? City such as Berlin never develop in to a major hub or center. In fact there are very few international flights out of Berlin. Is there a single airline from the US that fly directly to Berlin from any city? I doubt it. Yet, Berlin is still a big city. Most people transfer from MUN or FRA.
 
Guest

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:29 am

Bypassing hubs will drastically reduce the number of feeder flights.

Bypassing hubs cannot be used on every flight though. Regional feeds will need to exist to a dominating hub from every feeding destination for the more obscure L/haul destinations.
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:39 am


Bypassing hubs cannot be used on every flight though. Regional feeds will need to exist to a dominating hub from every feeding destination for the more obscure L/haul destinations


No one says hubs will forever be bypassed. I previously said:


The fact that there are cities that can't support direct flights, some kind of hub system will always exist. But with smaller planes, more cities can become secondary hubs. As a result, airlines and passengers can be less dependent on traffic through major hubs.


Hubs will be here to stay. Smaller planes will allow point-to-point services and build up secondary hubs. Then, there will be less dependency on major hubs. I don't mean to say there is no need for airplanes like the 380. But I want to point out the 380 will be used by airlines based in major hubs to grow their business. They will not be used to reduce congestion at hubs. Bigger planes don't reduce congestion at hubs. Hub airlines depend on feeder traffic. The bigger the plane one uses, the more feeder traffic one needs. That's why congestion reduction by using bigger planes is a fallacy!


[Edited 2004-04-24 00:58:47]
 
Guest

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:57 am

The A380 Hub system will increase passenger flow at hubs, we both agree on that, but it wont necessarily increase aircraft movement.


The bigger the plane one uses, the more feeder traffic one needs.

The bigger the plane one uses, the bigger the feeder plane one requires.

Look at SQ there smallest plane is an A345. you cannot deny that a good amount of a 772 load flying to SIN is going to be O&D. So if SQ opened another hub (i realise there is no other airport in Singapore so say KUL) to alleviate SIN there would still be a demand for flights to SIN so a smaller AC would be required, like an A320. still the same amount of flights to the hub but now you have just gone and increased feeder flights at KUL. Damn MH wont be impressed

[Edited 2004-04-24 01:07:40]
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:04 am


The bigger the plane one uses, the bigger the feeder plane one requires.


That's assuming the feeder cities can support bigger planes. Why do you think there are far fewer 757 and 321 in service than there are 319, 320, 73G, and 738 in service? There will be a whole spectrum of aircraft being used for feeder services. There is no data to suggest those aircraft are becoming bigger. Regional jets are becoming more and more poplular, it will only mean the average aircraft size will actually decrease in the near future.
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: 7E7 Orders Expected Very Soon

Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:12 am

They will eventually replace the three 744 flights with probably three 380 flights.

Right and that means that there will be a fourth or even a fifth flight if SQ does not have the A380 eventually. The same can be said about CDG-JFK/YUL, FRA-JFK, SYD-LAX, SYD-SIN and so many others.
You only understand what you wanna believe here!

Bypassing hubs will drastically reduce the number of feeder flights. Unfortunately, airlines like BA, SQ, AF, LH, etc. need to maintain their business volume and hub status. .

Again, outside USA your point is a non-sense economically. How many viable international non-stop flights do you think AF and LH can serve out of NCE, MRS, LYS, TXL, HAM, STR, etc.?





E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos