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sq452
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Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sat May 01, 2004 11:19 pm

Hence my straying off topic with the airlines you'd like to see at CVG and KLUK (Cincy Municipal), it got me thinking, what cities that don't have a second airport, could benefit from one that would compliment the larger airpot already there AND what routes would be served and by whom???

these can be realistic or ones that you're dreaming up.

====================================

Close to home, KLUK has been in the rumor mill for years, but the city hasn't been willing to spend any money to develop it.

The airports that come to mind for me:

KLUK - Cincinnati Municipal:
10 minutes from the airport, would get primarily business passengers.

Boston:
Shuttle flights to RGN, LGA, and east coast commuter flights.

Singapore:
Turn Seletar into the LCC intra Asia base!  Smile
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ERJ170
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sat May 01, 2004 11:35 pm

ATL needs a 2nd airport... Sort of like O'Hare and Midway.. something...
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Horus
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sat May 01, 2004 11:44 pm

Well if the low cost revolution spreads to the Middle East then I guess most cities will need a second airport.

Speaking about Egypt, Cairo was 4 other airports besides CAI that are used for general aviation. There are other airports just outside of Cairo like 6th October Airport. Alexandria (Egypt's second city) also has two passenger airports, Al-Nozha (ALY).and Borg Al-Arab (HBE).

I think once regulations ease up in the region and peripheral airports are built, LCC carrier will flourish.
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sq452
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sat May 01, 2004 11:47 pm

agreed Horus, LCCs are going to avoid the "biggy" airports as much as possible and take the secondary airports.

Take London for example, Lutton, etc. why on earth would an LCC go into Heathrow!!!
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keno
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sat May 01, 2004 11:53 pm

I wish the old Kuala Lumpur airport in Subang (SZB) is still kept for domestic flights within Peninsular Malaysia. It doesn't make sense to travel 70km to the new airport (KUL) just to take a 40 minutes flight. International and Sabah/Sarawak/Singapore flights should remain in KUL. Some Peninsular Malaysia flights should also be kept in KUL for the convenience of connecting passengers.

Of course this would never happen because the government has made it very clear that KUL should be fully utilised. KUL is already operating under capacity and moving some traffic elsewhere would only make it worse. The cost of operating 2 airports would be very high for Malaysia Airlines so it makes sense to move everything to the new site.

[Edited 2004-05-01 17:06:21]
 
MY7E7
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sat May 01, 2004 11:57 pm

MIA needs one, or better a South Florida regional domestic airport. Tons of people have moved west, away from the beaches and if LLC would serve that airport... it's a hassle to get to MIA during rush hour when you're living west. But no land available :-(
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BritPilot777
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 12:15 am

What about London, England. Heathrow's really struggling with it's current passenger flow, even though they are Building T5, its not going to be able to drastically increase the number of flight in and out of there.
Even though we have Stansted and Luton, we need something slightly bigger and closer to town. Unfortunatly, we have the slight problem of having no space!
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sq452
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 12:18 am

What would that be if they constructed it, the 6th passenger airport for London???

Lutton, City, Gatwick, Heathrow, Stansted...

are there more I am not aware of???

Such a great city though, imagine how confusing that could be to passengers (always happens to people in Shanghai between Pudong and Hong Qiao people wind up flying in to Pudong and then realize their domestic connection isn't out of there, and bus it over to Hong Qiao! crazy!  Nuts
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haveric
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 12:22 am

Philadelphia. PHL is surrounded on all sides, and expansion will be extremely costly. PNE (Northeast Philadelphia Airport) used to have TWA commuter service to major East Coast airports. If it weren't for NIMBY, I tihnk it'd be a great place for RJ services to BOS, LGA, ORD, DCA, etc.

As it stands now, PNE is the third busiest airport in PA, in terms of movements.
 
sq452
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 12:30 am

ABE is close, but not close enough I guess.

I fly into there because grandparents live between the two.

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Southamerica
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 12:31 am


I'll definitely have to throw in Mexico City (MEX) in.

Despite the fact that the airport is already receiving a general upgrade, and that all nearby airports are supposed to be utilised more, the city needs, in one way or another, a form to handle all the growing traffic the city gets.

Unfortunately, it looks like that won't happen...


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ssides
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 1:13 am

To me, I think ATL has the most need. True, there are some bigger cities without second airports, but ATL is stuck by itself. Places like PHL and DTW are close to other airports (BWI, CLE, etc.) and don't draw passengers from as big a radius.

Here is a list of the 20 largest MSAs in the US, and their airports:

1. New York (LGA, EWR, JFK, et al.)
2. Los Angeles (LAX, SNA, LGB, ONT, BUR)
3. Chicago (ORD, MDW)
4. Washington-Baltimore (DCA, IAD, BWI)
5. San Francisco (SFO, OAK, SJC)
6. Philadelphia (PHL)
7. Boston (BOS, MHT, PVD)
8. Detroit (DTW, DET [no commercial service])
9. Dallas-Ft. Worth (DFW, DAL)
10. Houston (IAH, HOU, EFD)
11. Atlanta (ATL)
12. Miami (MIA, FLL, PBI)
13. Seattle (SEA)
14. Phoenix (PHX)
15. Minneapolis (MSP)
16. Cleveland (CLE)
17. San Diego (SAN)
18. St. Louis (STL)
19. Denver (DEN)
20. Tampa (TPA)
21. Pittsburgh (PIT)
22. Portland (PDX)
23. Cincinnati (CVG)
24. Sacramento (SMF)
25. Kansas City (MCI)

Ironically, it looks like Miami is the smallest city with more than one major airport. Very surprising.
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bmacleod
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 2:10 am

In Canada, we've had mixed results.

Montreal tried this "experiment" in the 1970s with YMX. It eventually flopped, but YMX still recieves a fair amount of traffic.

Toronto wanted a 2nd airport in Pickering, just to the northeast of GTA. The residents of Pickering blocked it from even getting to the drawing board.

YTZ is Canada's only successful 2nd airport and is used for mostly private business props and AC Jazz Dash-8s.



[Edited 2004-05-01 19:12:29]
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airbus3801
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 2:13 am

LAX definetly
If london has LHR,Gatwick,City, Stansed and so forth why shouldn't LA
 
jumbojet
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 2:16 am

Someone mentioned the Georgia area. Considering ATL is the busiest airport in the world, you have to take into consideration that ATL is the only major airport in the East, South Easterly region. NYC has 3 major airports all within 15 miles of one another. The closest major airport to ATL would be MIA wich is approx 600 miles away.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 2:38 am

The closest major airport to ATL would be MIA wich is approx 600 miles away.

What about Charlotte? No more than 250 miles away.
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PanAm747
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 3:22 am

San Diego DEFINITELY needs a second airport. As convenient as Lindbergh Field is, it's a disaster in the making in terms of facilities and size and expected growth.

Whatever you think of the idea, a large international airport at the Miramar site (with MASSIVE transportation upgrades to/from it) could handle European and Asian-bound non-stop flights, whereas Lindbergh Field could be downgraded to a Love Field-short range flights only airport.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of aviation in Southern California over the next few years.
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jumbojet
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 3:37 am

charlotte is close, but does that airport serve any European countries? I believe you would still have to fly from Charlotte to ATL to go internationally or anywhere to the west coast.
 
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 3:45 am

Airbus3801,

Los Angeles County has LAX, BUR, and LGB, all which have scheduled air service. In addition, it has Hawthorne, Santa Monica, and Torrance airports for general aviation traffic. Then SNA and ONT are 41 and 50 miles away respectively, in nearby counties.

That's already a lot.

 
jumbojet
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 3:46 am

Actually, UAL and USair fly direct from CLT to the west coast, you just cant get a direct flight overseas.
 
MY7E7
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 3:46 am

LH now serves CLT nonstop from their MUC hub
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767Lover
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 5:07 am

JumboJet,

Yes. Charlotte has overseas nonstop flights. USAirways does a CLT-London on an A330. Lufthansa was the latest to add service a month or so ago between CLT-Frankfurt nonstop.

Edited: Just saw that the question was answered!

[Edited 2004-05-01 22:09:26]
 
cjuniel
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 7:45 am

While Charlotte may not have extensive international service like Miami, CLT is a very major airport in the Southeast US. There are flights to the Caribbean, Europe and the west coast of the US.

Regarding Miramar, with London being the most sought after foreign destination for non-stop service, and the fact that this service failed miserably when British Airways attempted it, I highly doubt you will see anyone rushing to start international service out of San Diego. It is just too close to Los Angeles and San Francisco.
 
haveric
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 8:08 am

While PHL may have other airports nearby, the fact is, PHL is overcrowded. It is consistently in the top 5 of most congested airports and all acknowledge that it is need of expansion. Connections to major business centers would work from PNE, as it is less than 10 miles from downtown and has easy access to I-95.

The closeness to BWI or EWR is not relevant, as PHL desperately needs more space.
 
sq452
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 8:11 am

Agree Haveric. We took off on that runway near the US Express terminal, first time that has ever happened to me.
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fly727
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 10:49 am

Mexico City Intl., is a mess.... We need another airport ASAP.

RM  Smile
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aussie747
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 1:10 pm


"Such a great city though, imagine how confusing that could be to passengers (always happens to people in Shanghai between Pudong and Hong Qiao people wind up flying in to Pudong and then realize their domestic connection isn't out of there, and bus it over to Hong Qiao! crazy!"

Haven't they bulit the Maglev magnetic train that was being built to transfer pax between both airports?. As they were building it back in 2002.
 
sq452
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Unfortunately, the maglev does not connect the two airports in Shanghai
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 4:16 pm

Auckland needs a second airport because then AIAL (Auckland International Airport Limited) charge very hefty fees and the airport company would then have to reduce their landing charges because airlines that fly to AKL would then fly to the other airport. Having a second airport would also help reduce the traffic congestion in the airport area and on the motorway to the airport
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 4:19 pm

Any officials here ???
plz. listen to this request......
HKG definately needs a 2nd. arprt. plz. can you re-open Kai Tak ??? qould be great relief....

No real need here...... just being a little too optimistic, and hopeful..... Anywyas we all know what the truth is... sorry  Crying
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Aaron747
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 4:39 pm

Worldperks,

What you left out of your appraisal is the fact that travelers and airlines prefer LAX by far, and transportation connections around the LA region are too poor to realistically promote using ONT as a significant domestic or even international reliever facility for the forseeable future. In the meantime, growth at BUR, LGB and SNA is restricted due to severe NIMBY influence and lack of expansion potential due to land use externalities.

As far as anyone can see, added growth at LAX is necessary. It is unfortunate the current city government is neglecting the critical role LAX plays in the economic fortunes of greater Los Angeles - as they continue bowing to 10 years of NIMBY pressure on expansion issues and bullshit blathering by environmentalists. The longer they wait, the more expensive it will be.



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sq_pilot
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Sun May 02, 2004 5:05 pm

It doesn't make sense to travel 70km to the new airport (KUL) just to take a 40 minutes flight
Errr.. actually it's about 50km or 30mi from KL to KUL. 70km you can drive all the way to Seremban. From Sg. Besi Toll Plaza to KLIA Toll Plaza = 44.9km = MYR 6.80 or about US$ 1.80





 
flymia
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 03, 2004 7:01 am

Actually in MIA now more people are moving towards Downtown and the beaches. Downtown Miami in the next 5 years will have 15,000 new atpartments go up. MIA I think does need a smaller regional airport maybe. It all depends on If FLL can expand. If we were to get another airport why not make OPA get a few flights. Like SWA and B6 maybe and some American Eagle and CO Express flights. You never know.
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mark777300
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 03, 2004 3:55 pm

Sorry Flymia

I use to live in MIA and I go there quite frequently, but I fail to see many move towards the Downtown area. If anything, it's the increase in the cost of homes in west Dade that may force folks east or even south like many of my wife's friends have done. But anyway, the former Homestead airforce base is still a good place to build a second airport for Miami. MIA will eventually have to take second to a newer larger airport in the future because MIA won't be able to expand that much more from it's boundaries. The western portions of Dade county would not be wise since it would be too close to the Everglades. Homestead is still a good bet, far but a good bet.
 
ACAfan
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 03, 2004 8:12 pm

What about Homestead Air Force Base?
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BAViscount
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 03, 2004 8:19 pm

There was talk earlier in this thread about an additional airport to serve the London area (esp. reply 7). There already seem to be plans afoot to expand the usage of Manston airport ("Kent International Airport Manston") on the Kent coast. Although it's about 65 miles from London, it's well served by the motorway network, so should be fairly easy to get to (except if you need to include the M25 in your route!).

Check out EUjet's plans to make Manston its UK hub at: http://www.fillyaboots.com/_fybArc1/000002e5.htm

And Manston even has its own website : www.london-manston.com

Interesting reading!
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 03, 2004 8:20 pm

They need to build a new airport near me. I'm about 15 miles north of the airport and there is quite a bit of room to build an airport near me. They are very crowded at PHL.
 
mikeyCpvd
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Tue May 04, 2004 1:01 am

They need to build a new airport near me. I'm about 15 miles north of the airport and there is quite a bit of room to build an airport near me. They are very crowded at PHL

This sounds more like a personal ad Laugh out loud

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Coronado990
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Tue May 04, 2004 1:46 am

I highly doubt you will see anyone rushing to start international service out of San Diego. It is just too close to Los Angeles and San Francisco

Using that logic, There would be no international service at EWR, PHL and BWI. I guess BOS and IAD for that matter. They are all too close to JFK in New York, NY.

In 20 years, LAX will be too congested to use from any direction. The freeways already take 3-4 hours for 120 mile journey. There are 6M people in San Diego and Orange counties who must depend on LAX for international service. Just build one international airport in the middle of the two counties and let LAX serve L.A.! It could built to handle the A380 from the beginning and become the premier Southern California international airport. This time with express train or Maglev service from up and down the south coast drawing people from San Diego and Los Angeles and everything in between (well over 10M people).
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Tue May 04, 2004 2:02 am

San Diego DEFINITELY needs a second airport. As convenient as Lindbergh Field is, it's a disaster in the making in terms of facilities and size and expected growth.

Not a second airport, a new airport centrally located. There is insufficient demand in Carlsbad. Service there has failed horribly despite best efforts . They need two runways and about 60 gates today. 90 in the next 30 years. Gotta have room for that. Period. Can you say Miramar????

As for demand for International Service. It's there, the aircraft isn't. Everything over a 767-400 is weight restricted due to the short (less than 10,000') usable runway. Demand exists for the following markets out of San Diego:

Manila
Sydney
UK
Japan
China

The problem of market reach will be answered in 2008 by the 7E7, unfortunately, if they don't answer the capacity problem it won't matter where you fly to from San Diego. It'll cost you an arm and a leg. Never the less, a 7E7 has the right capacity and range for a market such as San Diego.
 
Guest

RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Tue May 04, 2004 8:36 am

Aaron747,

Everything you say makes sense. But the purpose of my post (#18, I think) was to simply point out some extant alternatives to LAX via-a-vis the thread's subject.

I know the fact that LAX is hemmed in on the north (Westchester), on the south (El Segundo) and on the east (Century City) doesn't make the task of expansion any easier, no matter whose responsibility it is to make expansion happen. You also suggest that travel to/from the inland empire is confounded by traffic and travel up/down the 5, 405, 15, 110, 610, 710 is at gridlock frequently. So wouldn't it be logical, all fares being equal, to fly out of BUR or ONT or SNA and avoid the trip downtown altogether and the gridlocked roadways?

The other airports are relievers for LAX, not replacements or even excuses for not expanding it. And that's exactly how many road warriors use them. For instance, I've landed at ONT more than once to reach Harborgate (down 15, over 91--takes about 50 minutes). At certain times of the day, it takes the same amount of time to get to LAX from the same Torrance industrial park even though LAX is much closer. I've done exactly the same thing from SNA.

I don't live in southern California, and I do not know what it's like paying taxes for an airport I'm not happy with. But I do travel there, and I do know how to get around some of the problems caused by crowding at LAX.

[Edited 2004-05-04 01:48:31]
 
sq452
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Tue May 04, 2004 2:15 pm

Somewhere, someplace, I hope officials in either PHL, MIA, or LAX are reading this thread. Sparked a lot of passionate posts.

Keep em coming!!!  Smile
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Motorhussy
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Tue May 04, 2004 10:34 pm

I concur with 777ER, Auckland city needs an airport other than AKL, one that's more convenient for people living in the north and west. And of course one already exists - at Ardmore (AMZ).
come visit the south pacific
 
cjuniel
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Wed May 05, 2004 6:51 am

Using that logic, There would be no international service at EWR, PHL and BWI. I guess BOS and IAD for that matter. They are all too close to JFK in New York, NY.

To begin with British Airways attempted SAN-London service and it failed, miserably. Secondly, EWR is technically a New York City airport. There are 8 million people in New York City alone (not counting Northern New Jersey, Long Island, Westchester County, etc) which justifies the demand of two MAJOR international airports in the New York area. There are only 6 million people in Orange and San Diego Counties combined (www.census.gov). You cannot compare San Diego with the likes of Washington, DC (the US Capital), Boston (a top 10 international gateway airport in the US), or Philadelphia. As I stated before, London is the NUMBER ONE destination on airports international destination wish list, and this service failed. You can beat me up on this if you want to, but I don't foresee anyone attempting to enter the international market out of San Diego again anytime soon.
 
cjuniel
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Wed May 05, 2004 7:24 am

One thing I also realized as an afterthought. PHL, IAD and BOS to a lesser extent are hub airports. No major airline hubs in SAN, and thus, it would be very difficult to feed traffic through San Diego.
 
Guest

RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Wed May 05, 2004 11:13 am

To begin with British Airways attempted SAN-London service and it failed, miserably.

Not because of demand, but because of aircraft capacity, and it wasn't miserable. The 777 and 747 were too large. BA averaged 180 pax per trip. Perfect for a 7E7 with 230 seats.

There are only 6 million people in Orange and San Diego Counties combined (www.census.gov). You cannot compare San Diego with the likes of Washington, DC (the US Capital), Boston (a top 10 international gateway airport in the US), or Philadelphia.

BOS, IAD, EWR and JFK serve as hubs for airlines. Not only do they have O&D, they also have connecting. You can compare. As an O&D, San Diego holds their own. People there fly. Factoid: San Diego has the highest concentration of Delta Million Milers in the nation.

You can beat me up on this if you want to, but I don't foresee anyone attempting to enter the international market out of San Diego again anytime soon.

Again, it's the aircraft size, not market demand. We'll see in 2008. It doesn't change the fact that due to increasing operations, San Diego is in a world of crap if they don't get a new airport. You can build all the terminals you want, but a single runway doesn't get you anywhere.

Oh... and on growth:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20040504-9999-7m4briefs.html

[Edited 2004-05-05 04:21:25]
 
cjuniel
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Wed May 05, 2004 10:07 pm

Boeing,

British Airways called their San Diego service "disappointing". However, I will agree with you on one point. One runway is DEFINITELY not going to cut it. But what kind of REALISTIC options are there in San Diego? We drove down from L.A. in February, and it doesn't appear there is any room to build an additional runway because of the airports location. And I think building a new airport is definitely out of the question. I doubt that taxpayers nor the airlines would be willing to invest in another airport at this point and time.
 
Trvlr
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RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Thu May 06, 2004 12:42 am

Cjuniel:

British Airways also called their service a "moderate success". Like most other transatlantic services, it became "disappointing" under the weight of 9/11, Iraq, and a broader economic downturn. But as Boeing pointed out, SAN and the broader economy are showing signs of recovery, which leads me to believe that a resumption of SAN's suspended international services (SAN-LHR, SAN-YYZ, SAN-YVR) not very far off.

I have already discussed reasons for British Airways' suspension numerous times. Please see https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1484093/6/ and https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1484093/6/.

Aaron G.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 10, 2004 7:02 am

Mark777300: Zip code 33137 and 33138 are two of the hotest real state areas in the country Downtwon Miami will have more the 40,000 new Atpartments up bye 2008. Prices are going up all over but in areas near downtown like Mourning Side on US-1 6 years ago an house could be bought there for $150,000 now the cheapest is $450,000 if you are lucky. Yes I agree with you on AFB MIA and FLL cant really expand much more MIA will need a new regional airport with in 40 years I think.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: Cities That Would Benefit From "2nd Airport"

Mon May 10, 2004 7:45 am

I agree that SAN is a problem, I visited there last year. The airport is very centrally located but so obviously crowded. BA Reported that their LHR service was 'disappointing', however I can't help but feel that the service wasn't marketed properly (respond BA if you dare!) There is a sufficient market for a major European Operator to crack this marvelous city. I work in a travel agents and we are always selling tickets to SAN via EWR,ORD,ATL...Etc from Europe. From what I saw a second runway is not possible at Lindbergh field so a new airport must be built to keep San Diego growing!

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