eddieho
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 6:08 am

Guys,

His remarks are nothing but remarks that are made when competition is stiff!!! This happens many times, including:

- Politics
- Intel vs. Athlon
- Cable Internet vs. DSL Internet
- Microsoft vs. Linux
- Anything else where there are 2 major competitors
- and of course, Airbus vs. Boeing

I would just disregard it... talk is cheap. Happy flying
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 6:09 am

VANGUARD737

Above you claim "That Airbusdork is just scared of Boeing, let him to his bad mouthing if it makes him less scared of Boeing superiority. Right Europe?"

Why on earth would Airbus be scared of Boeing and their 7E7, if the 7E7 hasnt even flown yet.
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 6:11 am

"Despite the hype Boeing is trying to create (all the ads and such), the B7E7 is mainly intended as a replacement plane for the B767 segment, it is NOT going to change aviation" - this has nothing to do with the topic. Unless everything else, besides, probably, DC3, B707 and B747, is a "Chinese copy" too.

"Also isn't the B7E7 for a great part Asian?" - a great one! Liked it, indeed  Smile...
 
Northwest717
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:47 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 6:16 am

I think that such statements are not thoroughly thought through and are very unprofessional. Just as Boeing made it's statements about their disappointment in Iberia's A346 decision (which I might add was at least somewhat polite, and did not include copyright slander) , this statement made about the 7E7 is very ignorant. Just as Boeing found out you don't make public your disapproval of your customer's choices, Airbus will discover that slander such as this will only turn off their now loyal customers.

Respectively,

Tim
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1740
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 6:33 am

The 7E7 is obviously starting to hurt 330 sales.

Ruscoe
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7008
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 6:53 am

The problem is that in the USA Boeing is considered "the lighthouse" of innovative American industries, and that is with very good reason.

Commenting without praise on Boeing products is considered almost a religious offence like criticizing French cheese or Swiss watches. Or even Belgian beer. You are in deep trouble if you ever try that.

Mr. Foregaard should know that.

In Europe, on the other hand, Airbus is considered just another industry which you may comment upon the same way as any trivial GM or Ford car. As long as you are fairly factual, most things goes.

Airbus is a multinational company, therefore no real patriotism can stick to it. Engineering pride, yes. But patriotism, no.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
AvObserver
Posts: 2605
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 7:23 am

"Why on earth would Airbus be scared of Boeing and their 7E7, if the 7E7 hasnt even flown yet."

Possibly because Boeing has a great track record of delivering on or exceeding performance expectations with new models, most recent example: the 777-300ER. If the 7E7 lives up to Boeing's projections, as seems most likely, the A330-200 is at a serious competitive disadvantage that will begin to be reflected in lost sales campaigns. If you check out AW&ST and FI, you'll see reports on an almost weekly basis about airlines looking hard at the 7E7; SIA is another likely candidate which has thus far rejected the A332, according to an FI article this week, due to weight. Although Airbus has fielded a proposal for a modified, lighter A332, it appears the 7E7 has the inside track to take this campaign. As AW&ST noted, ANA's launch order puts pressure on other competitive Asian carriers to follow suit. I'm sure Forgeard meant no disrespect to the Chinese with his comment but perceptions of many may well view it that way. As a salesman, he's merely putting the appropriate spin out, considering his firm's position. Boeing continues to pooh-pooh the A380, despite great evidence it may well kill off the 747 in the next few years (if Boeing fails to launch the proposed 'Advanced' derivative). Since Airbus won't be able to field a proper 7E7 competitor for some time, the only near-term ploy for them is to rhetorically undermine the new Boeing as best they can, hoping they can dissuade at least a few potential customers. I've a feeling, however, this will be like trying to stop an avalanche with a snowball as I see a coming cascade of 7E7 orders, given all the airlines in negotiation over it. I doubt too many of them will buy the "Chinese copy" comparison.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
usatoeze
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:22 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:15 am

If the range on the 7E7-200 ends up being well over 8000nm as Boeing predicts, Airbus would have a reason to be scared. This could mean that if an airline desired they could replace their whole fleet of widebodies with the different versions of 7E7s. Hardly similar to the decent range of a very good airplane the 332, which by the way still should have beaten the MD-11 in the survey.
War is a very poor political tool
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:17 am

Hardly similar to the decent range of a very good airplane the 332, which by the way still should have beaten the MD-11 in the survey.

give it a break the Md-11 has to win something
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:20 am

Roberta, I like your sense of Humor, espc # 51!...  Smile

"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
usatoeze
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:22 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:28 am

give it a break the Md-11 has to win something>

It would win if the category was "Shortest time from production to Victorville" or "Hardest widebody to flare"
War is a very poor political tool
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:35 am

It is rumored that you work for Airbus and own lots of stock in the company. Is that true? If so. Will you marry me?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:45 am

Like the way Boeing dropped the -400 sized 737 when they made the NG's as Airbus didnt have a 734 sized A32X. now there's a gaping big whole between the 73G/A319 and the 738/A320


The 734, 738, and A320 are within 10% of each other in size.

N
 
Akumas
Posts: 423
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 8:56 am

Personally, I wouldn't call it a 'copy'.
I think Boeing is just 'attacking' back against the A330, with their 7E7.
It's competition really. After all, Airbus are building(built the first one?) a double decker plane, I wonder if Boeing will call Airbus copy cats?

No I'm not a Boeing fanboy, to be honest I'm an Airbus fanboy :P
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 10:10 am

"if you read reply 48 and 51 you'll notice i wasnt asking you AvOb"

Roberta, I wasn't trying to be rude by horning in on your argument but I had to comment on why you seem to think Airbus doesn't feel threatened by the 7E7. There's good reason for them to feel threatened, despite Forgeard's posturing. As we've seen time and again, new designs eventually prevail over older ones. We've lately seen the more vintage 747, despite updates, losing out to the 777 and the A340NG and also the A380. In this market segment, we've seen the A300 give way to the newer 767, which in turn, gave way to the even newer A330. It stands to reason the A332 will give way to the 7E7 because it's a shrink of a larger design and therefore, heavy in comparison to the new Boeing optimized for this size class with lighter composite construction and newer overall technology. Privately, Airbus realizes this and is already at work on a comparable design (Bank on it!). Publicly, they must maintain a brave front even as they know the 7E7 is about to seriously kick the A332's butt in the sales race. For this to NOT happen, Boeing would have to screw up badly, extremely unlikely given their track record. At some point, Airbus may field a mid-market airplane that gives the 7E7 a run for its money or better; it just won't be right away. They've chosen to bet on the large-airplane market so they're currently vulnerable in the medium-size segment until the A380 program hits breakeven. Professionally, Forgeard is saying the right thing for his company, even if his choice of wording was questionable.
 
Northwest717
Posts: 612
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 11:18 am

Roberta, I have a great deal of respect for you, but I believe that this forum was created so that people could voice their opinions. When one speaks in here, one essentially is speaking to everybody . Even if you note who you are speaking to, you are still subject to comments because everybody sees the posts, not just who you are aiming at. I see nothing wrong with AvObserver commenting on your post, as long as his opinion was constructive (which appeared to be). Just my 2 cents.  Smile

Respectively,

Tim
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
BOEING787
Posts: 151
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 5:47 pm

I see an apology from him to the Chinese Aviation authorities soon........
 
sq452
Posts: 996
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 5:57 pm

Think if i were Chinese I would take that as an "insult" by the Airbus guy. I think he meant, "pirated copy" and could have been worded a lot better than that, he's implying that China is the "copy cat" center of the world.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
carnoc
Posts: 758
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 9:23 pm

Well, no-one actually knows how this is going to 'develop'...

But, one thing for sure, some Chinese officials don't like that term as I have already got some negative comments from various aviation 'insiders' (No China-based media have reported it yet)...

Overall, I don't think this is going to largely affect the relationship between China and Airbus, but it is doubtless that some decision-makers (here in China) would certainly take it into account in one way or another...

Cheers.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5159
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 9:50 pm

I know enough about salesmanship that when one starts making disparaging comments about the competitor's product, then the product must be pretty good. Or at least it is better than one you are trying to sell.

If LH places an order, and there are plenty of media reports saying that this will happen, then Mr. Foregard may have to explain to the Airbus board why a loyal customer is buying Chinese copies.
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 10:39 pm

Ckfred - LH was a loyal customer for Boeing for years, LH till 1975 had an All-Boeing fleet. So: Airbust must be pretty good then  Wink/being sarcastic

Maybe the same reason why B tries to bash the 380!

Anyway: I don't think the 7E7 is same as 330.
 
UAMAYBACH1239
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:46 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 10:55 pm

Only Airbus can make a Chinese copy, Boeng created the 767 , an not from a previous Airbus model.
a/c flown 737-222/322/522 757/747-1-2-4, 767-2-3, 777-2-3, A319-20, DC10-10-30, L1011-3-5, 727-222adv, MD85-90 flyourfri
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 10:58 pm

An 8-abreast medium-sized twinjet made in Asia.

I think there are a lot of people in China who would take offense to your characterization that Japan and China are both part of Asia, so a plane that has major construction in Japan should be called a "Chinese Copy" of another aircraft. Probably a lot of people in Japan feeling the same way.

Let's face it: It was a stupid thing to say, but this Politically Correct bull$#it isn't worth fighting over.

Besides which, he's just scared the 7E7 is going to steal orders away from his (currently) premier aircraft. In his position, I'd be scared, too. If he focused more on selling his bird than ridiculing the other...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Wed May 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Why on earth would Airbus be scared of Boeing and their 7E7, if the 7E7 hasnt even flown yet.

Because the benfits and potential are real.
 
spyglass
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 12:12 am

Hmmm....been away from this forum for a while...I see nothing's changed. Still a lot of heat and very little light about anything...Foregard said what?...Chinese copy?....so?....who cares? What difference does it make? Will Boeing drag Airbus over to the Hague for a hearing? Will the Chinese delegation make a scene (such as has been done here) at the UN? All the fleet planners at the world's carriers will all of a sudden avoid the 7E7 like it had SARS? I think not...worse things are said on the international scene daily. Remember, as the wag said, opinions are like sphincters....everybody has one (some seem to have two, one at either end)...in fact, thinking back over some of the drivel I've seen here over the last year, some may even BE one...may not know what it is or how to spell it but that doesn't matter....
chow
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 7:41 am

Apparently Airbus is worried and they would be stupid not to be. They know Boeing puts out very well designed and built airplanes. Airbus has spent the vast majority of its existence trying to catch up with Boeing.

While the majority of Airbus and Boeing products are now somewhat comparable (although I think the 777 will edge out the 340 in the long run), the 330-200 is their one product which is far superior to Boeing's comparable product. In the early 90s, it was rumored that the 767-300 was Boeing's most profitable airplane.The 330-200 essentially decimated the 767 program. Now that Boeing is going after its rival cash-cow, Airbus is properly scared.

Although I think it is acceptable to talk down your rival's product, Airbus would be better served if they had less of an obnoxious loudmouth and more of a circumspect and measured personality.
 
backfire
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 8:20 pm

Oh, and when can we start calling the 7e7 the 787?

Never! It'll be the 808



Don't count your chickens just yet, either of you. Boeing's 7E7 programme chief has been quoted very recently as saying that the company has seen much more "brand equity" in the 7E7 name than Boeing expected.

So don't be surprised if it stays as the 7E7.


 
skymileman
Posts: 577
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 8:55 pm

Boy, Airbus is sure arrogant assuming that Boeing is copying them. Those two fight worse than a couple of little kids. "A chinese copy". Not the case by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 9:06 pm

Yes, we now all know: Boeing builts the best planes and that is why A fears B a lot.
But sorry, it's little strange to hear that we Europeans are arrogant. Look into your own mirror!
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 9:45 pm

StefanDote, mein Frankfurter Freund und hoffentlich Eintracht-Anhaenger!!

Let's take facts... who produces and sells more aeroplanes... Big grin

C'mon guys, stop fighting... both are good aeroplanes and claiming airbus and europeans are arrogant is definitely a desparate attack without profound basis... please try to keep quality of your arguments and don't condemn other people of things if same could apply to you

Of course I have my preferences, too (I won't tell them now, everyone who knows me knows them). Can't we just agree saying that hopefully both aeroplanes are successful and jobs are secured and new ones created for the sake of human beings??

[Edited 2004-05-13 14:52:02]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
cx123
Posts: 683
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 10:14 pm

So the 7e7 are not Made in USA anymore?? How sad!!!! What will happen to the Seattle plant?
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Thu May 13, 2004 10:22 pm

Cx123

Who said the 7E7 will not be made in the US? Boeing spent a good amount of time searching for a production site for the 7E7 and, if I'm not mistaken, they chose to stay in Seattle for at least the final production of the aircraft. The Seattle plant (Everett) still produces the 777, 747, and 767s and will be for some time, so it won't be going anywhere.
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Fri May 14, 2004 3:24 am

"Airbus is sure arrogant assuming that Boeing is copying them" - absolutely. Poor Stefan.de, don't be so sorry  Smile...
 
AA777
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Fri May 14, 2004 1:56 pm

Eh... everyone naturally fears the competition. the 7e7 is probably going to be a hit with the airlines, after all, it has amazing fuel consumption, and range capabilities that are unmatched in the segment. BUT, Airbus has the A380, which is also unmatched by boeing. So, I cant say I know why Airbus's leader is saying all these things about the 7e7. Moreover, the 7e7 is so completley different from the A332 that its not even funny! Just look at it! Do you see those wings, the nose & rudder on the A332? No. Not to mention the bleedless engines, larger windows....etc etc. Chinese copy? Not so much-- more like a leap ahead.

-AA777

 
mark777300
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:30 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Fri May 14, 2004 2:16 pm

I rarely pay attention to what anyone says from both Boeing or Airbus. It doesn't make a difference what they say, in the end, the airlines will come and purchase the aircrafts. Airlines are not concerned with the comments, they want results from the aircrafts. But I hardly see a resemblence between the 7E7 and the A330.
 
User avatar
HA_DC9
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 1999 3:16 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Fri May 14, 2004 2:28 pm

I hope you're wrong, Roberta...808 sounds like an area code!

808 is an area code....for the state of Hawaii.  Big thumbs up
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13308
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Fri May 14, 2004 5:36 pm

Leaf out the cosmetical nose & tail of the 7e7 and you see pretty much a A330.

However airlines don't care, they look at price, performance, capasity.

Boeing probably did the right thing to dive right in the center of the Airbus portfolio.

I think the 7E7 short range variant is worrying Airbus. The 330-200/300 can be improved with new engines & smart Awiator innovations & match the base line & streched variants.

The short/medium range 7E7 variant is an issue at Airbus IMO.

During the last 20 years Boeing was quick to react on Airbus products.
A300/310 (mid/late seventies) ->B757, 767 (early eighties)
A320 (mid eighties)->B737CG/NG (late eighties/nineties)
A333/343 (early nineties) -> B777 (1995)
A345/346 (2002) -> B772LR/773ER (2004)
A332 (1998) -> B7e7 (2008)

With the A332 Boeing waited to long to react IMO. Therefor the A332 now has market domination. Boeing is fighting back with promises, unmatched media campaigns and political lobbying until they have a competitor in the air.

I would do the same if I were Boeing
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 3:29 am

Keesje... Give up your jibberish. Please.

Boeing react to Airbus?

Man. History revision is fun eh???

The 300 was a direct development to compete with the DC-10/L-1011. American Airlines wanted a twin engine widebody. Airbus built it, and American didn't buy it for some time.

The 737 is well established (since 1967), and only an upgrade today. Not a response to the A-320 family.

The 757 began development in 1975 and entered service in 79, not the 80's.

Launched in 1984, the A320 entered airline service in April 1988 and rapidly established itself as the industry standard for passenger comfort and economy on short and medium-haul routes. Typically seating 150 passengers in two classes with a range of up to 5,700km/3,050nm, the A320 is in widespread service on six continents, flying routes that range from short European commuter sectors, through European charter operations to coast-to-coast US flights.

Entering service in early 1994, the A321 seats 185 passengers in two classes and has a range of up to 5,600km/3,000nm. The A319, which was first delivered in April 1996, continues to prove its versatility, enabling carriers to benefit from its range options and seat layout flexibility. In addition to the standard 124-seat model, which has a range of up to 6,800km/3,700nm, there is an option, as ordered by easyJet, allowing increased seating efficiency with typically up to 156 seats. There is also the newly-launched 48-seat A319 Long Range that went into service in May 2003 with PrivatAir on behalf of Lufthansa.


A-330 dominates? It's a 767 competitor. A-330 Orders: 261/Deliveries: 156. 767 Delivered: 919.

[Edited 2004-05-14 20:46:12]
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 4:11 am

Just a thought....

I think I'd rather have my 7E7 called a Chinese Copy of an A-330 after a peoples who have dignity and honor, rather than my A-320 be called a French copy of a 737.
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 4:12 am

KEESJE, I agree with BoeingGoingGone...you're flat out wrong in your information!

The 777 program was launched in 1990 with an order from UAL.
The 757 program was started on 8/31/78 w/go ahead in '79
The 767 program was launched on 7/14/78.

(courtesy boeing.com)

The A320 program was an obvious response to Boeing's firm hold on the 737 size a/c. The NG program was an update to a thriving line of airplanes.

Boeing didn't react to Airbus, as it was the industry leader and Airbus was a fledgling company at that point.
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 8:33 am

The 300 was a direct development to compete with the DC-10/L-1011.

No it was not...

American Airlines wanted a twin engine widebody. Airbus built it, and American didn't buy it for some time.

...what makes you think that the A300 was developed for AA?

A-330 dominates? It's a 767 competitor. .

How many orders for the 767 since the first A330 was built? The A330 more than dominated: it killed the 767.

E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
soaringadi
Posts: 452
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 8:57 am

ha !!
And my boss calls the 380 a french copy of his pregnant wife !!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Looks like Airbus boss sure has taken some lessons in playing the "kids' game".
Hey Bus boss if you are listening how about taking some classes in some educational field and also find a new slogan for your company.......


new slogan for the busses.....

******* We are trying to make our planes climb faster, and thus not trying to sacre the hell out of the pax.*******


Hey Concordeboy...... where r u man ????? where's ur reply ???

Have fun  Smile
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9270
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 9:08 am

...what makes you think that the A300 was developed for AA?

Not the A300B2, but Airbus was desperate to sign a North American customer for the A300-600.

How many orders for the 767 since the first A330 was built? The A330 more than dominated: it killed the 767.
Yeah.. let's look into that. Assuming that the launch of the A330 was made by Air Inter in 1989, Airbus has since sold 212 A330-300 and 261 A330-200.

Before 1989, Boeing sold-
762 (124)
762ER (89)
763 (62)
763ER (170)

Total (445)

After 1989, Boeing sold-
762 (4)
762ER (29)
763 (42)
763ER (334)
763F (40)
764ER (37)

Total (496)

Total 767 sales = 941

---

In the first half of the 767s life (1978-1989), Boeing averaged about 40 orders a year. In the second half of the 767s life (1990-2004), Boeing averaged about 35 orders a year, as well as introducing the 767-300F and 767-400ER models. So yes, 767 sales fell after the introduction of the A330, but it did not "dominate" it in anyway. Airbus still has a long way to go before overturning the 2:1 sales superiority of the 767.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 9:10 am

Wouldn't it have to have a stamp on it that says "Made in China"? Everything I pick up in the stores do.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 9:45 am

So yes, 767 sales fell after the introduction of the A330, but it did not "dominate" it in anyway.

DfwRevolution, BoingGoingGone was refering the 330 as a direct competitor to the 767 but only the 332 is a direct competitor. So, since the first 332 was built (not ordered, built!) the 332 has dominated the 767.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 10:29 am

So, since the first 332 was built (not ordered, built!) the 332 has dominated the 767

First of all, aircraft are launched upon their first order, not their first flight. Hence why the 7E7, which is years from being built, was launched only a few weeks ago.

Second, since you point out that only the A330-200 competes with the 767, I will eliminate the A330-300 orders from the equation.

Third, lets refine the data to reflect the launch date of the A330-200, November 1995. Since November 1995, Airbus has sold 261 A332s.

Boeing 767 Orders After November 1995-

762 (0)
762ER (18)
763 (6)
763ER (193)
763F (9)
764ER (37)

Total (263)

----

As great an aircraft as the A330-200 is, I see no reason to believe that it is dominating, as you say, over the 767. Would you like to refine the data again in your favor? InsaneMaybe 2002-2004 sales?

I don't doubt that the 767 is an aging airframe, but duh, that's why it is being replaced by the 7E7 in the first place.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 10:47 am

First of all, aircraft are launched upon their first order, not their first flight.

Try again. You misread post 90. I used right from the beginning the word "Built" as a reference and I don't care whether you like it or not. You selected another date and that's fine by me but you certainly did not prove me wrong by doing so.

E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
RipleyD
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 10:04 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 10:57 am

I think it is correct to say that the A332 killed the 767. But I also think it is extremely unlikely that the A332 will come anywhere close to the number of deliveries the 767 has achieved in its run. If Boeing delivers on its promises for the 7E7, it will likely become the preferred airframe in that market until Airbus is able to answer with a brand new airplane.

Anyway, I thought the 767 was Boeing response to the DC10 and A300/A310? Maybe a better comparison would be A300/A310/A332 deliveries vs B767 deliveries?

Cheers
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 1:19 pm

**Bring back the days when each aircraft manufacturer had unique aircraft, is what i say.**

When was that?

The 1970s? DC-10 and the L1011
The 1960s? DC-9, F-28, BAC-111?
or the 1940s/50s? Lockheed Constellation? Douglass DC-7? Boeing Stratoliner?
turboprops- Lockheed Electra? Vickers Viscount?
Twin props- DC-3, Convair 240/340/440, Martin 404?
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9270
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 1:55 pm

I used right from the beginning the word "Built" as a reference and I don't care whether you like it or not. You selected another date and that's fine by me but you certainly did not prove me wrong by doing so

The data I presented in post 95 reflects all 767 sales after the first A330-200 order was placed

I don't care if you cannot understand the concept of launching a new product. The "launch" is when the aircraft is officaly available for order, has recieved an order, and development and production may continue. The moment an aircraft has been launched, you must accept this date as the start of comparison, because ultimatly it is when competition begins. In a way, the launch order is the first order the competing product looses.

Airlines don't give a damn that the aircraft hasn't flown, what they hell do you think launch orders are in the first place? The A380 has stolen 747 orders and it has not flown. The 7E7 has stolen A330 orders and it has not flown.

Most aircraft have a decent backlog before the first flight even takes place. It doesn't matter that the A330 has been flying for the last 10 years, now that the 7E7 has been launched you can no longer call it a paper plane, and it can now enter direct bids against the A330, as is going on right now in Singapore. We are simply comparing the 767 to the A330, rather than the A330 to the 7E7.

Now after that rant, the A330-200 was launched in November 1995, with the first order recieved Februrary 1996. If you still cannot comprehend the concept of an aircraft launch then let us play the number game once again shall we?

----
- From November 1995 through May 2004, Airbus has sold exactly 261 A330-200

- From August 17, 1997 (the first flight as you so anally demand) to May 2004, Boeing has sold exactly-

762 (0)
762ER (17)
763 (1)
763ER (129)
763F (9)
764 (16)

Total 767 sales after the A330-200 first flew - 172

---

To recap, A330 sales since Februrary 1996 are 51% higher than 767 sales since August 1997. Congradulations, now that you have managed to stack the numbers against the 767 you have proven that the A330-200 enjoys a 89-frame order superiority over the 2-decade old 767. What if we took away those extra 19 months of orders the A332 has? Would that 89-frame lead remain... Uhh.. NO!

Return the figures to an unbiased date, and the 767 had held its own.

If you want domination go check out the 777, which has sold 283-frames more than the A340-all variants.

[Edited 2004-05-15 07:00:04]
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.

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