vfw614
Posts: 3810
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 6:50 pm

How about looking at "new orders" instead of overall orders which include repeat business an aircraft launched 17 years later than the Boeing 767 cannot have ? How many NEW customers, i.e. airlines that have not been using Boeing 767s in the past, has Boeing won with the 767 since the A330-200 has been around ? It is plain obvious that airlines like Delta, American or Continental make up the bulk of the orders you refer to and they have been flying the B767 since 1983/1984 (with the exception of CO which I will leave in the list anyway because G. Bethune would even order a Ford Tri-Motor if it was re-launched by his former employer Boeing). The economics for an airline operating 50+ B767s are totally different when it comes to making a decision between additional B767 or an order for Airbus A330-200s. Additionally, if you quote the B767-300F sales, you might just as well include the A300F sales as this is the competitor to the B767-300F.

I think we can rest the case by saying that the A330-200 indeed killed the B767. If not, why should Boeing bother building a B7E7. They could simply put some new gimmicks into their B767s and sell them as B767NG like they have down with the 1968 vintage B737 and remain competitive.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 7:03 pm

DfwRevolution,

why can't you just admit that both are good aircraft? Both the B767 and the 330 - while one has served brilliantly in the past and will serve brillianty in the future and has proven to be a reliable product, the other is a nice and modern product with likely a great future?? Why do you try to prove with unreliable data that one is much superior than the other??

Just read Vfw614 reply twice or even more often, it gives you some hint how to operate properly with data without trying to turn the arguments in your favor.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 11:37 pm

If you want domination go check out the 777, which has sold 283-frames more than the A340-all variants.

well you have to consider the A333 which is also a 777 and is part of the same family and exactly the same sze as the A343

A343 A333 A345 A346 = 535 orders

772 772ER 773 773ER 772LR = 633 orders

so the difference is actually only 98
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9285
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sat May 15, 2004 11:53 pm

How many NEW customers, i.e. airlines that have not been using Boeing 767s in the past, has Boeing won with the 767 since the A330-200 has been around ?

How many A330-200 customers were existing A330-300 customers when the A332 was launched?

why can't you just admit that both are good aircraft?

My passenger preference is for the A332, but to say the A332 has dominated the 767 is simply not true.

Why do you try to prove with unreliable data that one is much superior than the other??

Unreliable data... as in, the offical order tallies from Boeing and Airbus? I compared every 767 sale from the day the A330-200 was launched through today. That is the only fair comparison you can make.

Just read Vfw614 reply twice or even more often, it gives you some hint how to operate properly with data without trying to turn the arguments in your favor.

Again, I started with the day the first A330-200 order was placed, then tallied every 767 order that took place after that date. You cannot get any more fair than that.

Of course, Vwf614 want's to measure the orders taken after the first flight. This date has absolutly no meaning to the sales of an aircraft. Airlines don't wait for an aircraft to fly. If you want to compare A332 sales after the first flight, then you must eliminate all launch orders from the equation, or you give the A332 19 extra months of sales. Is that fair?

No matter which way you spin the numbers, the 767 has held its own against the A330.

Additionally, if you quote the B767-300F sales, you might just as well include the A300F sales as this is the competitor to the B767-300F.

A 767 is a 767, would you eliminate all A380F orders from the current A380 backlog? Maybe Airbus will finally offer an A330-200F

If not, why should Boeing bother building a B7E7.

I already admitted the 767 was an agining aircraft, in just about each one of my posts. The 7E7 is perfectly timed to recover the maximum amount of 767/A300/A310 replacement, and will slaughter the A332.

Regards,
DFW
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sun May 16, 2004 12:05 am

Maybe Airbus will finally offer an A330-200F

They are

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1515582/4/

As for the 767, although it get 100 odd orders during the A332's life span a lot of these may have been from airlines who already operate the 767 and were simply adding to the fleet. I think a similar thing will happen with the A332 when the 7E7 arrives, it will continue to pick up orders from airlines who already operate it. There is no doubt the A332 is all round a better plane than the 763 but this is ineveitable, given it is a lot younger than the A332. Anyway the 767 is one of my favorites and i will be sad to see the line eventually closed, as well as the 757. stupid 7E7  Pissed .
 
Archie Bunker
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2000 3:22 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sun May 16, 2004 12:11 am

A343 A333 A345 A346 = 535 orders

772 772ER 773 773ER 772LR = 633 orders

so the difference is actually only 98



Umm, that's quite a lot missy, especially for an aircraft that was launched a few years later than the A330/340.

[Edited 2004-05-15 17:15:49]
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sun May 16, 2004 12:25 am

Umm, that's quite a lot missy, especially for an aircraft that was launched years later than the A330/340.

not really

about a 5:6 ratio, or 18%.

and 3 years isnt a lifetime either, especially in aviation.

nor has the fat lady sung, there is still a good few years of the A340NG vrs 777ER/LR orders which can change things.

and who said i was commenting, i was just giving correct information. You cannot shoot me for that.

[Edited 2004-05-15 17:28:34]
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sun May 16, 2004 4:18 am

I don't care if you cannot understand the concept of launching a new product. The "launch" is when the aircraft is officaly available for order, has recieved an order, and development and production may continue.

Again, your are off the track. I specified a "date"; it could have been the launch date, it could have 1993 or 2000, etc. but you selected another date (the launch date) and by choosing another timeline, you never contradicted what I wrote.

If you want domination go check out the 777, which has sold 283-frames more than the A340-all variants.

Your point? We were saying that the 332 outsold the 763. Yes, the 772ER outsold the 343 but what does that imply to the 332 or 763?

The 767 was a pioneer aircraft, maybe even more than the 747 was but that doesn’t change the fact that the 767 was killed by the 332 (just like the the 7E7 will "stamp out" 332 orders before 2010)
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
carnoc
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 3:15 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Sun May 16, 2004 8:02 pm

Well, well, well, seems Airbus wants to ignore the comment of 'Chinese Copy' said by their boss (keep playing games with their Chinese customers and government officials), as I was reading an official press release from Airbus China, it gives specific details on Foregard's talk, but without having a single word on his saying about 'Chinese Copy' and blah blah blah...

Best Regards.
 
A330Jamaica
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:14 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Mon May 17, 2004 2:00 pm

If I were Fouregard, I would be worried too. The market for airliners is going to shrink in the next decade and will not be able to handle two new types (A380 and 7E7) entering. There will not be enough fuel available to allow a growing aviation market. He realizes this now and is very worried. What surprises me is that Boeing knows this as well and still launched the 7E7. Maybe they are gambling on the fact that a reduced market will mean better demand for a smaller aircraft. The question I have for both manufacturers however is "Do airlines buy new equipment in a declining industry when the economic advantages are not significant enough?" A 20% reduction in fuel burn is not going to be enough to counter fuel shortages caused by competition from other transportation modes, chemical industries and agriculture for oil.

This is not a hypothetical situation any longer; it is very clear that world oil production is peaking right now or will soon peak (definitely by 2015). Even the investment community is realizing the situation now. All producers outside the Middle East are now either at peak production or have already started to decline. The United States peaked 33 years ago and one by one, other countries have been passing their peak as well. If I were the aviation industry, I would be seriously considering my options because this is not a growth industry in the next twenty to thirty years. Air transport is the most energy intensive transportation mode and will suffer disproportionately from fuel shortages. To achieve reasonable energy use comparative to surface transport, airlines must operate at very high load factors > 70% which will be unlikely once tourism starts to decline, further compounding the situation.
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Mon May 17, 2004 6:27 pm

DFW,

I agree with your statistics.

I say we start the competitiion on, say Jan 1, 2004. A330-200, negative 9 orders vs 2 for the 767 and 50 for the 7e7. Heck, even the 747 is dominating the A380.. 5 to 0. LOL

Cheers
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Mon May 17, 2004 8:33 pm

The 300 was a direct development to compete with the DC-10/L-1011.

No it was not...


Um... Check your history.

...what makes you think that the A300 was developed for AA?

Do a google search. I'm certain you'll find something. Airbus was desperate for an American customer which is why they selected GE engines. For a while they even gave cut rate leases to Eastern to get them into the North American market.

How many orders for the 767 since the first A330 was built? The A330 more than dominated: it killed the 767.

Roughly the same and in a couple of years we'll be saying the same of what the 7E7 has done to the 330.



 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Mon May 17, 2004 11:22 pm

Do a google search. I'm certain you'll find something.

What I will find is that the A300 was NOT built for AA. Talk about history revision… Nuts
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Guest

RE: Airbus-Boss Calls 7E7 A "Chinese Copy"

Mon May 17, 2004 11:45 pm

Sorry bro. Did a paper on this many a year ago when the information was fresh and readily available.

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