Let the rumours fly!

Reuters
Southwest says it could add another city in 2005
Wednesday May 19, 1:27 pm ET

DALLAS, May 19 (Reuters) - Low-cost carrier Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News), which recently launched its service in Philadelphia, said on Wednesday it would probably add one new city to its service in 2005. The company said it would probably not add any new cities this year.

I head this morning on KDKA (local radio station) that Southwest was "very interested" in moving into PIT. Sorry I don't have any more info, could probably try the station's website http://www.kdka.com.

-KG3

Would they ever come to Denver?? I know the gate fees here are psycho high.. and there are alot of LCC here i.e. Frontier and Ted but would the come into this market??

Looks like it's time for me to start raising my hopes that WN will come to CAE.

OMG! A CITY!

I heard rumors from an airport manager regarding the initiation of service by WN in 2005, but I don't care to repeat hearsay.

N

I wish SW would come to MSP or DSM!!!
 

Pittsburgh seems extremely obvious with the announcement that US will be dropping PIT from their hub network. WN could easily fill 25-35 daily flights to a number of destinations....

Truthfully, PIT seems likely with the US pullout. WN may see an opportunity opening up for them there and might be wise to take it.

I believe that they were in DEN a while ago but UA handed them their ass and they closed up shop and left. Actually the front runner to open up shop in PIT is Mesa. Not as an express carrier but flying under the Mesa colors. They already have 8 737-300's ready to go that are out in PHX in a hangar and have sent numerous management and financial people to PIT to talk.

Mesa has mainline jets?   News to me.

Do you think WN would start PHL-PIT service if they did open shop at PIT? Talking about having balls!

There's space available at PIT, but what will it cost? PIT and DEN are in the same boat as far as landing fees are concerned and that's the reason that WN has stayed away. I don't know how an airport can collect fees from empty gates, so PIT is going to have to find a way to drop the fees if they ever want to attract a carrier of any size.

yep they are 8 leased 737-300's painted and ready to go as we have been told by management and several pilots who have been out in PHX. I believe they are being stored at Goodyear, where ever that is, as I have never been out there, but thats what we have heard

Would they ever come to Denver?? I know the gate fees here are psycho high.. and there are alot of LCC here i.e. Frontier and Ted but would the come into this market??

We've all been told to "never say never," but it's not much of a stretch to say that WN will never come to DEN. WN had service to DEN long ago, but the high fees and heavy delays at Stapleton made the operation very unprofitable and inefficient. So, they pulled out, and there is still reportedly bad blood between WN, DEN, and according to some people, Colorado in general (this is why some people say WN won't go to COS). Plus, you're right about Frontier and TED; this much LCC competition simply makes it too risky for WN to launch service. The same general factors are true for ATL as well.

As far as the new city is concerned, I bet the odds-on favorite is PIT. USAirways has historically had the highest fares in the industry, and WN prides itself on "liberating" communities from high fares. Hence, it wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

I remember a time when you could hardly keep up with the number of new cities WN added per year. Now, it's maybe 1 per year(?). I know they've probably grown into whatever markets they want to by now, but it still sounds funny...

Do you think WN would start PHL-PIT service if they did open shop at PIT?

FL could beat them to it, especially since:

1. They (AirTran) already have gate(s) at PIT right now.

2. They briefly offered the route before.

A similar service revival happened last year when FL resurrected PHL-BOS service.

"FL could beat them to it"

They need the jets first. I wish they could speed up deliverys. The extra 717s they ordered yesterday are not arriving until 05. How successful was this route before?

I believe that they were in DEN a while ago but UA handed them their ass and they closed up shop and left

Ding! Ding! Ding! Wrong!

DEN-Stapleton was so busy that it constantly had delays, which caused constant dealy issues in WN's route system, which with their quick-turn mentality, was not a good thing. So WN dropped the city rather than face more and more delays and cxlations.

Anyway, it's a stretch to think that WN will go to DEN, but I don't see why they don't serve PIT already? Didn't they serve PIT at one point? Or have I been hanging around the potheads on campus too often?

So nice to know I wasnt the only person thinking PIT.

I would be willing to bet that if US Airways tanks, SWA will make a move like they did in MDW when Midway went under. Getting gate space could be an issue, but one the city would be willing to work out FAST to get them into PIT no doubt.

PIT is a glaring hole in the top markets of the country (DEN being the other one). However, with US pulling out and their recent PA establishment at PHL, that would be a good bet. I can't see why they would wait that long, however, if it was simply an opportunistic move based on US leaving. There must be something else to it.

How successful was this route before?

When FL offered the PHL-PIT route in 2001-02, US matched their low fares and trounced them with their frequency of flights. To make matters worse, in the fall of 2001 (after 9/11), FL cut the number of flights from 4 to 2. Unfortunately for FL, many Pittsburgh area residents and businesses were still US loyalists at the time. However, US was not able to completely chase FL out of town. At present, FL still offers non-stop service to ATL and MCO. The Saturday FL PHL-PIT round-trip flights I was on (2 different times for Saturday day-trips) were about 50% full. Someone from FL can probably give you more accurate numbers in terms of overall service.

Fast-forward to 2004: US is more wounded now. They're now officially 'de-hubbing' PIT and could re-enter bankrupcy (along w/possible Chapter 7 liquidation) possibly by year's end. Not to be a gloom & doomer here.

I am sure that FL is paying very close attention as towards the future of US. Should things get worse for US in the coming months, I am certain FL will do what ever it takes (in terms of equipment) to re-establish the PHL-PIT service.

they were in DEN a while ago but UA handed them their ass

UAs stated:
UA, in and of itself, had zilch to do with WN pulling out of Denver.

With Lakefield having made the announcement that US is cutting back in PIT this fall, that makes PIT a lot more attractive for US. I join InnocuousFox and the others who see PIT as a good possibility.

Garnet, I've long thought that CAE would be a good fit for WN. It's right in the middle of the state and could draw from all the other metro areas. Is any part of the state much more than a 2-hour drive from CAE? I'd bet WN could easily run 10-12 dailies out of CAE.

If US goes CH. 7, it's not hard to imagine WN grabbing a bunch of US's 737-300's and jumping into several US medium-size markets like ROC, SYR, DAY, GSO, and RIC. It would help secure WN's market position in the East, where B6 and FL's nimbleness has helped them grow quickly, and build even more feed for BWI.

Jim

(By the way, since it came up re: JetBlue as well, I'm planning a thread on the mathematical balance between expansion and over-expansion in the airline industry... I'm just too drugged out on pain-killers right now to do it. Back surgery next week, ya know?)

I think the new city is going to be on the west coast.

I understand that San Bernadino, CA is trying to lure carriers to the currently unused San Bernadino International Airport-SBD (converted air force base). That area of Southern California (called the Inland Empire) is growing by leaps and bounds (4 million people within 60 miles of the airport), and I think with enough financial incentives to WN (or any other airline) its only a matter of time before we see scheduled service out of SBD. A small passenger terminal is already constructed. Additionally, it has the lowest landing fees of all Southern California airports at only .75 cents per 1000lbs vs. $1.25 at PSP, $1.93 at LAX and $1.99 at ONT.

http://www.sbdairport.com/airport.html

"DEN-Stapleton was so busy that it constantly had delays, which caused constant dealy issues in WN's route system, which with their quick-turn mentality, was not a good thing. So WN dropped the city rather than face more and more delays and cxlations."

So, why is WN invading delay-plagued PHL with such a vengeance? Won't the same thing happen there?

PIT would be a gold mine for WN.

So, why is WN invading delay-plagued PHL with such a vengeance? Won't the same thing happen there?

Not if US goes under.

i agree that an argument could be made for most of the cities listed above, and most certainly PIT. though i'm inclined to defer to the fact that the last time this came up, i don't think one person mentioned PHL as a possibility. so who knows, just dont rule out what may seem to be the most unlikely!

they were in DEN a while ago but UA handed them their ass

No body hands WN their ass. Previous comments about Stapelton and ATC were the reasons for leaving, along with no promise of terminal and gate space at the new airport. NOBODY screws with HERB.

WPXI in Pittsburgh is reporting today that WN is seriously considering PIT. The report is based on information from the Post-Gazette. I don't see it at the Post-Gazette web site though.

Supposedly WN has told the PIT airport authority it wants to serve PIT. First on the plate though is getting PHL up and running.
http://www.wpxi.com/travelgetaways/3321961/detail.html

Well, I see that if WN serves PIT.. it would maintain PHL and use PIT as a hub.. I mean.. that was US problem.. 2 hubs that close together.. That way, WN can keep a pinky on USAirways while taking yet ANOTHER hub from them.. dangit!

I think it's more and more likely that Southwest (WN) is seriously now looking at flying in and out of Colorado Springs, CO (COS).

Why not? They could use the ex-Western Pacific gates there, and COS has quite a lot of O & D traffic potential (USAF Academy, several famous year-round resorts, a number of high-tech companies, winter sports, and capturing the south Denver market). Because WN will be quickly become the dominant carrier at COS, they don't have to worry about tight ATC like it was at the old Stapleton Airport--and of course landing fees will be way cheaper than DEN!  

CONCORDEBOY,
UAL may not have had anything to do with WN pulling out of DEN, but they have a lot to do with them ever returning. UNITED/TED and F9 is the reason WN wont show the ugly mug anytime soon in the Rockies.

094147,
Nobody screws with herb? He got screwed and that is why the mustard rockets don't go to DIA!!!

And the city of DEN handed WN their ass when they wouldn't help them with gate space, so bye,bye WN.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Please NY, Please NY, Please NY,Please NY,Please NY,Please NY

Is RSW a possibility? They are over halfway through the new midfield terminal construction and i think RSW would be a good addition to he WN system  

>>>So, why is WN invading delay-plagued PHL with such a vengeance? Won't the same thing happen there?

Sure, delays will happen at PHL. The difference is in the "scale" of SWA's total system operations in the mid-1980s (when DEN Stapleton was served) and the size of the total system ops now, nearly 20 years later...

Nycfuturepilot,

By NY what do you mean..

Ithaca, Binghamton, Elmira, Utica, Massena, Plattsburgh, Niagra Falls?...

My guess is PIT, which would (assuming the demise of US in some form) be begging for a carrier, as well as providing a great airport facility to launch connections through (much like BWI is for WN today). If US pulls out of PIT, it would be left as basically the largest city in the nation without either a hub-carrier, or large competition (in the case of MCO).

Other possibilities maybe:
CLT
DAY
LEX
MSP
DIA
MEM

Long shots:
LGA
DCA/IAD
ATL
CVG

Maybe South Bend???  

They need the jets first. I wish they could speed up deliverys. The extra 717s they ordered yesterday are not arriving until 05. How successful was this route before?

There are still some of the ex-TW/AA 717s sitting out in the desert awaiting ferrying to MIA so they can be repainted and put into service for AirTran.

I very much think that it would have to be something else in the Northeast. That has been their obvious expansion ground for quite some time and adding PHL gives them a lot of options of links to complete - the foremost being PIT.

Will they try to another new city for next year in 2005 and I don't think not able flying to LGA either and because it is getting delayed in LGA. It will get slots restricted in LGA.

I wish WN would come to Billings. The airfares out of here are ridiculously high. Southwest could actually provide fares for liesure travelers here since the other carriers cater mainly the business market.

We look see about them and will able added more new city for next year in 2005.

Actually, if memory serves correctly, Southwest's pull-out from DEN happened for a couple of reasons. As others have stated, delays at Stapleton (and the impact on the rest of the company's operation) were one reason, but WN was also competing with three established hub-and-spoke carriers at DEN in the mid-1980's -- UA, CO, and Frontier (I). And in that competition, DEN-area passengers chose the other airlines when they matched Southwest's fares, making DEN unprofitable for WN. Now, remember that this happened almost 20 years ago when Southwest was a far smaller, less financially robust airline with a far weaker network, and they didn't just pull out after a few months then, either. Pinning your hopes on WN pulling out of PHL in the short term is unrealistic; after all, they stayed at delay-plagued SFO for nearly two decades. The issue of gates at the new DEN had nothing to do with it, since the new airport was little more than a long-range planning concept (if that) in 1986.

WN has had little interest in serving the new DEN due to (1) excessively high rents/fees and (2) the presence of a large network hub coupled with a good-sized pseudo-LCC hub (though Frontier has moved closer to being a true LCC in the last two years). The same is true for ATL aside from the high fees.

Why is PHL a more attractive opportunity for WN? Well, for one, PHL is clearly far more underserved than DEN, with only about 75% of DEN's O&D traffic in spite of a metro area that was nearly 150% larger as of 2000. Average fares at DEN are considerably lower than those at PHL (which partially explains the lower O&D at PHL). DEN has two hubs as mentioned above, while PHL has only one network hub and a relatively limited (~ 25 daily departures) LCC presence. PHL offers a nearly unique opportunity (along with BWI and possibly PIT) for WN to expand its service to smaller cities in the East; WN already serves most of the cities out West which can support 10 or more daily 737 round-trips (aside from COS, DEN, SFO, and maybe FAT).

I suppose that PIT could be the new city if US does go ahead and reduce service there as they've threatened. Most of US's gates in Concourses A & B at PIT are now on month-to-month leases (they only signed long-term leases for ten after rejecting the old leases), so clearly the Allegheny County Airport Authority has at least 40 gates at PIT which could be made available to WN. Per-passenger costs at PIT are currently comparable to or slightly higher than those at PHL; if the county does manage to reduce airport costs, that would make PIT even more attractive to WN in light of a hypothetical reduction in service by US.

Next year come on it's more like Nov of this year will be PIT...3 mdw, 4 bwi, 4 phl,1 phx,1 las and 1 mco......LGB GUy

Please don't forget about PIT need to more flight to FLL, TPA, MHT, PVD, LAX, OAK & MSY.

I would like to see them try ATL. But I guess that would be Aviation Suicide for WN. It would be fun however to see WN give DL, AirTran, and Song a run for thier money and pax's.