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iowaman
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Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 6:43 am

Hey Guys,

Midway's longest runway (6522 X 150 Ft.) seems really short for WN 's fully loaded 737's and ATA's 738's & 757's to take off to places such as PHX, LAS, etc. Wouldn't that be a little short for landing/ taking off esp. in the summer?
I guess they would have to hold the brakes until the engines area at full thrust when taking off, and use speedbrakes, full autobrakes, and full reverse thrust when landing?? Doesn't it seem a little dangerous for takeoffs and landings???
 
Continental
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 6:48 am

They do hold the brakes for a while. I think it's quite dangerous as a 753 did go off the runway and into a fence last year. I flew a daytrip on Northwest to MDW, we flew in on an A320, and we needed a ton of reverse thrust and braking to slow us down. I left later that day in a 757 which was nearly fully loaded, we pulled onto the runway, applied a lot of thrust, held the brakes for a few seconds, then let her go! We rotated with plenty of space, it was one hell of a takeoff!
 
wingsofman72
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 6:59 am

Operationally and legally this has to be OK, and with the 737NG /757s and Airbus equipment used now it is usually not a problem.
Unless there are multiple problems on takeoff there should never be an issue as long as the crew follows the posted speeds and procedures.

I'm sure there must be some load restrictions on takeoffs on hot days however (only on the 737-800s, or 757-300s).

It's a lot better than when it was 727-200s or even any long DC9-30 flight in the past.

It is interesting and exciting to watch or be on, but really not dangerous at all, US carriers have highly automated weight/balance systems that cannot be changed by the user, so there should never be a problem.
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 7:00 am

WOW! Do they use 13L/31R (5141 X 150) simutaneously with 13C/31C? That's really short for 738's and 757's. If so is that restricted for smaller planes? I know 13R/31L (3859 X 60) would be to short, and not wide enough for WN or ATA.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 7:04 am

>>> Doesn't it seem a little dangerous for takeoffs and landings???

"Dangerous" is one of those words that are emotional in nature, not to mention highly subjective...

That said, shorter runways do indeed necessitate performance penalties, especially as the temperature goes up in the summertime. Quite simply, it is the compliance with those performance penalties that keeps operations from becoming "dangerous". That's why, in the summer, some flight can't make it non-stop to their long-haul destinations, and have to "fuel-stop" at some shorter intermediate point.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 7:38 am

"WOW! Do they use 13L/31R (5141 X 150) simutaneously with 13C/31C? That's really short for 738's and 757's."

They don't have to use it for the commercial stuff... just the GA.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 8:02 am

I know they don't HAVE to use 13L/31R but do they for some commercial flights? Again, that would be really short. That's gotta be neat to see departures and arrivals on that runway!
Thanks for the info. guys!
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 8:04 am

SNA's runway is even shorter and AA has 757 service to JFK from there. If it was dangerous, do you think it would still be open?
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 8:10 am

Probibly not, but im sure they use every inch of runway at SNA and at MDW.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 8:16 am

CRW has a runway of 6,300ft. and we get critisizim for being unsafe, with too short of a runway.......and we never get anything bigger than the occasional 757
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 8:26 am

If CRW gets criticized im sure SNA must because as Flying Bronco said AA has to get it's 757 all the way to JFK on a 5700 Ft. Runway. CRW Is slighty at a higher altitude and its runway is in poor condition according to the FAA so they both are pretty short for 757's
 
ALSF 2
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 9:12 am

Every commercial aircraft has to do a Runway Analysis for the specific runway they are using based on their load, temp, etc... before takeoff.

Do you really think the FAA would allow millions of people to travel into and out an airport that they didn't deem safe? Also, 31C/13C and 4R/22L are the only two runway that can handle the commercial airlines.

Cheers!!
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 9:22 am

Do you really think the FAA would allow millions of people to travel into and out an airport that they didn't deem safe? Also, 31C/13C and 4R/22L are the only two runway that can handle the commercial airlines.


They allow tons of CRJ's into ORD delaying the whole system............. can't get much worse then that........... Angry
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 9:31 am

SNA's runway is even shorter and AA has 757 service to JFK from there. If it was dangerous, do you think it would still be open?

Thats not all. SNA has had FEDEX A300's in the past. They are regularly served by an A310 from MEM now though. 5700ft runway.


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[Edited 2004-05-20 02:32:02]
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 9:42 am

And I thought we were never gonna make it off the ground on SY at MSP on 30L this Spring.  Insane  Yeah sure

LOL
 
access-air
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 11:24 am

I once departed out of Midway ina fully loaded (with passengers) ATA B727-200. And we werent even using the longest runway...
We took off on runway 22L and thats only 6100 feet long. The pilot just stopped at the end and spooled up the engines and held the brakes ..then when the engines were singing....he let her go and we sling shotted down the runway and up we went....It can be done....
One othr thing with regards to SNA....take into consideration the field elevation also can play a part in aircraft performance...
However with the thrust to weight ratio on all these newer 757s and 737s they dont have much to worry about at Midway. Ive wathced the "old Midway Airlines" use up almost the entire length of the runways with their DC9-30s back in the day.....
At one time not more than 10 years ago, the 727 was King at Midway with Northwest, KIWI International, ATA. ALong with that you had nothing but DC910/30/50 of different carriers and 737-100/200 as well....with such airlines as Northwest, Continental, Valujet.
Midway is one of my favourite airports and I find it fun to fly into and out of.
So no, I dont think that Midway has too many weight restrictions with todays aircraft...Im sure they will do just fine..

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
mlsrar
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 11:34 am

Kiwi...I forgot about Kiwi. Blast from the past.

MDW is a fun journey, I just don't like gambling on what's missing from my car when I pick it back up...nor the ride down Cicero Ave.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 12:09 pm

I take it MDW is not in a good part of town? (never been there) I know DET isn't either.
 
CcrlR
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 12:21 pm

I take it MDW is not in a good part of town? (never been there) I know DET isn't either.

Well they have a great stuffed pizza restaurant now, a Maxwell Street 24 hour food place(plus a Burger King), and the houses are good. Plus some condos being built, and if you want to go to WalMart(all of you who wanted one in the City of Chicago)-we have one around!
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
planespotting
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 1:23 pm

Giordano's pizza within 5 blocks on the approach end of 31C. Best place to eat pizza and watch airplanes land in the entire country. hands down.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
7e72004
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 9:54 pm

It is fun landing with a fully loaded 757 at MDW...you almost need pillows on the seat in front when your head lurches forward  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
doninfc
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 11:10 pm

Back when I worked in the industry, I was trying to non-rev on Midway Airlines from MDW to MSY and got bumped 3 times in a row due to weight restrictions. All three DC9 flights had plenty of empty seats but apparently they were carrying a lot of cargo. In one instance I was already buckled in my seat when I was asked to deplane. Bummer.

As much as I enjoyed my flight benefits when I had them, I'm now happy to pay for a confirmed seat. But that's a topic for another thread...
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 11:22 pm

The old KAUS (Robert Meuller) has a 7000x150 ft runway that a DC-10 would cycle through daily. Austin in the summer is very hot needless to say.

I used to spend my lunch hour sitting on the tailgate watching this massive bird fly over....in the summer it was no more than 40ft over my head. Kinda like TNCM without all the babes :p

Now all that is gone, sadly.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Thu May 20, 2004 11:23 pm

I watched plenty of T/Os and landings from TZ's hanger. The 757-300 is off the ground in less runway than the 737-800 from what I saw. It was awesome standing there watching. There are weight restrictions and we frequently have to count passengers. I have never seen paying customers left behind. After the crash at CLT, the SAABs have 34 seats, but only allowed 32 customers. I do think that is at all airports though. Certainly it has no problems at MDW.

M
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 1:52 am

That's gotta be neat to see 738's take off from there!  Big thumbs up
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 2:46 am

Drive down Cicero avenue? Some of you have serious issues unless it's going north out of the airport. If it's south, you're pretty much going into Burbank then Worth, not that big of a deal. Take it from someone who lives near those areas, albeit in the boardwalk of the south subs.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
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September11
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 2:57 am

When I landed in MDW for the first time, it reminded me of DCA's runway.
Airliners.net of the Future
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 3:34 am

Nothing is going to happen between MDW and the Stevenson if you drive North on Cicero. Heck, there's even a Starbucks at 47th (?) street. Big Brother's blue light cameras are watching, and on a serious note the CPD knows that if travellers are getting carjacked/shot at/anything else on their way to or from MDW, city hall is going to be on their ass.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
iowaman
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 3:52 am




LOL @ Cubsrule
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 6:01 am

The area around Midway is just fine. In fact, it's one of the more stable areas in Chicago (it hasn't gone through NEARLY as much white flight as the rest of the south and west sides.) They're all a mix of Polish/Eastern European and Hispanic residents. If you drive through the neighborhoods themselves, you'll see that the houses are well cared for, freshly painted, and well-landscaped. I'd sooner live in the Midway area than some of the 'cool' areas of Chicago (Old Town, Wrigleyville, Ravenswood, etc.)

Lots of civil servants (who are bound by residency requirements to live in Chicago city limits if they want to keep their jobs) live around Midway - police, firefighters, etc. I definitely find those areas - particularly the Garfield Ridge neighborhood to the west of the airport - to be some of the most interesting in Chicago.
 
ejMDWfan
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 2:01 pm

Midway is not in a bad area at all. Just because it is on the southside doesn't mean that we're all a bunch of thieves. If you don't care for the ride down Cicero...exit on Pulaski or Central or even Harlem or First Ave. Take those to 55th or 63rd St and cut over. Or if your coming from downtown take Archer Ave. Although the surrounding suburbs are not Oak Brook or Highland Park...they are safe with middle to upper middle class working people. My grandparents lived less then three blocks from the airport and I always felt safe standing in front of the house watching planes. I was never stabbed or shot. I hate the connotation that the southside is a bad area. Look at Wrigleyville, two weeks ago someone got shot right in front of the so called "friendly confines" two hours after a Cubs game.

Anyways in regards to the short runways I landed on 22L in a ATA 757 and we hardly used half of the runway to stop and taxi off. And thats a fun approach heading north and making that quick left turn to line up. It's a fun place to fly in and out of. I used to live under the approach to 4R five miles out and loved being outside watching everything overhead. My favorite airport!!!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 2:11 pm

I've driven Archer a couple of times from Downtown. It's a nice drive and a nice break from the madness that is the Stevenson. The Orange Line is a good alternative, too. Please don't mistake the comments about Cicero (or my screename) for some sort of anti-South Side bias. The fact that South Siders cheer for the wrong baseball team doesn't make them a bunch of criminals.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
7574EVER
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Fri May 21, 2004 2:18 pm

. I think it's quite dangerous as a 753 did go off the runway and into a fence last year. - Continental

While this is true, to the best of my memory it was pilot error that caused this. The pilot let the plane float a long distance before touching down and executed poor judgment for not initiating a go-around. It's perfectly safe if the aircraft lands where it's supposed to land not 1000 feet after and if it's not assured...go around! Lives are worth much more than jet fuel.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Mon May 31, 2004 11:46 am

Kcrw had a runway pavement last year? its nice and smoothe  Smile $
 
7e72004
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:49 pm

I figured that instead of starting a "new" thread i would just drop this on in this one....I just looked at the MDW live camera and there is a Northwest DC-9 plane on the A concourse...did they move northwest to A and not B now?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:17 am

7E7- As far as I know, NW is still Concourse B, using B1 and B2. You'll see overflow for several airlines at Concourse B occasionally, and if the NW flight was a charter requiring customs, they would have to park it at a low A gate.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CactusA319
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:26 am


For the longer flights, you can be sure there would be somewhat of a weight restriction, even on the 738's and 753's. When I worked at America West, we would occasionally have a slight weight restriction on the A319 to LAS when the weather was really warm. But this wasn't a regular occurence. I'm sure that ATA might have weight restrictions on their west coast runs but it probably isn't a regular occurence either, since the 738 and 753 have a real thrust/weight ratio so they can easily take-off and land out of MDW no problem. Back when ATA ran 727-200's out of MDW, there were a few times when the flights would have to make a fuel stop (Lincoln, NE for example) in order to make it legal to takeoff.

As for which runways are used for commercial a/c ops, it's only 31C/13C and 4R/22L. The other runways are strictly reserved for GA.

MDW is not in a bad neighborhood at all. I lived about a mile east of the airport in the Westlawn neighborhood, and it was probably one of the most underated places to live in the city. Wide streets, nice affordable houses, plenty of parking. One of the best places I've lived in while in Chicago (and I've moved around the city and burbs quite a bit  Wink/being sarcastic ). The area a few miles to the north of the airport is a bit shady but not exactly the ghetto. And you can leave your car in long-term without having to worry. I've done it in the past with no problem.

 
7Seas
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:56 am

cubsrule,

NWA just moved from B to A. I left on Wed and they were full bore out of B1 and B2. When I got back Friday night those two gates were cleared out. Seats, counters everything. I suspect SWA has moved into them by now as that was the plan from the start of the reconstruction.

7seas (Go Sox!)
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:01 am

i was noticing that on the B gates there were Southwest signs on the jetbridge. Isn't US in the B concourse? And why did they create a concourse with just 3 gates as is the case in concourse C?? *lol*
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14835
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:24 am

Thanks 7seas. I figured that my trip through MDW 2 weeks ago was recent enough to justify a comment. Apparently not... As for US, they continue to hop around Concourse A- A1 seems to be the gate of choice but not every day... They only have 15 CRJ flights per week, so there is no need for them to have their own gate. I think C is as small as it is due to space restrictions. It really isn't that far from the tails of the planes parked there to 4R/22L.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CactusA319
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RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:53 am

I'm surprised that this thread about MDW's short runways hasn't elicited a question about whether ATA has ever flown the L1011 there or the response from someone who swears they've actually seen that beast land at MDW. LOL  Laugh out loud It is always seems to come up whenever MDW's runways are discussed on this site.

 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:59 am

Now..that would be a SIGHT! An L1011 at MDW!!!  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:12 am

Now there is a NW A320 at the A concourse and a Delta wavy gravy plane on the B concourse...
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:25 am

I was hoping to find the answer here, about the gate assignments at MDW. I was looking at the webcam the other too and I saw that Northwest and Fronteir are using concourse A. Then I looked at the terminal info to see where each airline is:

Concourse A:
ATA, ATA Connection/Chicago Express and US Airways.

Concourse B: AirTran, ATA, Northwest and Southwest.

Concourse C: American, CanJet, Comair, Continental, Delta and Fronteir.

I also saw that Delta is at the B gates. Are the airlines asking for different gate assignments or what?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14835
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:05 am

Mexicana- I wouldn't trust anything the CDOA website says. It always takes about 6 to 8 weeks to update it after a change.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:50 am

Looking at the MDW webcam at the moment, and today Delta is at concourse A.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:11 pm

Yea flew into MDW in ATA 738 a few weeks ago lots of fun. Landing and Taking off. While holding at 26R is it because of an ATC delay saw an NW DC-9-31 takeoff I thought it was going to over shoot maybe had 300-500 Feet of Runway left. Yea you can really hear those 757s go N1 100% from the outside takeoff.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:23 am

I have never experienced other than a routine takeoff from MDW, even in bad weather.

Sometimes landings at MDW can be interesting! Especially in heavy winds. I have been on at least 50 flights which have arrived at MDW. 95% have been utterly routine experiences. However, I do recall one instance in particular, aboard an AirTran 717 from ATL, landing on 22L in sustained winds of approx. 40 mph. It felt like we were riding in an out of control row boat. The aircraft finally came to a halting stop on the piano keys at the end, the brakes and thrust reversers were really screaming all the way down the strip. Everyone I could see looked terrified.

The very professional FA in the rear jump seat felt the need to loudly comment, "THAT WAS REALLY @#$ING SOMETHING, WASN'T IT?."

Kinda scary, but it hasn't prevented me from scheduling flights in and out of MDW since then.

[Edited 2004-06-08 20:28:24]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
CactusA319
Posts: 2822
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 1:51 am

RE: Short Runways At MDW

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:53 am

(snip)
However, I do recall one instance in particular, aboard an AirTran 717 from ATL, landing on 22L in sustained winds of approx. 40 mph.

(snip)

The very professional FA in the rear jump seat felt the need to loudly comment, "THAT WAS REALLY @#$ING SOMETHING, WASN'T IT?."

That might have been TravATL  Laugh out loud


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