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SNATH
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7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:08 am

Link here:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q2/nr_040526g.html

Enjoy.

The windtunnel model does look like the renderings, minus the tail that looks more conventional.
And, is it me or does the wing really looks thinner?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
united
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:14 am

I think it looks great! Go boeing!

You're right about the tail. From that picture, I'd call it a 767-400/777-200 crossbreed!
The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of Delta Air Lines.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:14 am

She looks like a beautiful bird! I really hope Boeing can make this project count. I feel they'll need all the "gee whiz" interior features they mentioned when it was announced in order to compete. Hope there're more new models on the horizon!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
Okie
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:30 am

Looks beautiful.
The wing does not look to have a full winglet but somewhat of a blended upturned tip.

Okie
 
SNATH
Topic Author
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:43 am

The wing does not look to have a full winglet but somewhat of a blended upturned tip.

It teminds me of the concept Dornier proposed for the 728. They called them shark-something
(shark fins?) and they were essentially blended upturned tips.

EDIT: in fact a quick WWW search produced the following related document:

http://lu.fme.vutbr.cz/icas2002/PAPERS/122.PDF

Tony

[Edited 2004-05-27 00:50:58]
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:51 am

Gorgeous! Wonder if the "porpoise tail" will be a part of the final design or if it was deleted for the sake of the wind-tunnel mockup?
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
transswede
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:51 am

It looks like a 777-200LR with a slightly sharper nose.
 
AvObserver
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 7:59 am

It's now looking more like the illustrations we've seen from Boeing and a bit less than the 767-400-ish model we saw in earlier wind-tunnel evaluations; the 'shark-tail' is becoming evident. This model has a lot more credibility, also, than the earlier one, now that the program has been launched; it's not merely a design concept undergoing evaluation. As the illustrations indicate, it will be a beautiful airplane that, like the 747 and the A380, will be noticed by more folks than just us 'airplane geeks'.
 
transswede
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 9:40 am

Just curious - how the heck do you see a "shark-tail"? It looks like a plain "straight" 777 tail to me...

 
AvObserver
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 9:55 am

TransSwede, thought I saw a hint of a curve in it but you're probably right; it might've been just the angle, a bit hard to see it's actual shape. Maybe I need glasses.  Laugh out loud They've likely a way to go before they get to the final configuration model so expect more changes. I'm sure the nose is sleeker than the earlier model and the raked tips are twisting up a bit, not flat as before.
 
757KSLC
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 10:12 am

NOOO! The "shark tail" was my favorite part of the 7E7 design!  Crying
Is this going to be a permanent change?



[Edited 2004-05-27 03:16:54]
 
Mir
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 10:37 am

Have they done away with the horizontal stabilizers, or are they just not put on yet? I'm guessing the latter, but it would be really interesting if they took them out.

Other than that, looks great. I for one am happy about the loss of the shark tail.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N757ST
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 11:10 am

They are not installed yet, there would have to be MAJOR changes in that aircraft to allow it to fly without a horizontal stabilizer.
 
AA737-823
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 11:16 am

I would say that that particular tail cannot be the final design, as it is missing the horizontal stabilizer. I doubt that the computers will be THAT sophisticated, as to do without the stabilizer!

I expect the shark tail to stay.

R
 
Okie
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 11:17 am

Thanks SNATH for the link.

With the "shark designation" for the wing tip design, most likely that is where the artist conception with the tail came from.
Possibly an effort to throw off the competition, you notice that there is considerable shading in the concept to accent the shark tail and not much attention directed to the wing tip.

Dennis Miller on CNBC last night
"Boeing has announced that the new 7E7 is so technologically advanced that it can lose your luggage before you pack it" good laugh

Okie
 
Sinlock
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 2:37 pm

You can see that the model has seen a lot to time in the tunnel.
The areas where the paint is worn away is where the particle spicket has been placed. The particles are slightly larger than the size of talc powder and etch away the paint over time.

You can also see that the V-Stab has been tested, I'd guess to get a baseline for the Shark Fin layout. (Although it's most likely also in testing)
 
lehpron
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 3:19 pm

Sad to see that Boeing just could'nt let go of the traditional Vfin. This old-school mentality is gonna bit them in the ass someday. Other than the nose, the damn thing doesn't look any different than anything else in the sky, and they are touting this to the public as something new?? That Trent 1000 better perform as planned, or they're all going under.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
nosedive
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 4:58 pm

I'm happy to see the 7e7 come along, and I hope that the Shark-fin will be added to later wind-tunnel tests. Though I did look around Boeing.com and could not find any other pics of the current 7e7 test model..... The one picture is awesome, yet it is hard to see the wing shape and relative size of the fuselage from that angle....
 
Navion
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 5:25 pm

Lephron, You apparently have missed the information on the revolutionary systems changes in the 7E7 that will contribute most heavily to the efficiency gains. Going bleedless changes much more than initially meets the eye. Bleedless operation removes a lot of weight and inefficiency. There is a lot of "plumbing" that doesn't have to be included in the aircraft as well as more efficient electrically based power sources resulting in the "next level" of efficiency in power usage and gain. Also, there are myriad other improvements in flight control and management which further contributes to efficiency. ANA is a smart airline and for them to pony up 50 orders up front shows the technical prowess of the 7E7 design. Heck, Airbus' A380 has only racked up about 130 orders in the past 4 years while the 7E7 could surpass that in 7 months. No disrespect to the A380 which fills a valuable niche, it just shows Boeing is onto something. Check out some of the info available on the 7E7 such as we have seen in Aviation Week & Space Technology. The outer aircraft design, which is much more conventional than the Blended Wing Body or the Sonic Cruiser, is what the airlines want. If they wanted those other more exotic designs, they would have shown more interest. You can't say Boeing hasn't been revolutionary in their prospective designs or their ideas for the 7E7. Airlines, which know a lot more than you and me about airframes, are showing real interest in the 7E7 so let's trust them that they know what they are doing.
 
mdsh00
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 5:52 pm

Maybe it's just me but it looks like the testing is focusing on just the front nose and wing areas. Maybe they will work on the tail after the more crucial parts are deemed acceptable.

Don't give up hope shark fin people!  Smile
 
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keesje
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 5:59 pm

About the tail, I think strength / production engineering was less happy with the shark like ideas then the PR department.

It was a cosmetic thing to set it apart from the start.

Approaching the preliminary design approval target date, rational kicks in.

Horizontal stabelizers where probably left out of this photo by Boeing on purpose, "to keep the legend alive" for now.




"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 6:04 pm

Maybe it's just me but it looks like the testing is focusing on just the front nose and wing areas. Maybe they will work on the tail after the more crucial parts are deemed acceptable.

Don't give up hope shark fin people!


I definitely agree. It does seem like they're maybe focusing on the nose and wing design at this early stage. The article only really mentions the wing design. I wouldn't give up on the Sharkliner yet..
 
squirrel83
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 6:05 pm

Good, I hope Boeing will really come thu with this . . Its a project that definitly has turned some heads.
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
Navion
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 6:09 pm

Actually folks, I've noticed many pictures over the past 30+ years with partial airframes in windtunnels where only certain sections or situations were tested without the full configuration. I wouldn't read anything into Boeing's photo of some windtunnel testing as many different configurations and levels of completion will be tested depending upon the goal of the individual test.
 
mdsh00
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 6:18 pm

"Actually folks, I've noticed many pictures over the past 30+ years with partial airframes in windtunnels where only certain sections or situations were tested without the full configuration."

I agree. To me it looks like they took a 767 fuselage model...replaced the nose and put on new wings. They must have so many possible designs. I really don't think this is the final design.
 
GT
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Thu May 27, 2004 6:35 pm

I think this is a cross with 767 and 777. The changes resume a little bit taller... Except if she will fly without the horizontal stabilizer.
A380 fever!!!
 
transswede
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 12:15 am

"NOOO! The "shark tail" was my favorite part of the 7E7 design!"

repeat after me: It was only an artists impression!

I can guarantee you that the final 7E7 configuration will be much more conventional that the early 7E7 artist impressions...
 
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airportugal310
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 12:35 am

Well isnt that just a kick in the nuts for those of us that actually thought the shark fin would look awesome! This plane does not have winglets does it?

Latah
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
caetravlr
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 1:17 am

Just another thought, and I could be way off. But if I am designing a revolutionary aircraft, and evaluating new designs for such critical components as wings and flight control surfaces, and I want to put out a press photo of wind tunnel testing very early on, I am NOT going to put one up that looks like what I am actually planning to go with. I am going to put up one of the designs that will likely be rejected. Not saying they did this, it just stands to reason to me that you would not put your best work out there for others to try and reverse engineer from a photo. If they have a revolutionary shape, it will be kept secret until the very last moment.

Just my 2 cents, I could be way off.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Guest

RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 2:24 am

Looks to me like one of several models they are willing to show the public. I'm sure the one they are closest to using is the one they aren't willing to show. Too much invested in the graphic representations all over the web to look like a 777 or 767.
 
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scbriml
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 2:45 am

Not saying they did this, it just stands to reason to me that you would not put your best work out there for others to try and reverse engineer from a photo. If they have a revolutionary shape, it will be kept secret until the very last moment.

In that case, why have the artist impressions showing exactly that? I'd be very surprised if the final 7E7 shape looks like the rendition in reply #10. Aerodynamics haven't progressed that much since the 777 was launched. If the 'standard' fin and 'screwdriver' tail work, then why change it? Apart from the cross between blended and raked wing-tips, the wing looks much more conventional as well.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
cancidas
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

i kinda wish that they kept the shark tail. that way, it looked unique. now it almost looks like every two-holer flying today, with a bombardier nose. will this a/c have winglets or raked wingtips? i think not every a/c is to have winglets, the raked wingtips are a very cool idea!

not to boeing: KEEP THE SHARK TAIL!

"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 3:01 am

I think that photo deserves a caption contest.

"Okay, now just act like you're calibrating something, we gotta put a photo out from those a.nutters to over-analyze..."
 
Areopagus
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RE: 7E7 Wind Tunnel Testing Refines Configuration

Fri May 28, 2004 4:40 am

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer has an article on 7E7 wind tunnel testing here, which includes the following:

Cogan said the nose of the 7E7 is pretty much fixed. But more design work is needed on the tail fin, he said.

The goal, he said, is to get as close as possible to the distinctive look that the aviation world now knows as the 7E7.


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