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nycfuturepilot
Topic Author
Posts: 773
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:50 am

Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:54 pm

I flew down to FLL on thursday and the pilot said that he was going to make use of the "plane's overwater certificaltion" and do some creative routing to get to fl. i assume that the "overwater certification" was ETOPS but I didnt think that that would be necessary for EWR-FLL. Is it?
Father, Son, HOYA spirit
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:01 pm

It is not necessary, but it is beneficial. If you look at a flight from IAH to MIA, youcould easily fly along the coat line of the gulf of mexico and avoid any relevent over water segments, but you could save a lot of time and fuel by cutting the corner so to speak, and flying as the crow flies and take a more direct over water routing.

J
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:11 pm

It might have to do with appropriate provisions for water landing in case of emergency (life rafts, etc.). I don't think EWR-FLL goes far enough out to need ETOPS.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
B6FA4ever
Posts: 753
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:49 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:32 pm

nope...Etops not needed. our flight paths from JFK/BOS to Florida do at times go over water. our planes are not ETOPS'd but we do have over-water flight equipment. so that allows us to fly further over water unlike southwest where they would have to fly along the coast. another good example was mentioned above for the IAH-MIA routing. our LGB-FLL flight goes over the gulf. but not too far off of land again cause of the etops issue.

what is it? you have to be within 30 minutes from land or something like that to not have to be ETOPS'd?

~B6FA4ever
 
modesto2
Posts: 2730
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2000 3:44 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:56 pm

As B6FA4ever said, JetBlue's A320s have overwater equipment. They are not ETOPS certified, but they have life rafts and other emergency equipment for a water ditching. I don't know the exact rule for non-ETOPS aircraft, but I think they need to be within 60 minutes of land. Can someone please verify this number? Often times, our aircraft will request over-water routes to bypass traffic jams with New York and Washington ARTCCs. This congestion may be a result of thunderstorms or other weather fronts building up along the eastern seaboard. Over-water routes allow our aircraft to fly far enough from land, so that they're no longer under the watch of New York or Washington Centers. These aircraft can communicate with ARINC on HF radios.

A good question, nycfuturepilot!
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:48 pm

Modesto2 has it right that overwater certified non ETOPS twin engine AC are allowed to fly no further than 60mins from the nearest airport.
The great circle mapper shows that a direct route from EWR-FLL is well within this 60min radius.
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=ewr-fll%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=outline&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=60

Dl757md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:51 am

ETOPS certification and over-water certification, are in essence differing concepts... both of which can be earned without the acquisition of the other.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
timz
Posts: 6580
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:15 am

Yeah, forget about ETOPS-- that has nothing to do with it. Years back OPNLguy explained about offshore limits:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/74115/




 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:23 am

Jeez, has it been 5 years since I wrote that?  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:13 am

Isn't this why Southwest routes from Texas to FL (specifically TPA) take route that flies them much closer to land than a direct routing. I believe that Southwest doesn't certify it flights for routes over water to keep costs low. Can anyone confirm?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:16 am

yeah, you're right
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
modesto2
Posts: 2730
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2000 3:44 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:00 am

Now I'm confused. Is it 60 minutes or 50nm? What's the rule? Thanks.
 
timz
Posts: 6580
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:05 am

There's ETOPS rules (60 minutes, etc) and liferaft rules (50 nm, etc). No connection between the two.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Etops Needed For EWR-FLL?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:23 am

AC that ARE NOT over water certified(liferafts and life jackets) can fly no further than 50NM from land.

AC that ARE overwater certified but NOT ETOPS can fly past 50NM from land but CAN NOT fly more than 60mins at single engine cruise speed from a suitable airport....land or water.

AC that are ETOPS, are of cousre over water certified, and can fly up to the their ETOPS cert. (120mins,180mins,etc.) away from a suitable airport......land or water.

To clarify ETOPS is not over water but rather it is distance from a suitable airport.

Dl757md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!

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