B767-400ER

asianguy767 · Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:29 pm

Jus curious as to how well the B767-400ER is performing for CO and DL and I wonder how it is compared to the A330-200'lite'?

airportugal310 · Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:33 pm

1) I dont even think the A330-200 lite even exists yet.

2) I see the DL 764 alot in Boston. Flies down to Atlanta. Where else does it fly?

Smile

fjnovak1 · Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:55 pm

Delta uses the 764ER domestically for the most part, although I believe that it is making trips to Latin America nowadays....domestically it can be found on routes like ATL-FLL, ATL-BOS, ATL-MCO, ATL-LAS, ATL-DFW, ATL-LAX, ATL-SFO, ATL-LGA, and others...but mostly out of the ATL hub...

komododx · Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:00 am

Doesn't DL send it every once in a while to JAX too?

KdX in TLH

northstardc4m · Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:03 am

DL's 764s are high density domestic birds, mostly flying ATL-Florida (CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO, TPA, FLL...) and connecting to major centers. They also fly to HNL, but that i believe is the longest flight they do operate. They were primarily a Tristar replacement.

CO's 764s range trans-atlantic from EWR mostly, but have also served in Micronesia and to Hawaii. With the 777s, they replaced most of the trans-atlantic DC-10s. I've often wondered about CO's choice of the 764, it seems the 763ER would of been a better option for them, but who am I to know.

compared to the specs for the A330-200Lite it fails to impress. The A332L can carry more cargo (lower lobe), has more range, more commonality with the other A32X/330/340 members and its not that much less expensive list.

The 767-200 and -300 are excellent aircraft, but i think Boeing missed the boat on the -400 by doing what British manufacturers were forced to do for many years, build them to the specifications of 1 or 2 airlines. The 764 only ever had 3 airlines order it, Delta, Continental and Kenya, Kenya later converted its order to other types. Delta seems happy with the 767-400, Continental i don't know what their opinion is but operationally seems to be well used. However i think that those 2 will be the only customers for the 764 ever.

solnabo · Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:31 am

I wonder how long the 767-program will be in production!
Just a question.....no offence, please Smile/happy/getting dizzy

*have to write that in every topic these days*

Mike//SE Big thumbs up

garnetpalmetto · Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:41 am

I wonder how long the 767-program will be in production!

Long enough to crank out the KC-767s once the order comes through and to build the E-10s.

starrion · Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:42 am

The 767 is almost entirely dependant on whether or not the tanker deal goes through.

If the 767 becomes the de-facto replacement for all the 707-based military aircraft such as the tankers, radar aircraft and the like, then you could see up to a thousand more 767 frames produced. If not then not.

The airlines only have eyes for the 7E7

-Al

DeltaGuy · Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:51 am

Delta seems to use it's 400ER's pretty heavily in the domestic scene, I do wish they'd operate them T/O more.

Even if the 330 is better, Boeing knew it had a solid market with Delta and CO, for the reasons described above....and the fact that they'll want to keep fleet commonality, regardless of whether another a/c is better.

Love the 764's, can't wait to fly em someday Big grin

DeltaGuy

ConcordeBoy · Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:40 am

and the fact that they'll want to keep fleet commonality, regardless of whether another a/c is better

In this case, yes... though typically the exact inverse proves correct.

artsyman · Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:49 am

From a passenger perspective, the 764 is a lovely plane to fly on. I constantly hear nice comments from passengers about the 764.

J

STT757 · Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:02 am

If the tanker deal with the US Air Force goes through the 767 line will be operational for quite a long time to come, 15 more years perhaps. The US Air Force has approximately 550 KC-135s based on the aging 707 airframe that need replacement, so the potential order for KC-767s to replace the KC-135s is in the range of "several" hundred.

That does not include potential foreign sales.

Also the US Air Force is developing the EA-10 based on the 767-400, it will eventually replace the Joint Star and Rivet Joint aircraft which are also based on the 707. The Air Force has already ordered one or two 767-400s for conversion as test beds, the eventual order would be in the neighborhood of 37 767-400s.

leelaw · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:27 am

DL and CO are pleased with performance of the 764 and the commonality with the other 757/767 series in their fleets. IMO the 764 was born more out of the "exclusive supplier" relationships they had with DL and CO than anything else. Boeing also felt they had a shot at selling some to the other big six according to press accounts at the time of launch because they all operated large 757/767 fleets (no 767s at NWA) and the carriers were emphasizing increased capapcity and fleet commonality. Remember, had DL replaced the TriStars with 764s, one for one, that would have been 50+ copies instead of the 21 that have been delivered to date. Like the 753, the post 911 industry downturn killed this niche program's sales too. Additional commercial orders seem unlikely with the advent of the 7e7. Boeing will probably not discontinue the 767 until the fate of the military versions is sorted out in order to defer the associated writeoffs as long as possible.

NightFlier · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:28 am

I was wondering if any body knew if the 767-400 is fly by wire?

leelaw · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:34 am

The 764 is not fly by wire, only major change to design other than fuselage stretch is the "raked" wing tip, similar to modified 773ER wing.

gigneil · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:35 am

It is not fly by wire. Other than the glass cockpit and raked wingtip, its fully common with the 767 family.

N

NightFlier · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:41 am

Thank you I have been pondering that question for a while. I wonder why Boeing doesnot make that airplane fly by wire too. But it is still a good airplane. Big thumbs up

NF

ConcordeBoy · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:55 am

only major change to design other than fuselage stretch is the "raked" wing tip

That, and the 777's cockpit.

DfwRevolution · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:58 am

I wonder why Boeing doesnot make that airplane fly by wire too

It requires a huge amount of design work to convert a conventional aircraft to fly-by-wire if the aircraft is not designed with FBW from the get-go. The improvement in weight, ect. does not at all jusify the cost of converting an existing aircraft into FBW. Boeing did not implement FBW into the 737NG, though the 777 does have it.

Sammyhostie · Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:58 am

Guys,

The CO 764 also comes into LGW, I see it there! So not just internal/domestic routes.

garnetpalmetto · Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:04 am

One nit to pick - Also the US Air Force is developing the EA-10

The aircraft in discussion is the E-10, not the EA-10. An EA-10 would be a modified A-10 Thunderbolt II.

Jaxs170 · Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:25 am

I had heard rumors that Delta has plans to move the 764 onto international routes in the future. I know they are flying it to LIM now, are there anymore cities on the horizon, perhaps lower yield destinations where they could get anyway with not have BizE? Also, any plans to add PTVs (ever)?

Does anyone know when the projected time frame for the E-10 to come online is?

phollingsworth · Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:48 am

The 764 is not fly by wire, only major change to design other than fuselage stretch is the "raked" wing tip, similar to modified 773ER wing.

Not entirely true. The entire 767 family has fly-by-wire spoilers, which are primary flight controls. Also the 767-400 has the 777 windows, which are a major structural change and save a fair bit of weight.

leelaw · Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:57 am

Phollingsworth: Why just FBW spoilers for the 767 series. Is this true for other Boeing aircraft (737NG, 744, 757). What is your opinion of the overall 764 design?

ConcordeBoy · Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:13 am

are there anymore cities on the horizon, perhaps lower yield destinations where they could get anyway with not have BizE?

What int'l route dictates the largest-capacity aircraft in their fleet... that they don't already fly/codeshare to?

dl757md · Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:17 am

Other than the glass cockpit and raked wingtip, its fully common with the 767 family.

Also the main gear are different. The struts, wheels, and brakes are the same as the 777 except with two axle trucks.

The engines are different. Dl's 767-200/300 fleet has a combo of GE CF6-80C2B6, CF6-80C2F, andCF6-80A2, and PW4060. Dl's 767-400ERs have GE CF6-80C2B8F engines.

The 777 windows as Phollingsworth said.

Anybody think of any others?

Dl757md

ultrapig · Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:39 am

What is the capacity and range of the 767-400/

I know its would take juggling but does an airline like Delta with most international flights from its hub ever simply chjange the aircraft on a daily basis based on the load--ie switch from 300 to 400 or 200?

I know this is complciated because one must figure the rutrn flight but does it happen

ConcordeBoy · Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:49 am

What is the capacity and range of the 767-400

http://www.delta.com/travel/plan/aircraft_types/b-767-400r/index.jsp

an airline like Delta with most international flights from its hub ever simply chjange the aircraft on a daily basis based on the load

Yep. Quite a few airlines do that.

ACTUALLY, THE WINGSPAN LOOKS SIMILAR TO THE A330.

Actually, among the reasons the 764ER suffers; is because DL wanted it to fit into L10 gates instead of gates for 777s/747s

dl757md · Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:05 am

What is the capacity and range of the 767-400?

MGTW 451,000lbs
MTOGW 450,000lbs
MLW 350,000lbs
MZFW 330,000lbs
OEW 236,000lbs
usable fuel 161,790lbs

Range 5,510NM

does an airline like Delta with most international flights from its hub ever simply chjange the aircraft on a daily basis based on the load--ie switch from 300 to 400 or 200?

On a daily basis...NO.
Occasionally........YES, but only domestic and only if a LOT of factors support it. MAYBE 67-300ER ETOPS for 777 INTL but I don't know if they ever have.

Dl757md

garnetpalmetto · Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:54 am

A bit of topic, but pbogdos - mind losing the caps? You may be new to the whole message board/internet forum thing, but typing in all capitals is considered extremely rude.

As for the E-10 issue, last I checked, the USAF was looking at FY 2007 to begin procurement of the initial order of E-10s.

flybynight · Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:12 am

PTV's in the DL's or CO's 764's, through-out the cabin?

artsyman · Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:19 am

PTV's in the DL's or CO's 764's, through-out the cabin?
****

Continental has them all through the cabin, Delta does not

J

dalfannyc · Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:39 pm

If the b764 and a330 are similar, how come LGA will let the 764 land there and not the 330?

garnetpalmetto · Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:13 pm

If the b764 and a330 are similar, how come LGA will let the 764 land there and not the 330?

The range limit, mayhap? Are there airlines operating within LaGuardia's range limit that operate the A330?

ha763 · Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:10 pm

If the b764 and a330 are similar, how come LGA will let the 764 land there and not the 330?

It is the wingspan and weight that limits the type of aircraft operating into LGA. Remember the runway extensions were built on L-shaped, pile-supported concrete structures. Even the 767-400 needed a special variance to operate into LGA.

[Edited 2004-06-15 09:15:11]

EIDW · Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:27 pm

I flew on one yesterday from EWR-DUB. Very nice aircraft, PTVs on each seat, 777-style cabin which made it feel very roomy. Smooth flight as well, though I was asleep for most of it which is a good sign Smile/happy/getting dizzy

.

With regards to the number of PAX, I was surprised to be almost bumped due to the high load and overbooking. Considering that there was a 757 flight at the same time to SNN, which was also full, it would appear that CO are doing good business from EWR to Ireland this summer.

EIDW.

pbogdos · Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:01 pm

actually, the A330 probably could land at LGA, since for years LGA was a DC10 and L1011 for AA, DL,TW. DC10=AA,UA; and L1011=DL,TW.

phollingsworth · Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:06 pm

Phollingsworth: Why just FBW spoilers for the 767 series. Is this true for other Boeing aircraft (737NG, 744, 757). What is your opinion of the overall 764 design?

While I don't know the exact reason why, I can make a few educated guesses.

1. Up to the 777 it was the only Boeing A/C with primary flight control FBW.

2. As to why the spoilers are FBW it is probably to save weight and complexity in a relatively complex control system, where the panels used and the deflections change a fair amount over the operating envelope. Remember that the 767 was designed during the 1970's fuel crises. Saving fuel was a primary driver, hence the 2-3-2 cross-section.

3. As to why the 757 isn't FBW, remember the 757 is a completely different aircraft from the 767, from a structural and mechanical point of view. They were designed by different groups, with the common type-rating a later add on. The differences between the two airplanes always drove me nuts.

As for the 767-400, I think it is a pretty good aircraft. It is basically a drop in replacement for the L1011-1/200/250 and the DC-10-10. Something that the 772, A333, and the A332 are not. The program was driven by Delta's instance that they wouldn't buy a 777 to replace the L1011 as the 772 is significantly larger. DL wouldn't go Airbus at the time given the bad blood that stemmed from the return of the A310-300 leases. The 764 holds the same number of people as the L1011, has almost the same wing-span, and will fly anywhere that the L1011-1/250s would. This is critical due to gate spacing in ATL and other airports. There are 4 gates which DL controls in ATL that can handle the A330/340s, MD-11, and 777. The gates on Concourse E can handle these A/C, but DL pays for each use.

All in all the 764 is a niche A/C, had Boeing gone through with the true ER version, Kenyan(?) was the only customer at the time of the economic downturn and the Sonic Cruiser start-up. The A/C may have gotten more orders (incidentally, the aircraft would have used the A380 class powerplants).

Mir · Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:32 am

If the b764 and a330 are similar, how come LGA will let the 764 land there and not the 330?

Because LGA has a wingspan limit of 175ft, presumably because of taxiway and gate spacing. The 764's is 170ft, according to the link ConcordeBoy posted above. The A330's is somewhere close to 200ft, so it's not allowed. That's also a big reason why the 764 has a much shorter wingspan than the 330 - Delta required it to be able to get into LGA.

The DC-10s and L1011s had wingspans of about 150-160ft, so they were fine. Eastern flew their A300s to LGA once upon a time I believe.

Also (and I may be totally wrong on this one, so if I am please correct me), the 332 isn't really designed to fly shorter distances. It's designed for trans-atlantic routes, or NYC to the west coast. LGA's perimeter rule would pretty much negate its strength.

-Mir

L1011aaron · Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:26 am

i travelled on a DL 764 from ATL to Orlando. Good seats and great leg room, lack of service though. Only glass of juice and pack of pretzels.

CO have been flying them to Mnchester for the winter but have now switched back to 777 for summer
( EWR - MAN - EWR )

JGPH1A · Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:29 am

When are DL going to replace their sad old crap 763's on trans-Atlantic routes with these new 764's ? The 763's are really tired now, and the IFE stinks - time to modernise !

L1011aaron · Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:37 am

I agree with you there.
up unitl early 2003 they had the 777's ona quite a few European routes and these have now all gone back to 763's. Even Gatwick doesn't see DL metal larger than 763. Paris and Frankfurt do though.

phollingsworth · Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:35 am

Some of the 763ERs are actually newer than some of the 764s. The problem is that neither of these two a/c types have the IFE that DL has on 772s. Additionally, the 764 has the 777 style interior (and seats minus the PTVs) which feels more modern. It would be nice if DL would upgrade the 763s to at least the standard of their 772s, but for now it does not make economic sense (there is also no reason to replace the aircraft), i.e., will not increase revenue or lower costs appreciably. Boeing does offer a modification to the 762/3 to put 764 style bins in; however, it is a major modification.

gigneil · Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:37 am

The 767-400 and the 777-200 both have the same IFE system, but on the 767-400 its only available in first class.

N

clickhappy · Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:44 am

Did you know the guy (Steve Ogg) who designed the 767-400 wingtips while @ Boeing now designs golf balls?

From seattlepi.com

Later, while working on Boeing's 767-400, which entered service last year with Delta and Continental airlines, Ogg hit on the idea of using 8-foot raked wingtips to improve the plane's performance. Engineers initially had considered simply increasing the jet's wingspan.

STT757 · Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:01 am

CO's 767-400 interiors are very nice, larger windows and PTVs at every seat.

Some CO 767-400 photos;

Interior economy:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Interior Business First;

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

The longest CO 767-400 routes are EWR-Honolulu and Houston IAH-AMS, nonstop.

leelaw · Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:15 am

Just as nice as the 777, with one less seat across. No other aircraft beats the 767 for passenger comfort on long-hauls flights in an economy seat with the exception of the SQ A345 economy section.

dalfannyc · Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:27 pm

I took the EWR-HNL and return trip on the CO 764. I had hoped for a 777, but it wans't a bad settle. It's a great aircraft.
JOSH

ConcordeBoy · Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:29 am

I had hoped for a 777

..um, why?

That's like hoping for a 764 on CLE-LGW.

EddieDude · Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:50 pm

LIM is the only Latin American destination of DL that gets 764ER service from Atlanta.

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