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Imonti
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Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:05 am

VIRGIN AMERICA ORDERS A320 FAMILY; NEW U.S. DOMESTIC AIRLINE TO TAKE DELIVERIES IN 2005
JUNE 15, 2004




Virgin America has announced a firm order for 18 Airbus aircraft, including 11 A319s and seven A320s. In addition, Virgin America will lease 15 A320 Family aircraft from GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS). All 33 aircraft will be used to launch and sustain service of Virgin America, a US-based, low-fare airline. First deliveries are scheduled for early 2005. All the aircraft, purchased and leased, will be powered by engines from CFM International, a GE company based in Ohio.


“This is the type of economic boost the U.S economy needs,” said Fred Reid, who is leading the formation of the future carrier. Reid joined Virgin in April from Delta Air Lines where he was President and Chief Operating Officer. “The wider bodies of the A320 Family, their modern design, lighting and climate control features will help us deliver that unique Virgin flair and outstanding customer experience travellers have come to expect from the Virgin brand.”


“The A320 Family has become the preferred choice of the new low-cost carriers,” said Noël Forgeard, Airbus President and Chief Executive Officer. “Offering our products’ comfort, economy and technology is a great way to attract passengers to a new airline.”


Airbus is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive family of airliners ranging in capacity from 100 to more than 500 seats with the latest state-of-the art technologies on the market. Airbus has delivered more than 3,500 aircraft to some 260 customers and operators world-wide, and boasts a healthy delivery backlog of some 1,400 aircraft, which, at current rates, represents close to five years of production. With an annual turnover of €19.2 billion in 2003, Airbus is a global company with design and manufacturing facilities in France, Germany, the UK, and Spain, as well as subsidiaries in the U.S., China and Japan. Headquartered in Toulouse, France, Airbus is an EADS joint Company with BAE Systems.


 
airxliban
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:29 am

I just hope that the Atlantic Order is Boeing.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:36 am

And here's more about the airline:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040615/dctu039_1.html
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
nzblue
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:40 am

This may not be the most important thing to worry about, but I'm awfully curious to see a color scheme for these birds.

-NZblue
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
 
miaskies
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:46 am

Sounds interesting! It would be nice to see their ...buses with the same paint scheme as the NWA ..buses (new scheme) or the Virgin Atlantic ..buses but instead of silver more of a blue tint but still with that same type of paint. Of course the red tail and white virgin logo...I think that would look cool...red white and blue!
Crosscheck Complete :)
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:02 am

Or you can go their website

http://www.virginamerica.com

Matt
 
ualonghaul
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:05 am

Great, another LCC in the US...........................

The bubble is bound to burst at some point.
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:18 am

You got to love the Virgin marketing. Very stylish site, and the logo looks cool.
The domain name of the site used to link to Virgin Atlantic's site.
And the LCC bubble will not burst. You have US Airways and Delta and NW and Continental (possibly) to go after the United and American way. Once all legacy carriers become LCC then we will wait for the bubble to burst, if at all. There could be some interesting mergers in the future - Who wants to bet on jetBlue and Virgin America  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Regards,
VS11
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:21 am

Options included upto 105 aircraft ! Is there room for another LCC ?
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
quickmover
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:21 am

How did they get around the Foreign ownership laws for airlines?
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:26 am

Once all legacy carriers become LCC then we will wait for the bubble to burst, if at all.

What? Legacy carriers are not going to become LCC. Perhaps they will take some operating strategies to heart and implement them, but saying they will become LCC's is ridiculous.

Although the idea sounds intriguing of this new airline and I think Virgin is a great brand, I think its a terrible idea for the current state of affairs in the US airline market. There's too much capacity in the system now. No need to add more.

They'll get around the foreign ownership by it being a US owned and operated airline and I believe Virgin in the UK will have a role that "steers" it in the direction Virgin wants it to go.
 
quickmover
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:29 am

"They'll get around the foreign ownership by it being a US owned and operated airline and I believe Virgin in the UK will have a role that "steers" it in the direction Virgin wants it to go. "


But who in the US would own them? I think the law has a maximum foreign investment limit of 40%. (I think).




 
toltommy
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:35 am

Investment groups, that's who. You can be sure that given the brand Branson has created, there's plenty of people lining up for a piece of the new carrier. Might be even better funded at startup than JetBlue.

The law allows Branson 25% of voting shares, up to 49% of all shares.
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gigneil
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:36 am

Don't you worry. EVERYONE wants to own a piece of a Virgin enterprise.

N
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:44 am

They will lease the Virgin brand, something that Sir Richard has done with other ventures e.g. Virgin Cola and a variety of other Virgin products. As to what percentage Sir Richard will own - I have no idea - most likely the maximum allowed, if he decides to be an owner but so far he has always wanted to have control over anything that has the Virgin brand on it. The only Virgin company that is not under his control is Virgin Music, which originated with him but he had to sell it.

As to the LCC market, it is only natural to assume that the legacy carriers will become LCC. Under competitive pressures, they will have to lower their costs until a new airline labor market equilibrium is achieved in the US domestic airline industry. At which point, there will be a wave of oursourcing of foreign pilots (if legaly possible) so that labor costs stay low.

VS11
 
trevd
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:01 am

No surprise on the A320, especially if they are trying to launch by early-2005. There just aren't any 737-700/-800's available compared with the oversupply of A320's in the market.

The earliest you can get a 737 from Boeing is mid-2006 and almost all the other lessors have their 737 inventory placed through 2005.

Curious though if some of these will be lease returns that GECAS will be pulling from other operators or if these will all be new.
 
starrion
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:06 am

"This is the type of economic boost the U.S economy needs"  Confused

A largely foreign owned airline ordering European-built aircraft is exactly the kind of economic action the US HAS been getting, which is why I know so many unemployed people right now.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
AA737-823
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:09 am

Well- forget them. Bransons originally said something along the lines of, "We are willing to fly in American, with American ownership, American cabin crew, American flight crew, and on American-built airplanes."
So much for that.
You all can say whatever you want to- my opinion is my own, having flown both types: I prefer the 737. Yeah, the A320 cabin may be seven feet wider, but I never seem to notice ANY additional room, and the number that matters- seat pitch- is set by the airline, not the manufacturer.

SO- Let's be sure and flood an already crippled market with another loco. Honestly, how can Virgin have a prayer against JetBlue, AirTran, Southwest, AmWest, et al? There is no room for them here. We already have too many airlines to risk more job losses!

Incidentally, I do think that this could be ANOTHER nail in US's coffin.

R
 
mt99
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:16 am

Well- forget them. Bransons originally said something along the lines of, "We are willing to fly in American, with American ownership, American cabin crew, American flight crew, and on American-built airplanes."
So much for that.


He did say that.. he also said: "... if foreing ownership laws are relaxed"
Step into my office, baby
 
LH423
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:32 am

Why is it that American feign themselves to be capitalists but we're so protectionist of our so-called "institutions". Sorry, but no one believed Eastern or PanAm would no longer exist. And no one can really believe what it'd be like without US Airways, United, or American. But the fact is, the essence of being capitalist is letting the market decide.

You know, it's funny...Americans criticise Europe as being a group of socialist, welfare states. But in reality, the EU has more of a respect of the free market than Americans. While there are still a few airlines where the government holds a minority stake, the only recent government bail-out of an airline was the Swiss government's action towards the collapse of Swissair. The EU came down on Italy hard for thinking of giving Alitalia more subsidies. They made the Belgian government allow SABENA to go the way of other great "institutions".

Frankly, it's business. Sir Big B sees an opportunity here in the US. He's capitalizing on it by choosing to fly what he wants, where he wants. He's not going to shrug and say "Well, we wouldn't want to cause more harm to our ailing competition", nor has jetBlue, Spirit, nor did America West, nor did Southwest. Who cares about the colour on Richard Branson's passport. If he thinks that he can do things differently, in a way that will attract passengers, and make money, while supporting the US economy...more power to him. I like how so many people are rooting for B6 or WN, yet as soon as the idea that the company might have a foreigner owning a minority interest suddenly that company will be the ruination of the American aviation industry as we know it.

Nevermind this is company starting with 18 Airbus aircraft. jetBlue placed orders for quite a few more Airbus aircraft that 18 at the beginning yet no one batted an eye.

As an American I can freely say that we need to get over ourselves.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
airways6max
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:37 am

It's too bad that Virgin feels it has to order from Airbus, that the leadership thinks they're better aircraft than Boeing. It seems that the 737 is becoming an outdated design and Boeing had better turn out the 7E7-based replacement if it wants to stay in the aircraft industry.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:39 am

It seems that the 737 is becoming an outdated design

On what facts to you base this tasty nugget of personal opinion?
 
Ken777
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:52 am

I think Virgin America will be OK, just as Virgin Blue has in Australia.

I can also understand the situation with Airbus. Planes would be available, where 737's would be at lease a year longer. It appears more of a situation of too many 737's sold for future delivery than aircraft preferences - Virgin Blue does use 737's and is doing very well.
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:54 am

I do not see why people are bashing Virgin America - it brings more choice to travelers, and certainly will bring lower prices. While the Airbuses may be European, the engines they will go with will be half-American so there you go one benefit for the US economy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Ultimately, the airline industry will become more competitive and healthier thanks to the more options travelers have.

VS11
 
eclipseflight7
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:55 am

I meant seeing as he said it would be American aircraft in use that I got kinda pissed at.
Holy sh*ts and burritos.
 
planemaker
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:56 am

"It seems that the 737 is becoming an outdated design and Boeing had better turn out the 7E7-based replacement...

After being awarded the Navy's MMA $4-billion contract - and the fact that US Navy and export models will be built on the same line, Boeing is saying that the 737 will be around for another 2 decades...
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
gigneil
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:56 am

Why is it that American feign themselves to be capitalists but we're so protectionist of our so-called "institutions".

Hear hear.

There just aren't any 737-700/-800's available compared with the oversupply of A320's in the market.


Airbus is building A320s faster than Boeing is building 737s. There's hardly an "oversupply", when people are signing up for more new ones every day.

N
 
chgoflyer
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:00 am

Very interesting... I give them three years provided the economy is in an upturn. Shame the the business traveler wont fly them.
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:01 am

Gigneil.. I would look to see 737 production being increased in the near future.. don't you worry. There's been a lot of meetings over the cost/benefit analysis of re-opening the 2nd 737 line which has been dormant for several years now. I expect them to re-open the 2nd line in the very near future. Especially given the MMA contract...
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
gigneil
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:05 am

I want to clear a few things up.

This is good for the US economy. It provides American jobs, is largely owned by American investors, and will help Americans get access to affordable air travel. This is EXACTLY what the US needs - outside investment is what keeps major economies healthy.

Branson agreed to fly Boeings (40% of each is non-American) if the US relaxed ownership laws. They did not, so Branson (don't hear anyone complaining about Virgin Mobile) picked the best offer, Airbus (each of which is almost 45% American).

This is a capitalist society. A free market. If our carriers die, they deserve to die. Foreign investment KEEPS people in jobs.

If you're one of those offshoring whiners that complains that other markets are depressing the US economy, I quote you the reasons.

1) Republicanomics that set the current tax laws, where its much cheaper both bottom line wise and tax wise to offshore.
2) Unions. Simple.
3) The average American worker these days is uneducated and lazy, and American CEOs know it.

N
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:12 am

Gigneil,

I agree with you.

vs11
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:21 am

This sounds a very interesting airline and wish Virgin could offer the LCC brand in the UK. They would be serious competition to the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet.

I am personally surpirised they have opted for Airbus when both Virgin Blue and Virgin Express operate the 737's. The only smaller airbus Virgin has operated is when they created the UK charter airline "Virgin Sun" back in the 1999-2001 and they eventually sold this to Air 2000.


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Just one questions (and this is not intended to offend anyone!)... Why do some American's seem to have this problem flying Airbus aircraft, when I was travelling with US Airways on their domestic flights I have heard other passengers complaining about this. When travelling in Europe I have never heard anyone complaining about flying Boeing, is this because the US is a patriotic country?

Is anyone having trouble loading their webpage? I have followed the link and downloaded Macromedia Player and the website confirms I have downloaded it, but nothing is appearing on Virgin America's website.
 
trevd
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:36 am

I've always loved this "A320 is 7 inches wider" statement. Shows the strength of Airbus' marketing machine. Is it true? Yes. The question is where? We got Airbus to confess that the 7 inches is actually measured on the OUTER diameter of the fuselage, and it is measured at the floor - not at shoulder or eye level.

While the A320 series has a slightly wider aisle, I've always preferred the window seat on the 737 over the A320. If you look carefully, you'll see the contour of the A320 curves in greater leaving less shoulder room to the sidewall.
 
L.1011
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:43 am

“This is the type of economic boost the U.S economy needs,” said Fred Reid, who is leading the formation of the future carrier.

Yep, this one little 18 European plane airline will definitely save the US economy. That is one brilliant comment.  Insane
 
7e72004
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:44 am

does anyone think what happened with the tech bubble bursting will happen with the LCC airlines??
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
pixuk
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:46 am

I had the privilege of meeting Sir Richard yesterday at the Virgin Atlantic Channel Challenge. I asked him specifically about Virgin USA, and whilst he wasn't about to hand over the operational plans to a total stranger, he did say it would borrow a lot of ideas in regards to product features from Virgin Atlantic. The airline would be based in both San Francisco & New York, and the livery isn't finalised yet but would be "in the spirit" of Virgin Atlantic (apparently he'd just seen some visuals recently, but no decisions have been made).

I know these threads normally deteriorate into either an A vs. B or a USA patriotism battle or even a publicity-seeking Branson rant - but it would be nice to think just for once we could look at the excitement of a new American-owned domestic airline starting up with some innovative service levels normally only seen on international flights. Isn't that worth considering? You know, that might even get a couple of business travellers interested.

Pix
 
worldoftui
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:48 am

Very interesting... I give them three years provided the economy is in an upturn. Shame the business traveler wont fly them

I don't agree. Why would business travelers not use VS USA? They use jetBlue and Southwest. Just like they use Ryanair and Easyjet.
And Virgin being Virgin, you can bet that the onboard product will smash Southwest and compete head to head with jetBlue.

I meant seeing as he said it would be American aircraft in use that I got kinda pissed at.
Why should he use American aircraft? Why does it matter? A large new LCC like Virgin America can only benefit the cities it serves and the country as a whole. Stop whining that they didn't buy Boeing.

LH423
I like how so many people are rooting for B6 or WN, yet as soon as the idea that the company might have a foreigner owning a minority interest suddenly that company will be the ruination of the American aviation industry as we know it. Nevermind this is company starting with 18 Airbus aircraft. jetBlue placed orders for quite a few more Airbus aircraft that 18 at the beginning yet no one batted an eye.

As an American I can freely say that we need to get over ourselves


I would put you on my respected users for those comments. Except you already are!  Smile

We have a very liberalised air system within Europe, IMHO much more than the USA (excluding the archaic Bermuda II). Fair play to a foreign owner giving the USA a go, when he can only receive limited benefit. Seems like the hundreds of US citizens who will gain employment from him will receive a better benefit than him.

Remember, we have an Irish airline taking over the UK and Europe. Its called free-enterprise. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with "jetBlue Europe." Bring it on. If they can improve the travel experience and provide increased competition and better choice, who cares what they fly and who owns them


Mark


 
Craigy
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:56 am

Virgin Atlantic operated the A320 and 321


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worldoftui
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:58 am

Good point Craig. I too forgot about the LHR/LGW - ATH flights. Always a weird fit within VS - wasn't surprised that it got dropped.

Never realised that they got them painted into the new colours though!


Mark
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:42 am

The flights to ATH are a good example of the licensing strategy of Sir Richard. The original flights were operated by SouthEast European Airlines, licensing the Virgin brand, and later were true Virgin flights.
 
wingman
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:37 am

Someone above said the average American worker is uneducated and lazy. I'd like to see the proof on that point because the global competitiveness of the American workforce is spectacular to say the least. Do American companies drool for cheap and highly educated engineers from overseas? You bet they do. So do 99% of CEOs in the EU. I meet American and European workers from major multinationals every day and stupidity generally runs about equal in both groups...as does general intelligence. Maybe the poster is one the uneducated and lazy US workers himself.
 
hz747300
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:38 am

The market should decide whether the airline sinks or swims. I cannot believe that anyone is against this! If there were 20 Italian restaurants within a one mile radius of your house and you wanted to open another one, shouldn't you be allowed to? The market will determine whether you have a winning formula or not.

From a passenger perspective the A320 series is much better than the 737 series of planes. To me anyways!
Keep on truckin'...
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:52 am

If I may, I'd like to comment on some of the issues raised here, before it degrades into pointless name-calling and nation-bashing. I just (as in yesterday) got back home to the States after spending the past 3 months in Europe, mostly the U.K. I say this as I don't want to appear like I'm just talking out of my a**. I agree with a lot of what LH423 said, and I suggest everyone reread his comments and keep them in mind while responding to this thread. That said:

"The earliest you can get a 737 from Boeing is mid-2006 and almost all the other lessors have their 737 inventory placed through 2005."

Availability played a huge part in this order, there can be no doubt about that. And yes, it is absolutely true that the 737 production schedule is more booked than the A320's. However, the last numbers I saw put 2005 production at 95% full. That means a few '05 slots are still available, if VUSA really wanted the aircraft. Unfortunately, those are Boeing slots. I don't have the numbers for leasor's slots, so I can't comment on that. Needless to say, though VUSA could have gotten some 737NG's in '05, they probably would not have been able to build up the fleet as fast without looking on the second-hand market.

"Curious though if some of these will be lease returns that GECAS will be pulling from other operators or if these will all be new."

According to the press release, all aircraft (including those from GECAS) will be new.

"But in reality, the EU has more of a respect of the free market than Americans."

That may or may not be true - it's tough to make that kind of sweeping argument. However, if it is true, it has only been so for the past 5-10 years. Therefore, for most Americans, the stereotype you formerly presented is hard to get out of mind. For instance, you rightly point out the SABENA fiasco. SABENA was certainly allowed to fail - but for how long was it artificially propped up?

"It seems that the 737 is becoming an outdated design and Boeing had better turn out the 7E7-based replacement if it wants to stay in the aircraft industry."

Since its introduction, the 737NG has split the narrowbody market with the A32X virtually 50/50. From all appearances, it will continue to do so. Not bad for an 'outdated design.' And BTW, Boeing no more needs a 737 replacement to stay in the aircraft industry than Airbus needs an A32X replacement to do likewise. They are perhaps the closest matched aircraft on the market (performance-wise, the 737-700 and A319 are virtually identical).


"Airbus is building A320s faster than Boeing is building 737s. There's hardly an "oversupply", when people are signing up for more new ones every day."

Although I would hesitate to use the word 'oversupply,' the essential argument is correct. Airbus has indeed been producing A32X's faster than Boeing has been producing 737s. That is partly why so many recent orders have gone to Airbus. However, not all the A32X's have been delivered when Airbus produced them. For instance, at the end of last year, Airbus 'delivered' some 5-10 aircraft, which then sat on the tarmac until the customers could actually take them. In this sense, I would use the term 'overproducing.' Another good indicator on whether supply is over-meeting demand is by looking at lease rates and resale values. Both have been sharply declining on A32X's for the past 3 years. Before anyone argues that it has been a bad time for aviation (which it certainly has been), from memory, these rates have only marginally declined, if at all, for the 737NG's. In fact, 737-800 rates have increased. OTOH, this once again puts pressure on airlines looking for the best deal, since low resale rates forces the resepective manufacturer and/or leasor to lower acquisition costs on new-builds.

"We have a very liberalised air system within Europe, IMHO much more than the USA (excluding the archaic Bermuda II). Fair play to a foreign owner giving the USA a go, when he can only receive limited benefit. [snip] Remember, we have an Irish airline taking over the UK and Europe. Its called free-enterprise. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with "jetBlue Europe.""

Worldoftui, this is where I, and I think many Americans, get aggrevated with our friends across the Atlantic - when are you 'nationals' (Brtish, Irish, German, etc.) and when are you 'Europeans'? For instance, in the above statement, you state that Europe as a whole has a more liberalised air system than the U.S. But by saying that, and from the EU trying to act as one body to govern such systems, you are saying that Europe (or at least the EU) is just that - a whole. Therefore, it shouldn't matter whether an 'Irish airline' is taking over the UK or anywhere else in Europe, because Ireland IS Europe, or a part of it. It would be the same as somebody from New York saying the U.S. has a more liberal system than Europe because a Texas airline is taking over all the other states.

To better illustrate what I'm trying to say, I'll give you a personal example. As I said, I have just spent the past 3 months living in the U.K. (London). While there, I met a lot of people who claimed the Americans never go anywhere, and that Europeans travel twice as much as Americans do (apparently, based on their own respective, personal experience). Finally, I decided to investigate the matter. Therefore, whenever someone stated this, I started asking a basic question: Where have you gone? In 99% of the cases, the answers had a very common link: France, Greece, Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc. In other words, all over Europe, but no where else (the one case that they had gone outside Europe - the destination had been the U.S.). I admit that as a percentage, it is entirely possible that more Europeans travel than Americans. However, there is definitely a larger variety of where we travel - Europe, Asia, South America, Australia, etc.

Well, I think I've rambled long enough. Regards,

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.
 
NWDC10
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:15 am

RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:53 am

What's going to happen to the major airlines? As I said earlier, "high cost" airlines can't compete with "low cost" airlines. Flood the USA market with LCC. That's all you will have. Air travel will become alot more affordable for business and leisure travel. All the major airline that "gouged" passengers,(you know what i'm talking about), they won't be able to compete. So i'm glad there are fresh, new airlines. With many jets ordered from LCC, it's only obviouse what is going to happen. Regional airlines will probably be on their own to compete, no major airline feed anymore. Only route for "majors" are international routes. There won't be room for major airlines any more. I'll have to change my name soon. Robert NWDC10
 
whitehatter
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RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:13 am

I don't see what the problem is.

Virgin USA will be employing Americans, paying American taxes, providing revenue to GECAS (American financing) and buying their day-to-day supplies and fuel from American suppliers.

Only 45% of profits for the airline will potentially go elsewhere, the rest will be to American shareholders (and I've a pretty good idea who one of those might be already...). Similarly losses will go the same way.

It's called inward investment, folks. Something Ronnie Reagan was VERY strong on in his day as he saw it as adding to the total value of the American GDP. US companies invest all over the world and have done for a long time; having an external investor wanting to put their money into the US should be regarded as a good economic indicator and not something to scream foul over.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:29 am

Great to see another airline starting up, especially from a more expesive city to fly into/from, as compared to those around it.

As for those who are bashing Virgin for the Airbii order, get over it. It's not like American companies (who make a lot of components for the Airbii) are not involved in the contract. Whenever Airbus gets a deal, these people cry "subsidies, dirt cheap rates etc." - I say "American politics could not win this one over", since Boeing sells solely based on politics (aaaah, those letters that US law makers write to heads of state...)

This also reminds me of a post a while back by this guy at Long Beach bashing jetBlue for rubbing its face at the MD plants where Boeing was laying folks off.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5966
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:36 am

The info you have on the ownership rules bit (and any conspiracy theories derived as a result) is bunk. It's 25% voting rights at this moment in time, but the EU-US Open Skies agreement currently in process will allow at least 49%. I say, 'at least,' because the US has offered that. Obviously the EU wants more.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
kith
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:26 pm

RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:31 pm

Anyone else find it interesting that almost all of their top level managers are former Delta employees? Jumping ship before the collapse? oh great article in todays FT (Financial Times) about the legacy carriers vs. LCC's -Matt in KITH
 
NWDC10
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:15 am

RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:39 pm

I believe that the former DAL managers know what is going to happen to DAL. As we all know. Robert NWDC10
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Virgin America Orders A320 Family

Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:22 pm

Jumping ship before the collapse?

I think it has to do more with Reid not getting CEO. It makes sense that he would bring a group of loyal employees with him.

does anyone think what happened with the tech bubble bursting will happen with the LCC airlines??

You can't quite compare them. LCCs can always stimulate demand by lowering prices. That is a concept Southwest pioneered. With low prices, demand will be stimulated, and the airline can add capacity rather than increase prices.

LCC's aren't going anywhere. The fate of the majors is still in the air--Will highpaying business travellers EVER return to the skies?


Yep, this one little 18 European plane airline will definitely save the US economy. That is one brilliant comment.


He didn't say that it will save the US economy. He said it is just what the US economy needs. Thousands will be employed directly and indirectly, millions of US dollars will be spent, thousands more will travel and spend money, Virgin America is GOOD for the US economy!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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