Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:49 am

The real problem is that english speaking Canadians have mostly poor language skills relying on the power of the english language worldwide. So the big weakness is in their side.

It's an English-speaking world. Get used to it. Speak English, or fall by the wayside. Spanish is also on the ascendency. French, however, is in worldwide decline.

Yyz717, It's PAP, not POP. POP Is Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic. PAP Is Port au Prince, Haiti, where they speak French.

Thanks! It was Port au Prince that I meant.

Here we have a right-wing conservative YYZ717, who would rather militarize space then fix the social issues, and political issues in his own country. He could care less about the rights of minorities.

Here we have FLYYUL, who still lives at home with Mom & Dad, has never paid taxes, and hence does not understand the depth and anger of the Ad scandal.

1.) Air Canada, based in Montreal, is already a bonus. Salaries in Montreal, and cost of operations are about 20-25% cheaper than any other Canadian city of its size.

Beside the point. AC should be able to locate its HQ where it wants.

2.) Bilingual flight attendants allow Air Canada to have the maximum efficiency in route planning, crew planning, and irregular operations.

I'm sure SAA said the same thing when it only hired white FA's. This bilingual policy is discriminatory and racist.

5.) Air Canada customer loyalty in Quebec is excellent. And the reason why they continue to fly Air Canada over other carriers, is mostly due to the fantastic bilingual service that is provided.

Great. Then provide bilingual service on all YUL flights, but drop the French elsewhere. It's irrelavant.

More and more, I am completely marvelled by the anti-Quebec sentiment by Canadians in this country.

Mark, this is just common sense. French service only where it's needed.

I have seen you to be an AC supporter and I certainly am--so why should AC bear the brunt of the federal govt's language policy?

Mike, the unspoken reality is that Quebecers know that they will always be at the front of the line for AC jobs due to this bilingual requirement. The dropping of the French will mean they will have to compete with English Cdns for jobs. Mike you are not extremist -- you are sound and logical.

how can you honestly say hiring bilingual costs more than not? How does not hiring bilingually save money? Would someone PLEASE explain this?

Fly any AC flight from YYZ, YVR or YYC, and it will be full of pur laine Quebecois FA"s transferred there to provide French. This is costly, and racist.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:53 am

AC sends many a French speaking pax through YYZ, to destinations around the world. Its important that this be remembered.

Then they must be flying to English speaking cities, so English-only FA's should suffice. YYZ/YVR has larger Spanish & Chinese communities than French, yet AC does not put Chinese FA's on YYZ-SFO.

This bilingual policy is racist Mark. It needs to be stopped, just like the white-only hiring that SAA had under apartheid.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
planeguy
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:52 am

What about Jetsgo, Canjet and Westjet? Do these carriers have a similar bilingual policy as well? I've noticed their websites have the French and English language options but what about on board with their crews? Sorry for not knowing but AC is the only Canadian carrier I've taken (hopefully that'll change once Westjet and Westjet come down to LA).
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:17 am

Planeguy--

You've hit it on the head--those other carriers are free to implement the policies best suited to them--and in most cases it is correct to say that their product is offered in french as well as English given market forces--good for them--I have no complaint with that whatsoever--

But for Air Canada there is a federal statute which REQUIRES AC and AC alone to provide 100% bilingual service and also prohibits them from moving their head adminsitrative office from YUL. This latter point is a red herring, their operations centre is YYZ and frankly I don't think they would necessarily even want to move their head office out of YUL--it's slower economy means lower prices for them--it is a centre of aviation industry (Bombardier ICTA etc), so they would probably not exercise their right to relocate as their current head office location in YUL makes sense, given that their operations hub is YYZ. But as you can see, there are many posters who are very defensive on the issue of whether YUL should lose its mandated preferred location for the head office--

But to put this in perspective, think of this contextual example: imagine if there was in the US a federal statute passed by Congress called the "American Airlines Act"--statutorily requiring AA to provide bilingual services WHEREVER they fly, despite the market makeup, and prohibiting them from moving their corporate office from DFW should they choose to--imagine these restrictions federally imposed on AA and not any other major airline--

Ludicrous no?

I for one am NOT suggesting for a second that many many routes in canada, and airports, shouldnt to have French language available. Indeed they should, I fully respect that. It is an official language of Canada, albeit a minority in numbers, but nonetheless is entitled to respect as one of 2 official languages in the country--I have no problem with that.

However, you will see that I am called extremist because I have dared to suggest that it is inappropriate for the federal govt of Canada to attempt to engineer language policy by imposing an Act on AC alone requiring AC alone to behave a certain way--call me crazy I guess--if I am "extremist" in that view that is politically correct Canada at its worst--

 
MrFord
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 9:03 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:23 am

I understand and I'm perfectly in agreement with the idea of dropping this Act. A private corporation shouldn't be forced directly by an Act to offer bilingual service.

Now, I don't see why we should hire bilingual people on flight from YUY to YUL, of YUL to YQB... Well, even if they only speak English, people traveling here are supposed to know French, as they are in a French province...

And why Japanese F/As should speak English too ? As far as I know, Japanese is the official language of Japan. You're traveling into a Japanese country, so you should know Japanese...

Ok, sarcasm beside, I think it would be normal to have at least 1 bilingual FA onboard any major flight of Air Canada. This doesn't need a govn't Act, just a company' regulation, as in any big private Canadian corporation.

Yeah, English is the universal language, and I do speak English, but I don't see why everyone think French is evil, do you fear that we'll invade the Canada and force everyone to speak French  Innocent I work in a French province and I do have to be bilingual for my job, and I never thought that this was discrimination. Just because you speak the universal language doesn't mean that you have the science infuse and can't bother to speak another language !
"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:27 am

I will re-iterate.

JetsGo requires 100% bilingual flight attendants

Air Transat is mostly employed by French Canadians.

Each of these companies are racist and discriminatory.

The points made by the anti-ACT side are irrelevant and once again guided by anti-Quebec ideals.

I mean seriously, Quebec is so harmless.

 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:35 am

Fascinating that the best FLYYUL can come up with is to pontificate that "the points made by the anti Act side are irrelevant and once again guided by anti-Quebec ideals"--

Notably missing are any substantive responses to the issues raised--

Once again--the point is missed--if jetsGo is 100% bilingual, great, terrific, tremendous, fanatstic, and good for JetsGo. Now, tell me the federal legislation that REQUIRES them to be so in order to carry on business?

But I guess that is an irrelevant question driven by my "anti Quebec biases"--
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:37 am

"However, you will see that I am called extremist because I have dared to suggest that it is inappropriate for the federal govt of Canada to attempt to engineer language policy by imposing an Act on AC alone requiring AC alone to behave a certain way--call me crazy I guess--if I am "extremist" in that view that is politically correct Canada at its worst--"

-Cayman, Air Canada is the only carrier that flies to litte destinations in Quebec, where unfortunately, the knowledge of english is limited. Many of these people transfer in Toronto to get to their final destination. Without bilingualism, these people easily get lost and dont feel at home transferring in an airport in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. (Bagotville, Roberval, Val D'or, Rouyn, Gaspe, Iles-De-La Madeleine, Sept-Iles, Montreal, Ottawa/Hull, Moncton, Quebec City, Mont-Joli and Rimouski).

So this act applies to them. I commend the Canadian government in their attempt to make minorities feel more welcome and protected in their own home.

The bilingualism is not inefficient, and is not the deciding factor of AC's bottom line.

There is a reason why Quebeckers are very loyal to Air Canada. Im not sure Air Canada would like to put that in jeopardy, and I dont recall a public cry on AC's part to abolish this system/act.

WHAT CONCERNS ME MORE:

-That the people in accordance with the anti-AC act and that the govt proposing this, is a a conservative pro-WestJet party wanting to jeopardize that which Air Canada does really well at.

I dont buy any right-wing appeal to save Air Canada. These are the same people who use unethical business practices to get their point across (i.e. Calgary airport administration giving Air Canada secrets to WestJet, continued right-wing western based hatred for Air Canada).

And the AC based in YUL.. protecting the french Canadians whom are part of the success and heritage of this company. And if it does move to YYZ, how will it improve their profitability, or their costs.

 
User avatar
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:41 am

Each of these companies are racist and discriminatory.

??? Because a company wants you to speak at least two languages ???  Angry

This is a crazy remark...  Yeah sure

FLYYUL; be aware that most flight attendants on this world have to be at LEAST bilingual because they have to speak YOUR language: ENGLISH !!

Learn to open yourself you and your brain and learn another language. Believe me...
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:43 am

Cayman,

Your missing the point. And in any case, my "in favor" of the act opinion is best described in my precedent posting.

The issue at hand is bilingualism, and the apparent discrimination and racism that arises as a result.

And if your so upset that there is a federal act behind AC, take a minute and realize that it is just a bunch of words on a piece of legislature. How would AC do differently in today's marketplace?

 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:44 am

"Flying Belgian"

-Sir.. I am with you. My post was sarcastic in nature, and meant to show that the same AC criticsm should be applied to JetsGo and Air Transat.

And Im pro-bilingualism. Unfortunately not many on a conservative type agenda are enlightened enough to understand its benefits.

Cheers!

 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:02 am

Re: I'm sure SAA said the same thing when it only hired white FA's.

No. SAA hired only white FA (and virtually all other staff) because that was the LAW. SAA was owned by the South African Railways, and subject to job reservation legislation as were all state-owned institutions. It was a stupid law, but don't blame SAA for it.

P.S. All SAA staff had to be bilingual as well (English and Afrikaans).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:35 am

And the AC based in YUL.. protecting the french Canadians whom are part of the success and heritage of this company.

What success? AC is bankrupt and could still easily be liquidated. Heritage? There is no room for heritage in business.

Forced bilingualism is a racist program that (perhaps deliberately) favours pur laine Quebecois hiring norms. Shame on Air Canada! Shame! There is more to Canada than pur laine Quebecois!







I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:56 am

Although the Air Canada Act seems to be overly meddlesome, let's cut to the chase here. We all can choose to be bilingual, just as we can all choose to to get a college education.

If the Conservative Party in Canada thinks hiring only bilingual employees is discriminatory, then what will it come up with next? Will it then campaign to fight discrimination against those who don't have college degrees?

In order to compete successfully in the global marketplace it is becoming ever more important to speak more than one language. Having a bilingual workforce, in the long-run, helps a company be MORE efficient. As for giving flight announcements in English and French being inefficient, well, that's hogwash. Having to make extra-long announcements won't have an impact on an airline's bottom line. Being able to move employees to where the company needs them is efficient and cost effective.

Regardless of how many people in North America speak English it's time everyone get with the program and realize that if you are unilingual you are at a disadvantage in the workplace because you CHOSE not to learn a 2nd language.

Having the ability to communicate in more than one language means you can provide more value to companies that compete in the global marketplace. I don't have sympathy for English-only speakers in Canada when Canada's second largest city just happens to also be the second largest French-speaking city in the world.

I'm beginning to get the impression that Canada's Conservative Party has a lot in common with liberal Democrats here in Massachusetts!
 
AF-A319
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 3:18 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:07 am

Yyz 717, why so much anger? why so much hate towards what you name the "pur laine quebecois".

You're a "Director of Finance"... don't you think you have better things to do than bashing our community?

Care, respect for others, and dignity are core values in Canada. With such an attitude, it's no surprise why many quebecois don't feel well in the confederation... so please show more respect in the future if you really care for our country.

Vive le Canada! Vive la Différence! Vive le Billinguisme!
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:07 am

Bostonguy, I don't disagree with you in principal. My only point is LET THE MARKET PLACE RULE.

French is literally a foreign language here in Toronto, far less common that Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese, German (yes -- over 1M Ontarians have German background).

The ONLY jobs ANYWHERE in Toronto that REQUIRE French are AC FA jobs. This is racism, pure and simple.

LET THE MARKET PLACE RULE.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:10 am

Set aside the debate on bilingualism--I am all for it--I am not all for the govt usuing private corporations to enforce it--

Can anyone defend the statutory requirement that the head office must remain in YUL? I don't think they would want to move even if permitted.

But that is beside the point. Why should a federal act of parliament be necessary to ensure that a company keep its head office in YUL? That is insanity--

Once again--I think people are missing the point here--I have never complained about bilingual AC flight attendants, or use of the French language. I have complained about the federal government mandating this and ONLy with respect to Air Canada.

Do these same people that so vociferously support this Act also support the radical separatist party in Quebec which has banned the public use of English in commercial signs and invoked the notwithstanding clause of the Constitution to override the fact that the Courts found this to be an infringment of freedom of speech? Put your money where your mouths are if you are al such bilingualism idealists.

Let's stop skirting the issue here--I hope those of you that label me extremist also have the integrity to stand up and declare Quebec's English only policies outrageous and racist.

Or are you only prepared to address one side of a double standard today?
 
AF-A319
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 3:18 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:10 am

YYz, a personal question...

Have you been refused your dream job at AC because you did not speak French? In that case, I could understand your frustation... but please don't make it an issue!

VIVE LE CANADA! VIVE LA DIFFERENCE! VIVE LE BILINGUISME!

PS: does Milton speak French?
 
CanadaEH
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:53 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:18 am

FLYYUL what you've been saying is a complete joke. I don't give two shits about politics and I could care less about language issues, so take my comment for what it is.

There is a reason why Quebeckers are very loyal to Air Canada. Im not sure Air Canada would like to put that in jeopardy, and I dont recall a public cry on AC's part to abolish this system/act.

If the Act is abolished, why would this change anything? Air Canada (the company and business) will make the choice whether or not to continue its practice of hiring bilingual staff or not. Flights which would need (not require) a bilingual FA (whether it be French, Chinese, German, or Japanese) will be staffed with a bilingual FA regardless of an Act or not. If Air Canada wants to maintain its "international recognition" then it'll continue to cater to its bilingual customers.
EH.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:38 am

Care, respect for others, and dignity are core values in Canada.

If you truly believe this AF-A319, then you will agree that the forced bilingual policy discriminates against the English majority.

All I am a proponent of is equality and fairness for everyone. 29% of Cdns speak French so it's reasonable that NO MORE THAN 29% of AC FA's should speak French.

Unless......you're not interested in "care, respect for others, and dignity" for the silent English-only majority AF-A319.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
trintocan
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:46 am

Come on guys, this vicious debate has become overly political and and extremist to a degree. Why the comparisons with South Africa during Apartheid? That is totally irrelevant.

Canada is an officially bilingual country and that has been one of its great strengths. Back in the 60s laws tended to be seen as necessary to ensure equality in the provision of services and hence the reason the AC Act exists. The truth is that any AC flight may have French speakers on-board and as the de facto national airline it should maintain an official bilingual policy. Cabin crew of many airlines from unilingual nations do need language skills in others - even BWIA from Trinidad does see Spanish as an asset in its staff. The staff in question are still able to communicate in English - why the cries of discrimination? If a potential applicant needs to learn French to apply why can that not be seen as a challenge for personal improvement rather than an impediment?

Air Canada - the name is bilingual, the airline should officially remain so.

Oh Canada, our home and native land...

TrintoCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3702
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:05 am

If they are connecting to an English-speaking city, then there is a 100% chance they must speak English. "Deserve" is a motherhood word anywayv - it means nothing

Agreed. People dont deserve anything, nor should they ever demand anything. I also hate it when people say "i demand this....".
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
rindt
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:54 am

Tell me - why is a French speaking F/A required on a flight from YVR-CUN? YVR-SYD? YVR-SEA? Do tell. How is it fair for the other 9 provinces and 3 territories be forced to conform to the will of ONE province. If that's not inefficient, I don't know what is. Let the AIRLINE decide, not some maniacal law. It's about the principal.

That said, I'm all for speaking many languages - I speak English, French, and have a decent grasp of German.

Irregardless, the rest of Canada will always have issues with Quebec, until Quebec decides to remove the proverbial diaper, and joins Canada. Knock off the mandatory 25% MP representation to a proportional representation, change over to Common Law like the rest of Canada, and stop acting "special". This is arrogance, this is why we can be resentful of Quebec. Everytime you guys feel it necessary to host a referendum, the CDN $ plummets. It's a lose-lose situation for almost everybody involved.


-Rob





What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
FLYACYYZ
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:13 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:02 am

As a bilingual crew member, it is simply a marketing strength to have french qualified crew members on board the aircraft. As YYZ717 pointed out, living in a multi-cultural diverse city such as Toronto, most flights departing the city would be better served offering Cantonese, Mandarin, Italian, Hindi, Punjabi, etc to address the populaton base.

WHITEGUY pointed out that only one bilingual crew member is requried on board. Not exactly true. It is dictated by the size of the aircraft, and on flights departing YUL to CDG-PAP-FDF, and go figure this one YUL-MIA, 100% bilingual crews are required.

The biggest all time waste of AC productivity involves the CRJ. Originally, the aircraft was blocked for 1 bilingual Purser, until a discrimination suit (yes Canada needs to be all things to all people),was launched by a unilingual crew member. Consequently if a unilingual crew member was flying YYZ-MCI with 6 customers, a bilingual flight attendant was added to adhere to the federal languauges act. All bilingual Pursers continued to fly solo with up to a full load of 50 customers.

While I support bilingualism on board for commercial and competitive practices, another WASTE of AC money is devoted to bilingual documentation. Air Canada is allegedly the largest user of printed matter in the country as every document, manual, and memo must be printed in both languages resulting in tens of milions of dollars annually in excess costs.

Above and Beyond
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:09 am

As a bilingual crew member, it is simply a marketing strength to have french qualified crew members on board the aircraft.

Really? Well AC is bankrupt, while all the other uni-lingual Cdn airlines flying out of Toronto are recording record revenue and record profits. This suggests that no one gives a rat's ass about French speaking FA's in YYZ. Not much of a marketing advantage.

All bilingual Pursers continued to fly solo with up to a full load of 50 customers.

Another example of AC racism against the English majority. How many YYZ'ers cannot get FA jobs on AC YYZ-based CRJ's I wonder? Probably hundreds. Shameful.

While I support bilingualism on board for commercial and competitive practices

I do also, for market based reasons.








I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:18 am

Actually, Yyz717, I used to live in Toronto and can assure you there are plenty of companies in Toronto other than Air Canada that require bilingual skills in order to be hired for specific jobs. Also, your assertion that French is a foreign language in Toronto is patently false. It may not be the dominant language, but it's still far more prevalent than you lead one to believe.

Of Toronto's 4.2 million residents those of French descent outnumber those of German descent by over 2 to 1.

Also, I highly recommend you consult a dictionary for the word "racist". I think you'll find that "race" has nothing to do with the language one speaks. If it did then Americans would be speaking to each other in a hodge podge of indecipherable languages due the vast mixture of races in our population.

If the Air Canada Act should be repealed then make a justified case for that. But please, don't drag your own personal insecurities into the discussion.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:19 am

Bostonguy,

Very well put. I check monster.ca for jobs in YTO, and could find countless jobs requiring bilingualism.

Ah the horror.

 
chock head
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:55 am

This post is tiresome. FLYYUL you are no better than those you accuse of being an extremist.

The act of disagrreing with your point of view brands one an extremist and horror of horrors, an Albertan. I am a bilingual Albertan. As this is an internet message board I don't get too excited about what someone posts but your level of maturity in this discourse leavers a lot to be desired.

Why can you not grasp the basic arguement that some on this post are trying to make. Namely that AC should not have to be governed by a government act. The abolition of the act does mean that they should get rid of bilingul FA, it just means the corporation should be free to run itself as it sees fit.

For someone who claims that they work in the industry your grasp of the issue is remarkably weak.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:26 pm

Also, I highly recommend you consult a dictionary for the word "racist". I think you'll find that "race" has nothing to do with the language one speaks.

Race has everything to do with this issue. The overwhelming majority of bilingual Canadians are pur laine Quebecois. English Cdns dont need to learn French; French Cdns by & large need to learn English. Hence, ANY job that requires bilingualism will automatically result in MOST successful applicants being Quebecois. AC has no choice but to hire large numbers of Quebecois as FA's.

This hiring policy for AC FA's is not reflective of the English majority in Canada and not reflective of Canada's diversity. It is absolute racism, in its purest form.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8943
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:37 pm

I'd like to make some points of information here to clarify some misconceptions that exist about bilingualism at Air Canada.

a) The AIR CANADA ACT was repealed in 1988.

b) The current law that places various restrictions on Air Canada is the AIR CANADA PUBLIC PARTICIPATION ACT that was passed in 1988 as a condition of transfering regulation of Air Canada from the auspicies of the Air Canada Act (as a state-owned entity) to the Canada Business Corporations Act (as a private entity).

c) There are no specific provisions of the Air Canada Public Participation Act that REQUIRE Air Canada to maintain French speaking flight attendants on every flight. The relevant area is actually located in Part IV and Part V of the OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT which, with the sole exception of Air Canada out of the millions of private companies registered in Canada, applies ONLY to "federal departments, boards, commissions and Crown corporations".

d) The Official Languages Act applies to other private businesses engaged in public sector transportation ONLY when there is a specific proportion of their local clientele (with a threshold ranging between 5% to 30% depending on the specific location) who REQUIRE service in the language of the linguistic minority.

e) A clearer picture actually emerges from Section 10, Subsection 10, Parts (a), (b), (c) and (d) of the Air Canada Public Participation Act that requires that Air Canada (but no other airline) must provide any "passenger, shipper or consignee using or intending to use an air service, including incidental services... can obtain (the following) services... in either official language - ticketing and reservation services, information, including notices and announcements, that it publishes or causes to be published to inform its customers in respect of its routes or tariffs, services provided or made available to customers at an airport, including the control of passengers embarking and disembarking aircraft, announcements directed at customers and counter services; and services related to baggage or freight claims and client relations".

f) Pursuant to points (c) and (e) above, the interpretation has been made by courts that it extends to Air Canada (but no other airline) having at least one bilingual (bilingual in Canada is defined solely as proficiency in both English and French - no other languages are recognized as Official Languages for the purpose of bilingualism so a speaker of English and even ten other languages is considered unilingual under law) Flight Attendant aboard every single flight worldwide, having at least one bilingual Airport Agent at every airport served worldwide, having at least one bilingual sales agent at every sales office (including contracted GSAs) worldwide and having every document, manual, communique or memorandum, whether for external or internal use, be available in both Official Languages, regardless of the demand.

g) Furthermore, the Air Canada Public Participation Act has other provisions too that REQUIRE Air Canada (but no other airline) to "maintain operational and overhaul centres in the City of Winnipeg, Manitoba; the Montreal Urban Community; and the City of Mississauga, Ontario".

h) Furthermore, the Air Canada Public Participation Act has other provisions too that REQUIRE Air Canada (but no other airline) maintain "that the head office of the Corporation is to be situated in the Montreal Urban Community".

In view of the above, it is very clear that Air Canada is subjected to restrictions that are NOT consistent with the intention of the Canada Transportation Act to provide a level playing field for all competitors in the transportation marketplace.

Air Canada, by virtue of its status as the largest carrier to the French speaking regions of the country, will always maintain a large enough workforce who will NEED to be proficient in the language simply to provide marketplace competitive services there, as well as to remain in compliance with those parts of the Official Languages Act that apply equally to all common carriers.

Air Canada no longer receives any special favors from the Federal Government. This has been made painfully obvious for the carrier over the last few years as it has been subjected first to business constraining restrictions imposed by the Federal Government as a result of the CP merger and later received no grants, loans or loan guarantees from the Federal Government during its restructuring process. This is in contrast to their competitors such as Canada3000 who were offered financial bailout packages by the Federal Government during their financial difficulties.

Hence, Air Canada should no longer be constrained by the provisions of the Air Canada Public Participation Act which specify specific exemptions for Air Canada and no other carrier from the Canada Transportation Act and the Canada Business Corporations Act.

If Air Canada chooses to maintain these same provisions as a result of an internal policy decision to pursue that line of action in commercial interest, then so be it their prerogative to do so. However, the Government has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS specifying special conditions for Air Canada when it provides no quid pro quo in return.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:21 pm

Wow, I made it to the end (or what is the end thus far).

Sean, I agree with what you say, and thanks for providing some clarification as per the issues involved.

In view of the above, it is very clear that Air Canada is subjected to restrictions that are NOT consistent with the intention of the Canada Transportation Act to provide a level playing field for all competitors in the transportation marketplace.


If anything, THAT is where the problem lies, as has been alluded to by many members above. It is the fact that, despite Air Canada being a private entity, it is FORCED by the hand of the government to comply with regulations that pertain ONLY to them. This is where the discrimination against Air Canada lies. Otherwise, if the government wants Air Canada to comply with special requirements, then just as stupidly, the government should just hand over cash to Air Canada, and operate it as a quasi crown corporation.

Of course, I'm kidding about that last part, and just as I don't want to see the government bailing out Air Canada, I do want to see the government providing a level playing field for all companies in the industry.

FLYYUL, I also completely disagree with your assertion that it is an ultra right wing conservative agenda to see Quebec and the French language lose their role in Canada. It is simply common sense, and good business sense to allow Air Canada to walk on its own two feet and make decisions for themselves. I can assure you, they will make more good decisions on their own, than they will by holding hands with the government.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ScandinA340
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:01 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:20 pm

Hey all,

Why do some people claim that the market is an efficient means of dealing with linguistic variations? Surely Canada's unique situation requires the government to take specific steps to protect minority languages. And you'd expect that the basic infrastructure of the country - i.e. air travel - would be equally accessible to all, regardless of whether the were born in la belle province and speak french or whether they come from the english-speaking majority.

As a former AC worker in SYD, I was expected to speak French, and had to use it on several occasions despite our flights linking to HNL, and from there YVR & YYZ. It's a Canadian airline - it's likely to speak the languages of Canada - just like you'd expect a French airline to speak French, a Japanese airline to speak Japanese, and SAS to speak 27 languages  Smile

Aviation plays a critical role in making a country like Canada function. Bridging vast distances could not be more critical to national infrastructure. I would be stunned if any government would subjugate the realities of linguistic diversity to the whims of a majority in a marketplace.

This situation is not at all different to the application of affirmative action laws in the US to increase representation in employment from minority groups. Divergent views can be expected...
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:40 pm

Why do some people claim that the market is an efficient means of dealing with linguistic variations?

Because, as seen above, Jetsgo has all their flight attendants bilingual. The vast majority of Air Transat's staff is bilingual. These airlines are examples of the market determining on its own, without government intervention, the needs of the French speaking public. And trust me, Air Canada would not change at all with respect to the hiring of French speaking individuals.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:32 pm

Yeah, much ado about not very much, right here. And all started by you-know-who, too  Laugh out loud LOL
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:07 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:45 am

The most amusing thing about the arguments here are the continuing perceptions that AC is a "national" carrier and instrument of Canadian Federal gov't policy. It used to be - but hasn't been that for many years and has suffered greatly due to the political decisions in Ottawa that treat at as though it is still a crown corp. If the fed's really want an instrument of gov't policy then subsidize AC for those costs, if not, free it up to compete on a level playing field. My vote will not be for the party that proposes the status quo. But since a condition of restructuring is a "level playing field" the other parties are still playing silly games with AC's future by saying nothing at all positive about what they will do to ensure AC is viable.
 
yulguy
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:09 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:56 am

Quote: 'They are indeed discriminatory when 71% of Canadians are ineligible to apply for FA positions because they speak English-only.' -- Yyz717

Wow, I thought that dinasour attitudes did not exist like that anymore in English Canada. How can you say that requiring a language skill is discrimatory? Nothing is stopping Anglophones from learning French, or any other language for that matter. Requiring a language skill is not discriminatory.

In regards to your assertion that most French-speakers in Canada are "pûr laine": Please visit us here in Montreal and see that we are just as multi-ethnic as Toronto, yet we all speak French. Most Quebecers, like most English-Canadians, do not speak the other official language. Your hatred of Quebec and French Canada is really sad and I am glad that most English Canadians do not share your point of view.

The reality of our wonderful country and the airline that represents it is that it is made up of 2 main linguistic groups and most companies that want to serve our whole population must do so in French and English. Look at the website of any big company in Canada and you will see bilingualism.

And about the racism part, the vast majority of AC flight attendants are not francophone but anglophones who also speak fluent French. So, if you are bitter about not getting past the first day of the flight attendant cattle call because of your language skills, crack open your elementary school texts and give it a go. Embrace what is different from you and don't fear it.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
yulguy
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:09 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:06 am

EddieHo,

Do you really think there are more Chinese speakers than French speakers? Come on! 30% of people in this country use French in their every day lives and yes, most of us are in Quebec. Montreal is the second largest city in Canada and the second largest in the French-speaking world after Paris. There are no Chinese-speaking cities in Canada. Yes, Cantonese is the third most-spoken language in Canada. Just to let you know EddieHo, there are many Chinese Quebecers who speak French fluently. Get it through your head, Montreal and Quebec is a pluralistic society where French is the lingua franca, just as Toronto is equally diverse with English as the lingua franca.

AC would continue to use the same language policy as they do now even if the law did not require it. It's just good business sense. The law, however, ensures that the minority language rights are respected.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
User avatar
yyz717
Topic Author
Posts: 15779
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:06 am

Nothing is stopping Anglophones from learning French

We don't need to. It's an English world here west of Quebec, and the FA's that serve us on AC flights should only need English.

Your hatred of Quebec and French Canada is really sad and I am glad that most English Canadians do not share your point of view.

I don't hate Quebec. I simply ask for fairness in the hiring of AC FA's and an end to the discrimination of English Cdns.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CanadaEH
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:53 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:14 am

I don't see it as discrimination or racism, yyz717. If you apply for an AME job, you are required to have your ticket or license (or whatever its called). If you apply for a electricians job, you are required to be an electrician. To apply for a bilingual job, you are required to be bilingual. It's not discrimination, it's a job requirement, plain and simple.
EH.
 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8943
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:17 am

To apply for a bilingual job, you are required to be bilingual. It's not discrimination, it's a job requirement

The discrimination occurs not at the hiring stage but at the categorization stage. Why should there be a Government legislated requirement for Air Canada to provide bilingual services above and beyond those required of their competitors? If they choose to hire only bilingual employees on their own accord, that is their right - just as it is the right of Westjet or JetsGo or Canjet. But to require that Air Canada and Air Canada employees be held to a different set of standards is inherently discriminatory.
 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:20 am

YYZ717,

Why don't you and I switch places? It seems as though you would like the US better and I would like Canada better (my grandparents are Canadian citizens, BTW).

I see the conservative proposals as troublesome for Canada. Please, don't privatize your health care system! You will then get the kind of crap that we get here where so many people get NO HEALTHCARE!!!! It's important that English and French speaking Canadians not look at each other as the minority. It makes me livid to hear you talk that way.

I fly AC a lot, not only to Canada, but also Europe (and Asia this fall). One of the things that has impressed me is that Canadians must be provided service in English and French.

It's no secret that you have a stated desire to see AC go bust anyway, so why would anyone who wants AC to survive be in favour of a plan you endorse?

Thank God most Canadians don't agree with you and the Liberals will probably still be in power a week from now.

 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:23 am

Yyz717,

I didn't go trough the entire thread so maybe it's been said before but you got to keep in mind that NOT all AC’s flights have one French-speaking attendant. Actually, it’s far from been the case right now... So no big changes here!

Eric
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
iflyatldl
Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:41 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:28 am

I have to go with Yyz717 on this because: I used to be a Anglophone Montrealer and spoke if at all very little French. I have Dual US citizenship. If I want to relocate to Quebec, I now have to take a test...just to become a resident to determine my proficiency in French, and not even applying for work. A test to determine if I am 'worthy" to reside in Quebec based on my ability to speak French. Racist is perhaps a strong word, but it comes darn close. I don't see BC or Ontario handing out pop quizzes.  Big grin
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:37 am

well first the conservatives have to come into power and lets face it, SCARY is an understatement.
 
CanadaEH
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:53 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:38 am

Why should there be a Government legislated requirement for Air Canada to provide bilingual services above and beyond those required of their competitors?

There shouldn't be. I think I misunderstood what was being said.
EH.
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:57 am

"scary is an understatement"


why don't you just go ahead and let the Toronto Star vote for you by proxy if your are that clever----?

It's times like this I realize there are morons actually reading and believeing that "news"paper---
 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8943
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:00 am

It's times like this I realize there are morons actually reading and believeing that "news"paper

Even scarier is that there are just as many morons reading and believing the National Post. With two highly polarized newspapers like those, no wonder Canadian political thinking is so fucked up.
 
yulguy
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:09 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:12 am

Iflyatldtl (or former Montreal Angryphone),

You do not have to pass a French test to reside in Quebec; please don't be ridiculous. If you are applying to immigrate to Canada, your knowledge of English or French is one of many factors taken into consideration. When applying to immigrate particularly to Quebec, your knowledge of French is taken into consideration as well. Noone is denied entry to Quebec solely on their lack of language skills.
How off topic is this strain getting?
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:50 am

Yulguy,

Join the club of people who are sick and tired of hearing anglo-Canadian and X-Montrealer spit on this city.. its alright, each one of them wish they could live here anyway.. especially after what everybody witnessed on grand prix weekend Big grin  Smile

 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: AC: Forced Bilingual Policy May End Soon

Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:53 am

FLYYUL, where in this thread does anybody spit on Montreal? The consensus is that AC should be able to stand (and die) on its own two feet, rather than play by a different set of rules. This does not imply spitting on Montreal, or la belle province.

If you disagree, please clarify.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos