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aa777flyer
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Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:58 pm

Personally I think Airbus is getting arrogant




From The Engineer, 11 June 2004

Rushed and ridiculous

By Richard Fisher

Airbus has attacked the high proportion of composites used in
Boeing's 7E7 Dreamliner, branding the aircraft's
development 'rushed' and 'ridiculous'.
The 7E7 will contain double the amount of composites used in the
Airbus A380 - including most of the fuselage and wings. But Airbus
claims Boeing has rushed through the technology before it is
sufficiently matured.
Colin Stuart, Airbus vice-president of marketing, said composites
should be introduced with caution in aircraft design. 'If you start
to look at the various loads on composites [in an all-composite
fuselage], it is absolutely the wrong thing to do.'
Current composite material is unsuitable for many areas of the
fuselage claimed Alain Garcia, executive vice-president of
engineering. 'It's perfect for tension and fatigue, but poor for
compression.'
Airbus has stepped up the war of words with Boeing after the US
company criticised weight increases in the A380. Airbus claims the
7E7 will be heavier than Boeing has admitted. 'The 7E7 carries the
weight penalty of a compromised and rushed design,' the company said.
Dr Jürgen Klenner, Airbus senior vice-president of structure
engineering, said today's carbon fibre is often no more than 'black
aluminium' - with the same attributes as traditional materials
-
offering few benefits for the extra cost. Carbon fibre does have
weight advantages, but according to Klenner the cost of the raw
material is up to 500 per cent higher. 'We do not apply a material
because it is trendy, we do it when we are convinced it is mature
enough. There are crucial questions that have not yet been
answered,' he said.
There are concerns that composites present a higher fire risk,
delaminate in humid conditions, and are more expensive to repair.
Prof Phil Irving, civil aviation authority expert in damage
tolerance at Cranfield University, said engineers should dripfeed
composites into aircraft design to avoid 'unexpected
failures. 'There is always a risk when introducing something new on
to an aircraft, no matter how many tests. There's always something
we haven't realised.'
Bird strike, stones or taxiing accidents would greatly reduce the
compressive strength of composites such as carbon fibre. 'You can
avoid the problem by making it thicker, but that has economic
implications. It's rather difficult to see how you can have a whole
fuselage made of composites.'
Airbus chief executive Noel Forgeard claimed the 7E7 would have
identical technology to the A380. 'This is why Boeing has strongly
discounted it to sell it,' he said. Airbus accused Boeing of
tinkering with the 7E7's supposedly advanced technology during its
development, saying the final product will be more conventional and
heavier than originally claimed.
Stuart said: 'They have rushed this aircraft through in a ridiculous
way.'But Boeing denies this, pointing out that the aircraft was
developed in parallel to, rather than after, the company's now-
cancelled project, the Sonic Cruiser.
A Boeing spokesman said: 'We've put a great amount of work into
composites, drawing on the work we've already done on the 777 and a
whole variety of military aircraft. The 7E7 is a bold move, but if
you look at the efficiency and environmental advantages it's a move
in the right direction.'
The 7E7 will contain 50 per cent of its weight in composites, making
it lighter and more fuel-efficient, Boeing claims. The A380
structure contains under 25 per cent composites, while Airbus chose
not to use the carbon fibre wing planned for its future military
aircraft.
Boeing announced this week it expects up to 200 orders for the 7E7
in 2004. Only Japan's All Nippon Airways and Air New Zealand have
placed orders, compared with 129 orders to date for the A380.
Airbus's approach for the A380 is in sharp contrast to Boeing's
claims for the smaller Dreamliner. Airbus is focused on shipping up
to 550 people between megahub airports, while Boeing believes flying
faster and lighter point-to-point is the future of air travel.



[Edited 2004-06-24 17:21:23]
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IanatSTN
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Rediculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:01 am

Personally I think Airbus is getting arrogant

Agreed, and possibly a bit scared???

Cheers  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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AA777
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Rediculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:15 am

I think that's crap, Airbus is worried that they have a major competitor on their hands. It looks like the words of a scared company to me. If there was a problem, let the world and the aviation community find out on their own. Then let them come to Airbus. But now Airbus is on the offensive because they are missing a big market segment-- one that is possibly bigger than the A380...

BTW, I didnt know that Air New Zealand ordered the 7E7!  Smile

-AA777
 
Vorticity
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Rediculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:19 am

The composites probably are the greatest technical challenge on the 7E7 project. They probably think their way is better, but bringing it forth in this manner is really just competitive mud slinging, to which both sides are guilty.

Boeing has a lot of experience with composites in commercial / military use. Don't be surprised if they know what they are doing.
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DeltaMD11
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Rediculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:23 am

As for the article itself and the statements therein from Airbus executives, it' s nothing more than a "my product is better/they're going the wrong way with their new product/their product will not end up what they have said it would be" pissing match. Boeing has talked down the A380 in the past, now this is Airbus's volley back. Hey, it's business-this should be expected.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
rjpieces
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Rediculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:24 am

The war of words continues.

I'm not an engineer so I can't comment on the technical arguments presented....However, the market is responding very well to the 7E7, and that is more important than Airbus' engineering concerns.
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:26 am

I just took a tour the other day of the F/A-22 production at BFI where they will be building the first few 7E7s while Alenia and Mitsubishi get their infastructure in place. Most of the tour revolved around our various work with composites. Believe me, I'm not worried. If the US government has enough faith in our composite technology to trust us to make the wings and aft fuselage of the most advanced fighter jet ever built, with HUGE amounts of composites, then I think we know what we're doing. Believe me, it was impressive to watch the employees as they worked with the machines to build the composite wing skins for the F-22, right before they go into one of the largest autoclaves in the world to be cured. The exact same autoclave that did the wings for the B-2, does work for the F-22, and will do a hell of a lot for the 7E7.

Airbus is just sh*tting their pants over the 7E7 because they know they're not prepared and by the time they get a competitive model into the market, the 7E7 will have taken up huge market share. As Solnabo would say... jahhhhh.
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:26 am

Seems most of the "war" is being fought on the European side of the pond. Airbus is constantly trying to belittle Boeing for everything under the sun. Usually, when a company does that, it's to deflect critcism and scruitny from it's own shortcomings.

One rule in business that is usually true: don't EVER give your competiton any publicity, even bad publicity. Concentrate on what you're doing. Maybe Airbus should take such advice and shut the hell up, and just concentrate on making their products the best thay can be.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:28 am

And one more bit on the topic that I forgot to mention. If Boeing didn't think that the 7E7 would turn into a viable product on target (or darn close to) their proposed performance/weight expectations they wouldn't bother to sink millions and millions of dollars into the project. Boeing engineers know what they are doing and what the limitations are concerning the materials involved. Last I checked Boeing and Airbus shouldn't be telling each other how to build airplanes. They are both very successful companies. But hey, like I said above, that's business.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:45 am

I'm sorry. Who's overweight and potentially in danger of not meeting range requirements???

 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:46 am

Airbus has attacked the high proportion of composites used in Boeing's 7E7 Dreamliner, branding the aircraft's development 'rushed' and 'ridiculous'. But Airbus claims Boeing has rushed through the technology before it is sufficiently matured.

Composites have been in military aircraft for years. American dominance in stealth technology, which relies heavily on composite materials, underscores the extent of this expertese. As for "rushed," Boeing developements are historically shorter than Airbus. In other words, Boeing brings aircraft to market quicker... so nothing new. I'll draw up a table in a moment.

Current composite material is unsuitable for many areas of the fuselage claimed Alain Garcia, executive vice-president of engineering. 'It's perfect for tension and fatigue, but poor forcompression.'

Huh?! My only work with composite materials is Kevlar and fiberglass not carbon fiber, as these two materials better suited my needs, but not once did I read a source in which carbon fiber was not the strongest composite in terms of compression/tensile strenght. I'd say it is possible to build an airliner with last generation carbon fiber, and now we have weaves designed specifically for aviation use!

And food for thought... Airbus decided against using GLARE (an aluminum/fiberglass composite) on the highest stress portions of the A380 fuselage. Maybe Airbus couldn't pull of what Boeing is proposing and they'd just like to throw a little hissy fit. Reminds me of Boeing's early FBW concerns. Aircraft manfactures are forever conservative, and whenever their opponents do something new, it will always ruffle a feather or two.

BTW, I didnt know that Air New Zealand ordered the 7E7!

Pleasant suprise eh?

Airbus chief executive Noel Forgeard claimed the 7E7 would have
identical technology to the A380


Man.... Forgeard can make his own engineers blush!
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Guest

RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:55 am

Current composite material is unsuitable for many areas of the fuselage claimed Alain Garcia, executive vice-president of engineering. 'It's perfect for tension and fatigue, but poor for compression.'

Anyone tell this guy that we don't share all of our secrets with the free world???
 
sandiaman
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:57 am

From a Fortune article dated March 5, 2001 written by Stuart Brown
. . .
[Robert] Lafontan is vice president of engineering and product development at the [Airbus'] large-aircraft division, which is charged with designing and building the big bird, planned for entry into airline service in 2006. Calling up a chart showing the materials that will be used to build the major structures of the 555-passenger jetliner, Lafontan points to what he says was one of the most difficult decisions: to fabricate the ten-ton "wing box" from carbon composite, the same stuff the bat-shaped stealth bomber is made from. The most massive structural component of any airplane, the wing box runs through the lower fuselage, and ties the wings into the rest of the craft. It bears huge loads during takeoffs and landings, and when flying though turbulence. Carbon composite has a very attractive strength-to-weight ratio compared with traditional metal alloys. But it's tricky stuff to laminate into a massive section of an airplane's skeleton while ensuring that there are no internal defects that could cause a loss of strength over time. Think of Lafontan as a general preparing to fight one of history's all-time great battles between rival makers of people-carrying machines. The competition is also an exercise in probing the limits of gigantism, the elusive point beyond which more starts to become less. Lafontan is specifying advanced materials like carbon composite because he has no choice. "If I just try to copy the way the 747 is built," he says, "I will never achieve our goals, never." The A380 has the venerable 747 squarely in its sights and aims to carry more passengers farther, at an operating cost about 17% lower, than the Boeing flagship.
. . .
Whole article at:
http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg13630.html

 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:09 am

And now that table I promised. The first section is Boeing developments in the last 15 years or so, the second being Airbus developments during the same time period.

(Aircraft) (Launch Date) (EOS) (Development time in approx. months)

Boeing 737NG (11/17/93) (01/18/98) (50 months)
Boeing 747-400 (10/22/85) (02/09/89) (40 months)
Boeing 777-200 (10/29/90) (06/07/95) (56 months)
Boeing 777-300ER (02/29/00) (05/10/04) (51 months)
Boeing 7E7-8 (12/15/03) (03/01/08) (52 months)*+

Airbus A320 (03/01/82) (03/01/88) (72 months)
Airbus A343 (06/01/87) (03/01/93) (69 months)
Airbus A333 (06/01/87) (11/01/93) (77 months)
Airbus A346 (12/01/97) (08/01/02) (57 months)
Airbus A380 (12/19/00) (03/01/06) (64 months)*

Of course Airbus and Boeing both had smaller projects in this time as well. I chose to highlight only the major projects as these are the most signficant. For example, you will note that the A32X and 737NG derrivtives do not appear, nor do the entire 777/A330/A340 family, but rather the first development in that family.

And it would take hours to scour up every single project in the last 15 years... and they aren't really relevant anyway.

Regards,
DFW
---

*- tentativly scheduled
+- there is no firm month for 7E7 EOS, Boeing only provides 2008. But given the production slots and production rate for 2008, I guess EOS will probably be between Q1-Q2.
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S12PPL
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:27 am

Hmmmm.....I seem to remember a bunch of Airbus supporters jumping on Boeing and calling them childish for "attacking" previous new Aibus projects. Looks like a handful can't just sit back and watch Boeing's latest project. How sad. lol  Smile
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ushermittwoch
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:35 am

Funny how the meassage topic is actually distorting the things said in the article.

But anyway, since I do have some doubt about the performance that Boeing claims its new bird will have, we'll have to wait and see.

I just can't wait to fly on the A380 and the 7E7.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:38 am

Whats sad is this:

Only us Americans have replied to this post, and not one person agrees with the article.

Why sad you ask?

Just because Airbus says something that could ***gasp*** make fun of something American made, the end of the world has neared.

A valid argument one could make is that Airbus does know what they are saying. After all, as the author states, the two companies are not even competing against each other with the A380 and 7E7. Therefore, it is only reasonable to think the Airbus is only warning Boeing. After all, Airbus does use alot of composites so who are WE to say they are lying???

Again, I ask...

WHO ARE WE TO SAY THEY ARE LYING? Unless you are an engineer who involves him or herself in this work, one cant say a damn thing.  Smile

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N328KF
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:39 am

The advantage that Boeing has with composite materials will give them a huge advantage here. Military aircraft have to endure all sorts of stresses that civilian aircraft never have to worry about. I saw a documentary on the X-32 wing construction. It was pretty amazing.
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airportugal310
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:42 am

Is the whole compression thing true? Do they mean air compression or weight compression (maybe even the same thing)?

“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:45 am

Airbus might have a point, they arent stupid themselves and must know a thing or two about composites but i would imagine the statement is to keep the shareholders happy.
 
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:46 am

Take an extruded aluminum frame the diameter of the fuselage (very light weight - Think like a coin with the center drilled out) and apply the carbon composite material to the outside, bolt the frames together and you have the 7E7. That's a simple description, but that's how it will play out. The frames interlock and are sealed.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:54 am

I don't think that anyone is discounting the fact that Airbus knows what it's talking about (or at least I'm not anyways), it's just more of that typical marketing trash talk about your opponents products to 1) appease your own shareholders and build investor confidence, 2) try to sell some airplanes, and 3) try to convince the buyers that the opponents product is inferior and won't live up to proposed standards.



"'This is why Boeing has strongly discounted it to sell it.' I'm Noel Foregard and I approve this message."
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7e72004
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:56 am

Here we go again...this is getting old just like the Kerry/Bush deal..i am sick of hearing about it  Angry
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Vorticity
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:02 am

WHO ARE WE TO SAY THEY ARE LYING? Unless you are an engineer who involves him or herself in this work, one cant say a damn thing.

Well I am an engineer, though I don't work on A380 or 7E7. But I have studied composites, built composites and tested composites. They are stating their opinion that composites are not mature enough to use as extensively as Boeing plans. It's one school of thought, but it is not the only one. Substantial parts of many military aircraft are built from composites, including F/A-18 E/F, F-22, F-35, B-2, X-32, etc. Boeing has had a lot of experience especially with the X-32, F18E/F and F-22 in composites, as well as other craft such as X-45. Not to mention the composites used in other commercial aircraft such as the 777.

Composites have advantages over traditional materials, and they also have disadvantages. They mentioned repair and damage, it's true composites handle damage differently. Repairing and detecting the damage is handled differently as well. But these are not unheard of. I toured a center for non-destructive evaluation, and saw some of the methods that are used in determining defects in composites, and how they are repaired. Including blades on the Apache Helicopter, and the investigation of AA's A300, the parts of the vertical stabilizer that were composite.

In building composites, I know it can be a difficult and challenging experience sometimes. Our school created a Blended Wing Body out of carbon fiber. When making the body at NWA's facilities in Minnesota, the vacuum was not properly sealed, and $10,000 of work was immediately lost. The composites I've built by hand, have been successful sometimes, other times not. But as I said, Boeing has had lots of experience now with composites, both in success and failure. They ran into various problems with X-32, and are no stranger to the challenges they face. Therefore, I'm inclined to think that the intelligent engineers at Boeing have thought this through, and are not making any kind of ridiculous leap here.

It is a step forward though, it does present technical challenges. It rests on Boeing's shoulders now to deliver on cost, on weight and safely. The Airbus spokesman raises some good points, some other seem to be pretty competition motivated. The statement in whole is competition motivated though, no question.

(fixed spelling)

[Edited 2004-06-24 19:30:12]
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:06 am

Thanks Vorticity.

That is a good description of that. Thank you!

Flightmaster
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masseybrown
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:14 am

Advertising used to extoll the virtues of the sponsor's product and ignore the competition. No more. Microsoft demonstrated the value of trashing the other guy's product. For example, any technical advantage of the competition is portrayed as a useless and complete waste of time and money until the sponsor can counter with his own version, which is then immediately essential, invaluable and the best on the market.

Never trust absolutely one company's comment about its competitor's product.
 
worldoftui
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:25 am

Is just a war of words.
Airbus were hardly likely to come out and say "Damn the 7E7 looks good. Why didnt we think of that?"

Tit for tat. This will go on for sometime...............


Mark
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:35 am

Boeing has has a lot of experience especially with the X-32, F18E/F and F-22 in composites, as well as other craft such as X-45.

And the V-22 skins right?

Airbus might have a point, they arent stupid themselves and must know a thing or two about composites but i would imagine the statement is to keep the shareholders happy.

I agree with your conclusion of keeping the shareholders happy, I suffered through the same thing from 1999-2003 with my BA stock. Hopefully those days are over.

But in terms of Airbus engineering and composite technology, I'll say again that after trumpeting about GLARE, Airbus decided against using the material on the most stressful portions of the skin. Boeing isn't backing down from composites, in fact, they are not even persuing an aluminum alternative/back-up just in case. I take that Boeing is either- confident, stupid, bold, irrational, or all of the above in not keeping a "Plan B" so to speak.

Do they mean air compression or weight compression (maybe even the same thing)?

There are two primary forces at work. Tensile stress is the stretching force placed on some sort of object. Compression stress is what it implies, compression. Just a non-autoclaved, 10-ply graphite fabric with an epoxy resin that has been vacumed at room temperature is tremendously strong. Many homebuild aircraft and Rutan projects use this technique.

Boeing is using a much more precise and consistent manfacturing process to achieve the upmost quality possible, not your garage airplane opperation. I wouldn't be suprised if Boeing faces a major technical hurdle, but the composite construction proposed for the 7E7 is easly do-able IMO.
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MidnightMike
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:51 am


There has been work done with composites for the past 20 years, so there should not be any problems.
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Vorticity
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:55 am

Yes, the V-22 has over 43% composite structure, as well as the rotor blades.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
hz747300
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:56 am

I agree with AA777-->
Airbus should let the aircraft fail on the open market and watch customers trip over each other to order the Airbus 7E7 equivalent--the A330-200 Lite.

Why point it out now, all Colin Stuart should say now is, "anyone who orders the 7E7 will be sorry later. I can already hear our cash registers ringing when nobody likes the performance of this conceptually challenged aircraft."

Then a reporter, ideally from Reuters, should remind Colin that fighter jets made of composites that fly through a lot more stress and test the airframe a lot more than any commercial airliner and serve just fine.
Keep on truckin'...
 
MITaero
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:03 am

I worked in one of the 7E7 composites engineering groups last year. It'll be fine.
 
Tasha
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:11 am

Alpha1:

"Seems most of the "war" is being fought on the European side of the pond. Airbus is constantly trying to belittle Boeing for everything under the sun. Usually, when a company does that, it's to deflect critcism and scruitny from it's own shortcomings"

Very well stated!! If the 7e7 performs like its designed too, Airbus has lost the technological war. Besides, Boeing my have access to composites that AB does not due to its military contracts.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
F4N
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:22 am

To all:

I believe that Richard Abulafia of the Teal Group said some time ago that Airbus will begin attacking 7e7 on a number of fronts in order to try and blunt whatever success the new plane is meeting in a number of ways:

PR: Airbus has been for some time downplaying the new ship, i.e., calling it a "chinese copy" of A330, calling into question the Boeing performance figures, John Loudmouth stating he "wasn't worried" about 7e7.

Price: Airbus would aggressively cut the price on A330 and trump that the A330 was just as good and available far sooner.

Concept: See the thread article. I guess we are here now...

I would guess that the number of interested parties in 7e7(or perhaps unannounced orders Boeing may be sitting on)has the Airbus PR machine in high gear.

I guess we will fing out at Farnborough...

regards,

F4N
 
gearup
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:23 am

The defenders of the use of composite materials mention Boeing's experience in building combat aircraft and while this is a valid point, I would ask one question. Do you think that this experience is fully applicable to the design and construction of passenger aircraft? A combat aircraft is a combat aircraft! Whats the worst that can happen to a fighter with a major composite structural componant that happens to fail in a high G turn during ACM? You may lose the pilot if he/she does not manage to eject and while this is tragic, combat pilots are warriors, they know and accept the risks. Joe public who buys a ticket to visit his aunt and gets on a plane is not even aware that the aircraft he may fly on is made of metal, or plastic or whatever. He sure would not want to fly on anything if there was the slightest doubt about the durability and strength of the material it is made from. I do not think that you can always compare military and civilian aircraft that way. I think you have to be very, very sure of the integrity of composite contruction before you use it on a commercial jet. Any level of doubt about this is unacceptable. As to the original post, if you strip away the marketing rhetoric, you might find that EADS is alarmed at Boeing's plans because they genuinely don't think the technology is mature enough based of their own considerable experience, who knows? In any case I think we all wish Boeing well and success with the 7E7 program.

GU
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:24 am


I believe that Airbus (though a respectable company in my opinion) needs to give credit where credit is due or to just shut up. The 7E7 looks like a great project and both companies should focus on what they are working...which are 2 completely different projects for different markets. Let's stop the arrogant whining!!!
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Vorticity
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:40 am

Do you think that this experience is fully applicable to the design and construction of passenger aircraft?

Their military use of composites is something to build on. Yes they will be using composites in different scales, in new ways, and for new customers on commercial aircraft. Is the experience in military 100% relative, no, but it is extremely significant experience. The company now has experience in the design, construction and testing of composites. As well as operational time on actual aircraft.

I don't think military aircraft are built to less safety on the basis of a sole pilot. Military expects dependable aircraft just as much as the civilian market.

In all honesty, Airbus has no business pointing out these concerns on the basis of concern. Really, Boeing is a 50 billion dollar company that has been making aircraft for decades. I guarantee you there are engineers in Boeing that raise such concerns about the use of materials. Boeing knows how to do design trade studies, and knows how to design for safety. The only reason Airbus is mentioning this is for competitive reasons, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

Not that Boeing hasn't opened it's mouth in such ways before. I particularly remember Boeing's criticism of Airbus's production rate decisions. That's competition, companies talk the talk.

Bottom line, Boeing doesn't need to hear these concerns from Airbus, because they are well aware.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:44 am

Maybe an european conspiracy, huh?
Puhleeezee!!

Mike  Nuts
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:49 am

Whats the worst that can happen to a fighter with a major composite structural componant that happens to fail in a high G turn during ACM? You may lose the pilot if he/she does not manage to eject and while this is tragic, combat pilots are warriors, they know and accept the risks

Hmm.. what's the worst that could happen? In an F-22's case, you loose an aircraft that has a higher unit cost than an A380 with zero discounts. In the B-2's case, you loose an aircraft with a unit cost approx. half that of an aircraft carrier. They're's an incintive to keep an aircraft in one piece.

How many 9-g inverted rolls, cataplut takeoffs, and catch-wire landings do you expect the 7E7 to make? I'll remind you that Ky Tak was closed  Big grin Aviation technology historically progesses from experimental, to military, to commercial, to civilian. FBW, jet engines, hell flying in general all folow this trend. There are no indications primary composite construction will not make the military to commerical jump.

you might find that EADS is alarmed at Boeing's plans because they genuinely don't think the technology is mature enough based of their own considerable experience, who knows?

And if Boeing is wrong, who has the most to benefit... EADS perhaps? Why the benevolance toward their North American rival?
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whitehatter
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:59 am

I believe that Airbus (though a respectable company in my opinion) needs to give credit where credit is due or to just shut up.

Nobody is going to change their attitude. Selling has been like this for thousands of years..."ours is better/cheaper/prettier than his".

It's just people doing their jobs, talking up their own products and talking down the opposition. Take it all with a very large pinch of salt.

Airbus can hardly make authoritative statements on the 7E7 when it hasn't even gone into design freeze yet, so anything they are saying at the moment is just so much hot air and marketing baloney.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Areopagus
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:02 am

As I recall, when Airbus decided to build stabilizers for the A300-600 from composites, they trumpeted that they were out in front of the competition in innovation that resulted in operating efficiency. Boeing, on the other hand, poo-pooed it as premature, saying they don't put in technology for technology's sake, but only when it is well proven and known safe.

Now the shoe is on the other foot. Isn't salesmanship fun?
 
sandiaman
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:18 am

Airbus is using a composite wing box on the A380. It's hard to imagine a more critical, highly loaded, complex piece of structure than an aircraft wing box. And it is also one of the most difficult places to inspect.

If Airbus is using composites for the A380 wing box, then Airbus has got to believe the technology is mature.

Rather, I believe the disputed point is the added cost of using composites versus the benefit of using it. It has surprised many of us that the 7E7 lists at about the same for a 767--$120-130 million--while using such a high percentage of composites.

 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:25 am

Ohh C´mon, the 7E7-model is a lump of plasticbags and clay right now! Lets see what will happend to the shrinked 777 in 2008, ok?
Cheers

Mike  Big grin
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
dvk
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:29 am

Airbus also repeatedly touted the four-engine A340 as safer for trans-Pacific flight than the twin 777, that is, until the A330-200 was certified for trans-Pacific ops. Yes, both companies are competing aggressively, but the trash talk is almost always trashier from the Airbus side.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:33 am

Dyke:
X-cuse me?
Boeing is not???
Puhhhleezzzee............
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United Airline
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:34 am

They are jealous! End of story! Big grin
 
dvk
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:35 am

Who you callin a dyke?. I only have one X chromosome.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:41 am

Dvk: Oh .....sårry, my engish verri bäd!
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Gnomon
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:42 am

I know very little of any relevance about the debate over composite materials.

I will say, as a reporter for a newspaper serving 150,000 readers, that the article in the original post is extraordinarily biased and does nothing to tell Boeing's side of the issue.

As journalists, among our cardinal responsibilities is achieving a certain fairness and balance in our work. This story has no balance, and thus I don't consider it a credible basis on which to found any discussion here on its subject matter.

That's not to say I would disagree with Airbus if I knew more about the subject matter. But my advice would be not to take the article too seriously...it's not a well-written story, and those who use it to fuel this petty A vs. B debate should reconsider before embarrassing themselves in public.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Airbus- 7E7 Is Rushed And Ridiculous

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:43 am

Yes Solnabo - let's see what will happen to the shrinked 777. Lets watch it sell like hot cakes and kick major A$$.

Enough of the childish comments people.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.

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