Windshear Almost Brings Down NWA DC9...!

deltadude8 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:32 am

Earlier this morning windshear was heavy around the Kansas City International Airport...

Northwest flight 1753 (1653?) (sorry I didn't catch the number) from Detroit circled over the Kansas City area for a few hours due to weather but the decided it was okay to land...

On the 1st approach to the runway the windshear warning came on and the pilot began to encounter small microbursts....He chose to abort the approach and try again...

On the 2nd approach to the runway, the aircraft encountered the same warning but decided to fly a little longer to see how bad it was? The pilot reported feeling the wind pushing the aircraft to the side and down....He aborted the app. and decided to try again

On the 3rd approach to the runway, the aircraft again encountered the same warning though this time it was not as bad. The pilot decided he would try to touch down...about 1-2 miles out the plane encountered 30-60% lift loss and began to lose rapid altitude. The pilot for the 3rd time increased thrust to full and tried to climb out aborting his approach. The right engine overheated and needed to be set on idle for a time.

Instead of trying to make a 4th or last attempt to MCI on one good engine and one not so good shaped engine, the pilot decided to divert to Whiteman AFB. He landed there with no problems.

Passengers reported the cabin remaining calm and all pax's reported feeling the aircraft begin to be push down very violently. No injuries were reported and pax. were transported by bus back to MCI.

Pilot was quoted as being very quick to manuvour and very smart. Mult. pax stated they felt great confidence with the crew.

We are very lucky to have such great crews like this one...We are also very lucky to have not had to experience another accident like the one in Dallas Texas involving the DL L1011.

boeingpride800 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:37 am

Glad that flight was ok. I hope there's no windshear when I'm on my trip to Detroit on a NWA DC-9.

Gib · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:37 am

Wow!... WTG flight crew!

Also wasn't the US Air D93 incident/crash @ CLT a few years back windshear as well??

deltadude8 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:40 am

BoeingPride...The windshear occured in Kansas City not Detroit

MEA-707 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:44 am

Maybe it should be better if Northwest replaced these ancient DC-9s, anyone know when they will? Laugh out loud

smcmac32msn · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:45 am

GREAT JOB CREW!

Deltadude8 - Probably what he meant was he hopes that it won't happen on his flight into DTW on a NW DC9. (The same type of plane involved @ MCI.)

Spoon04 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:52 am

MEA-707, Nice try........... Better luck next time.
Cheers,
Spoon

DfwRevolution · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:57 am

Well this time they landed at the AFB on purpose

Joking aside, great job to the flight crew.. therew could have been a much worse ending

smcmac32msn · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:00 am

Well, that wraps up this weeks version of "WHATS NEW ON THE NW DC9 FRONT!", please tune in next week for the next version of this chatline. Thanks for coming!

boeingpride800 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:10 am

I know it happened in Kansas City. I was just saying I hope there is no windshear when I'm on my trip to Detroit on a NWA DC-9.

airtran737 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:13 am

Kudos to the front end crew for a job well done. Way to put safety at the top of your list.

fspilot747 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:33 am

"Maybe it should be better if Northwest replaced these ancient DC-9s"

Somehow, I don't think windshear is known to attack DC-9s and nothing else.

copter808 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:33 am

Good job on the mechanical skills (flying the airplane), not so good on the judgment though.

Sounds like one very, very lucky crew.

However, lets play the thing backward and see how it looks:

Airplane crashes with substantial loss of life and an otherwise good airframe after the pilot made 3 attempts at landing during wind shear warnings. Anyone care to guess what the NTSB finding would be? Not favorable to the pilots.

Anyway, it was a lucky crew with a good outcome after a poor decision.

lnglive1011yyz · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:58 am

Thank God for the technology to be able to identify possible wind shear, as well as the knowledge and courageous actions of the crew. Had they not been calm, collected, and well instructed, we could have been dealing with another deadly crash.

ON a lighter note, I felt compelled to mention that once again, the NWA DC-9's have made it into the headlines on this Site HAHA. I actually thought we MAY let it slide for a bit, but.. oh well Smile

GOOD news story though..

1011yyz

dl757md · Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:15 am

I have to agree with Copter808. Great job getting themselves out of position they put themselves in not once, not twice, but three times. I'm not going to outright fault the crew for doing this because I wasn't there and I'm not completely familiar with the POM windshear procedures. However IMO after the first windshear warning they should have proceeded to a suitable alternate.

We are also very lucky to have not had to experience another accident like the one in Dallas Texas involving the DL L1011.

If the crew of DL191 would have had the predictive windshear systems and training that goes with it, that the NW crew had the outcome of that flight would most likely have been successful. Also IMO there is great difference between attempting to land right after another plane successfully did so (DL191) and trying to land on your third attempt that resulted in a windshear warning at an airport that has had bad weather for a few hours.

In any event all are safe and hopefully this might add to our knowledge of how to deal with windshear.

Dl757md

InnocuousFox · Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:32 am

"I know it happened in Kansas City. I was just saying I hope there is no windshear when I'm on my trip to Detroit on a NWA DC-9."

Yeah, because we all know that windshear follows those NWA DC-9s around the country.

nwa man · Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:54 am

A few corrections -

Flight was NW1159 from MEM/SDF, not 1653 from DTW.

Glad to see that the pilots got her down and everything turned out for the best.

Regards,

N-Dub

Cubsrule · Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:28 pm

Gib- The US crash in CLT was indeed wind shear related.

flyabr · Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:10 pm

hummm...during all this time did any other planes try to land or actually land at MCI?

flymia · Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:36 pm

Good job to the flight crew. Safety is their job.

Gib · Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:57 pm

Cubsrule... TYVM for that... Age and laziness made me not research that!

Thanks Man....

Gib

flyboy36y · Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:09 pm

LOL, InoccouousFox.... that was funny.

HlywdCatft · Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:22 pm

MEA 707 you beat me to it.

I was going to make a smart ass remark like lets see the A318 or 717 perform as well as the DC-9 in that case Nuts

lamyl_hhlco · Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:43 pm

But i don't understand one thing , why did he go all the way to Whiteman AFB and he could have gone to kansas city downtown airport and land safely just miles away from MCI ? wouldnt that be closer? Downtown has enough Rw to welcome a C5 .

Lam

foxecho · Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:10 pm

THIS is why I come to this site for my information!

I was wondering why we got so many folks from NW yesterday at MCI

I only heard bits and pieces of the story. Kudos to the crew on board, and the agents who had to rebook the MEM bound pax.....thanks Deltadude8 for the information.

as for Whiteman/Downtown question, if I lost an engine I'd prefer the longer runway out at Knob Knoster rather than the 7000 footer at MKC/Downtown because if the hydraulics go you have a little more room, instead of ending up in the river...

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI

(edited for spelling)

[Edited 2004-07-10 10:17:00]

sabenapilot · Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:20 pm

Good job??? Are you nuts??? What kind of idiots does it take to make 3 approaches in severe windshear conditions?

1st approach aborted due to Windshear => try again on a different RWY.

2nd approach aborted due to Windshear => divert to alternate.

A general rule on missed approaches is that if you abort your approach twice for the same external reason, you should divert to avoid the 'THIS TIME WE LAND ANYHOW' syndrome.

lamyl_hhlco · Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:52 pm

Exactly i totally agree with you Sabena pilot , this should not be happening !
As for KCI they didnt have any hycraulic problems, one of the engine was over heated and u still can make a short field landing ....7000' of rw is way enough for a DC9, and in case of a hydraulic failure i'd go to the closest airport

IDISA · Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:26 pm

I fully agree with Sabenapilot. To be perfectly honest I think it is a pure miracle that nothing had happened. Why did the pilot made 3 attempts to land when, at the second attempt, in case of windshear, he should have diverted to another apt? Did you realize how dangerous was it all??
Is there a rule in POM which says: "pilots must always land in any weather condition"??
I don't think so... That's what makes the difference between a pilot and a captain. It is not a question of being a good pilot, I won't think there are bad pilots around..., it's a question of taking the right decisions, that's what really matter.

Regards

AirAmericaC46 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:56 pm

If Sabenapilot is correct, can someone provide us with the e-mail address of FAA authorities? and the supervisors of NW? and we can all alert them and so it won't happen again. On second thought, what is the usual aviation procedure here? Will NW and FAA investigate even if there was no accident?
Thank you for the answers.

dl757md · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:04 pm

The FAA and NW are both going to be very interested in why they had to divert to an AFB.

Cores001 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:30 pm

In my modest opinion, it looks like the pilot shouldn´t have made the third attempt, however we still don´t know what the standard procedures or protocol would say in a case like this, anybody knows?? Is a matter like this left to the judgement of the pilot in each case?? I´d like to think
that there´s a clear procedure concerning how many attempts are acceptable in a case like this one. I also like to think that pilots are reasonably conservative people when it comes to safety.

windshear · Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:15 pm

Hell no that's not true!!!

I was no where near Kansas City International Airport this morning Wink/being sarcastic

I swear I would never...

Boaz...

ltbewr · Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:34 pm

Three attempts seems very questionable. How many other a/c going into MCI didn't even make one attempt and diverted or waited it out, perhaps at their departure airport? This situation should be considered an incident by the NTSB and should be investigated. Is there a question that the weather and wind shear data was incorrect or incomplete? I'm no expert on a/c engines but when you overheat that should be enough to cause you to divert. I am not sure how far away Whitman AFB was from MCI, but if worse comes to worse, you divert and hold there for cleaner air at MCI and fly to MCI later. I would guess that 3 attempts and possible damage to the engines may have discouraged flying from the AFB to MCI. Could you imanige what the pax and pilots must have been going through! Probably a few stained seats and a few used airsick bags on that flight.

elwood64151 · Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:36 pm

instead of ending up in the river...

River, nothing. Fifteen foot (4.5m) concrete/dirt flood control levee sixty feet past the south end of the runway...

As for KCI they didnt have any hycraulic problems, one of the engine was over heated and u still can make a short field landing ....7000' of rw is way enough for a DC9, and in case of a hydraulic failure i'd go to the closest airport

KC / KMKC), USA - Missouri">MKC and MCI are only fifteen miles apart by road, roughly 12 miles apart in a straight line. KC / KMKC), USA - Missouri">MKC may have been experiencing the same weather (or worse) at this time. Johnson County Industrial Airport may have also been an option at twenty five or so miles, but Whiteman is more than fifty miles away and the likelihood of the same weather in Knob Noster as in Kansas City is unlikely, whereas anything in the KC metro might have been threatened.

JBirdAV8r · Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:24 am

I don't know if I buy that the crew tried three approaches in windshear conditions, especially such severe ones. I find that decision rather, well, dubious.

I don't know NW's policies on missed approaches (especially due to wx) so I can't comment too much. It might have been standard operating procedure, but I doubt it somehow. Flight crews are constantly urged to "stick to the schedule" and could face retribution for a divert. There might have been a check airman in the cockpit and the evaluatee might have been under pressure to complete the landing at the destination. I, however, sort of doubt the story as said.

Remember that this is obviously not first-hand information; it could be second-, third-, or even fourth-hand, so the story might have "grown" from the original.

I also find it quite remarkable that the first threads said "Kudos to the pilots!" then after Sabenapilot's remarks, the next threads said "I agree with Sabenapilot, that flight crew made a bad mistake." Such is the nature of A.net, I would suppose.

theflcowboy · Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:48 am

To anybody who says that pilots will one day be gone - take a look at this. If a robot were to do that, flight woulda been gone. Kudos to the crew.

VEEREF · Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:57 am

Depends on what the time frame between the 3 attempts was. Wouldn't make much sense to try twice in a few minutes if nothing is going to change in that time frame.Our company policy dictates only two attempts before we must divert to an alternate airport.Maybe NW allows for three. If it was an isolated cell maybe holding for awhile before the second attempt would have been better? Hard to second guess without having been there though.

dl757md · Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:02 am

I also find it quite remarkable that the first threads said "Kudos to the pilots!" then after Sabenapilot's remarks, the next threads said "I agree with Sabenapilot, that flight crew made a bad mistake." Such is the nature of A.net, I would suppose.

Actually Copter808 in reply 12 was the first to question the judgment/actions of he flight crew. He and I only lauded the crew on their performance at successfully getting themselves out of a dangerous situation that they were probably fully responsible for getting into. Great flying skills, crappy judgment.

Dl757md

FinnWings · Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:25 am

Three landing attempts in severe weather conditions and windshear doesn't sound good decision in my opinion either. Hard to criticize too much, as I wasn't on board and don't know all the circumstances. However, I agree what Sabenapilot wrote...

As I'm not yet trained for airline procedures, I was wondering the status of airline operational procedures. According to Air law pilot in command has always right to do everything what is necessary for safety even if those actions are against the regulations or air law. In that case he must have of course very good reasons to do so. What if pilot in command think that he has to broke the rules of the operational procedures of his airline. What are the consequences then? Of course this is minor action than in case of air law... Just curious how does the airline react for those actions by pilot.

Safe Flights,
FinnWings

Bruce · Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:41 am

This DC9 circled MCI for "a few hours"???? Isn't that much? How long does a plane usually circle the destination before diverting?

bruce

jeffrey1970 · Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:48 am

I think it is so funny how so many people on this website rush to judgment as to who is at fault without knowing all of the facts involved. As for me I thank God that everyone on that flight is ok.

kilroy · Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:53 am

alot of people are quick to say 3 tries and get the hell out of there. but most wind shear is associated with a front squal line or storm which is usually moving. Most of the time you wait a few mins or so then the associated weather moves on. if every time we had a wind shear and diverted to other airports right away with out trying a few times. pax would be so mad at never getting to there destinations

Thrust · Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:14 am

Wow...this is huge. This could've been a reenactment of that DL L-1011 crash at DFW due to the same thing...a microburst.

jblake1 · Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:44 am

Deltadude8 Where did you find this story? I tried google but couldn't find a news blurb.

Thanks!

flyabr · Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:46 am

i have a question...how does deltadude know about these windshear warnings...etc? plus i find it hard to believe they would circle for several hours...

smcmac32msn · Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:47 am

Deltadude8 probably hasn't seen a NWA DC-9 thread on here for a while, so he made it up.

EDIT: There is a book on the market by the name of "FINAL APPROACH" using 2 Boeing 737s in a slightly similar incident at MCI (coincidence?). If none of you have read it, I won't spoil it. Lets just say a taxiing A/C is hit by a flying A/C that got caught in a windshear. PS: One of the flight #'s in the book is amazingly 1653 (coincidence?)

[Edited 2004-07-10 21:57:00]

JetCaptain · Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:08 am

>>Earlier this morning windshear was heavy around the Kansas City International Airport

>>Posted Sat Jul 10 2004 01:32:46 UTC+1

What was the actual date this happened ? The post states "earlier this morning" and was posted Friday evening, July 9th (local time).

The weather was fine Friday morning, no windshear conditions reported in Kansas City, so it must have happened on some other date ?

KMCI 091653Z 11006KT 10SM SCT140 OVC250 26/20 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP131 T02610200
KMCI 091553Z 09008KT 10SM FEW075 BKN140 OVC250 24/19 A2990 RMK AO2 PK WND 14027/1510 RAE16 SLP116 P0000 T02390194
KMCI 091453Z 14010KT 10SM -RA FEW060 OVC140 22/19 A2994 RMK AO2 RAB30 SLP127 P0000 60000 T02170189 58021
KMCI 091353Z 15009KT 10SM SCT080 OVC140 21/19 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP143 T02110194
KMCI 091253Z 24003KT 10SM SCT080 OVC140 22/19 A3001 RMK AO2 SLP153 T02220189

JC

[Edited 2004-07-10 22:10:01]

BR715-A1-30 · Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:29 am

Kudos to the flight crew... Does anyone know what series this was (-10, -30/40/50)

deltadude8 · Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:34 am

Good Afternoon Everyone...I heard it on my local news stationg here in Kansas City last night and then came and posted...I posted the exact story that I heard on the news...I will try to find a link to the story...BRB...(i am offended that some think I would make this up...I am a little bit more mature than that...I figured someone seeing I have been a member since Feb 2000 over 4 years would have some credit here on A.NET! I love how someone who has been here 2 MONTHS is questioning my trueness...Anyone think I am being rash?)

smcmac32msn · Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:41 am

Deltadude8 - I'm not questioning your trueness, I am saying that in a FICTION book, an aircraft for North American Airlines (NAA), flight #1653, crashed at MCI in a windshear incident. Seems kind of coincindental, huh?

I am being backed up on this by the weather data posted by JetCaptain, and the fact that no news blurb can be found on this incident.

Any more bashing of me you wanna do?

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