...not really as bad as that number might seem upfront though
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- ConcordeBoy
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DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
http://custom.marketwatch.com/custom/iwon-com/news-story.asp?dateid=38187.4686226852-816062333
...not really as bad as that number might seem upfront though
...not really as bad as that number might seem upfront though
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
According to article "operating expenses increased 27,3%"...
I was just wondering how an airline can record just a high numbers if they currently are trying to get costs lower????? Even fuel prices are rising those can't alone affect that much for expenses as usually fuel costs are only about 20-30% of total expenses.
It seems that they are burning paper money in the owens of their headquarters... otherwise I just don't understand those numbers. Most of the airlines have been able to cut expenses, which is very important because yields are dropping as well. If they are going to continue this way.... rest in peace Delta...
Best Regards,
FinnWings
I was just wondering how an airline can record just a high numbers if they currently are trying to get costs lower????? Even fuel prices are rising those can't alone affect that much for expenses as usually fuel costs are only about 20-30% of total expenses.
It seems that they are burning paper money in the owens of their headquarters... otherwise I just don't understand those numbers. Most of the airlines have been able to cut expenses, which is very important because yields are dropping as well. If they are going to continue this way.... rest in peace Delta...
Best Regards,
FinnWings
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
True, the number isn't as bad as it sounds, but do note that their pre-charge loss is greater than it was in 2Q 2003.
Most airlines have been able to reduce their losses and come close to breaking even. Delta isn't. They will need some major restructuring, and soon.
Most airlines have been able to reduce their losses and come close to breaking even. Delta isn't. They will need some major restructuring, and soon.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
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- whitehatter
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
As with everything, the devil will be in the detail. There is evidence of a major money bleed in those figures before the charges, even allowing for fuel costs being higher.
Delta could be paying down some debt, but it certainly doesn't look promising. Here's hoping they can do an American and avoid Chapter 11, just for the sake of the Delta workers who stand to lose jobs.
It always strikes me as ironic that DL is contemplating canning its most efficient aircraft because of that mad pilot agreement. The 777 should be ideal for their route network, not operating with the ball and chain of ridiculously high payscales.
Delta could be paying down some debt, but it certainly doesn't look promising. Here's hoping they can do an American and avoid Chapter 11, just for the sake of the Delta workers who stand to lose jobs.
It always strikes me as ironic that DL is contemplating canning its most efficient aircraft because of that mad pilot agreement. The 777 should be ideal for their route network, not operating with the ball and chain of ridiculously high payscales.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
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- ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
It always strikes me as ironic that DL is contemplating canning its most efficient aircraft because of that mad pilot agreement. The 777 should be ideal for their route network, not operating with the ball and chain of ridiculously high payscales.
...goes back further than that:
DL would have ordered thirty+ 777s, as well as never had to put the ATL-HNL nonstop on hiatus, were it not for struggles with DALPA.
...goes back further than that:
DL would have ordered thirty+ 777s, as well as never had to put the ATL-HNL nonstop on hiatus, were it not for struggles with DALPA.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Let's not overlook the fact that it's in DL's best interest to make things look as bad as possible right now financially - THAT is how they intend to gain concessions from the pilots.
Even though there are standards to follow in accounting, a company can manipulate their figures to a certain extent, and I believe DL has managed to do that to a degree here.
Even though there are standards to follow in accounting, a company can manipulate their figures to a certain extent, and I believe DL has managed to do that to a degree here.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
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- deltadude8
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
EA CO AS...Perfectly put..I couldnt agree with you more
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
EA CO AS / Deltadude8
cooking the books puts people in jail....!!!!
Thinking DL management is cooking the books for pilot negotiations is ridiculous... you need to look at the facts... the facts state they are losing big every minute of operation... and it is mentioned for the first time that ALL stakeholders will need to be on board for the restructuring... meaning all employees will be asked for concessions... not just the pilots... it will be interesting next month when Grinstein presents the new business plan... interesting not only for DL employees... but for the entire industry...
cooking the books puts people in jail....!!!!
Thinking DL management is cooking the books for pilot negotiations is ridiculous... you need to look at the facts... the facts state they are losing big every minute of operation... and it is mentioned for the first time that ALL stakeholders will need to be on board for the restructuring... meaning all employees will be asked for concessions... not just the pilots... it will be interesting next month when Grinstein presents the new business plan... interesting not only for DL employees... but for the entire industry...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Some of the details from Delta's official earnings release regarding operating expenses; excluding the various settlement charges, etc., operating expenses are heading in the right direction:
"Operating expenses for the June 2004 quarter increased 27.3 percent from the June 2003 quarter and unit costs increased 9.7 percent. Year-over-year comparisons are impacted by the non-cash settlement charge related to the defined benefit pension plan for pilots recorded in the June 2004 quarter and by government reimbursements under the Appropriations Act that were recorded as an offset to operating expenses in the June 2003 quarter.
Excluding the settlement charge and the prior year government reimbursements, operating expenses for the June 2004 quarter increased 10.5 percent from the corresponding period in the prior year. Fuel expense increased 53.8 percent, or $234 million, with almost 70 percent of the increase resulting from higher fuel prices. Excluding the settlement charge and the prior year government reimbursements, consolidated system unit costs decreased 4.9 percent and mainline unit costs decreased 6.6 percent. Excluding these items, fuel price neutralized unit costs3,4 for the consolidated system decreased 9.1 percent and mainline fuel price neutralized unit costs decreased 11.0 percent.
Delta’s Profit Improvement Initiatives continued to show considerable progress in the quarter. Excluding the settlement charge, prior year government reimbursements and fuel expenses, Delta’s mainline operating expenses were up only 2.2 percent despite a 16.0 percent increase in capacity.5"
"Operating expenses for the June 2004 quarter increased 27.3 percent from the June 2003 quarter and unit costs increased 9.7 percent. Year-over-year comparisons are impacted by the non-cash settlement charge related to the defined benefit pension plan for pilots recorded in the June 2004 quarter and by government reimbursements under the Appropriations Act that were recorded as an offset to operating expenses in the June 2003 quarter.
Excluding the settlement charge and the prior year government reimbursements, operating expenses for the June 2004 quarter increased 10.5 percent from the corresponding period in the prior year. Fuel expense increased 53.8 percent, or $234 million, with almost 70 percent of the increase resulting from higher fuel prices. Excluding the settlement charge and the prior year government reimbursements, consolidated system unit costs decreased 4.9 percent and mainline unit costs decreased 6.6 percent. Excluding these items, fuel price neutralized unit costs3,4 for the consolidated system decreased 9.1 percent and mainline fuel price neutralized unit costs decreased 11.0 percent.
Delta’s Profit Improvement Initiatives continued to show considerable progress in the quarter. Excluding the settlement charge, prior year government reimbursements and fuel expenses, Delta’s mainline operating expenses were up only 2.2 percent despite a 16.0 percent increase in capacity.5"
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
They will need some major restructuring, and soon.
There will be an announcement sometime August 1st and August 31st regarding the "New Delta".
There will be an announcement sometime August 1st and August 31st regarding the "New Delta".
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
EA CO AS / Deltadude8
cooking the books puts people in jail...
No, really? You don't say?
Thanks, but I'm talking about taking special one-time charges for things like aircraft retirement, etc. Things aren't part of the "normal" day to day operations of the carrier, but management can elect to show in the financial results at the time that most benefits the company.
cooking the books puts people in jail...
No, really? You don't say?
Thanks, but I'm talking about taking special one-time charges for things like aircraft retirement, etc. Things aren't part of the "normal" day to day operations of the carrier, but management can elect to show in the financial results at the time that most benefits the company.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
I guess that now United has more unrestricted cash than Delta?
-WGW2707
-WGW2707
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
It's not really a matter of choosing when to report things to make the financial statements appear as certain way so much as certain things can be done at certain times to make the company's financial performance at least appear to be better/worse.
And it's not illegal or a violation of accepted accounting practices.
And it's not illegal or a violation of accepted accounting practices.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
It's not really a matter of choosing when to report things to make the financial statements appear as certain way so much as certain things can be done at certain times to make the company's financial performance at least appear to be better/worse.
Thank you for putting it far better than I did!
Anyway, odds are that DL has spun their Q2 statement to look more dire than things really are. It makes the doom and gloom easier to sell to the employee groups, and therefore makes concessions easier to get.
Thank you for putting it far better than I did!
Anyway, odds are that DL has spun their Q2 statement to look more dire than things really are. It makes the doom and gloom easier to sell to the employee groups, and therefore makes concessions easier to get.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
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- isitsafenow
- Posts: 3413
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Thats 20 million bucks a day, folks....Cant hold out too much longer with numbers like that...
safe
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
The local ATL news just aired and they had a GSU(Ga State Univ) Profeesor on and he stated Chp 11 was pretty much gonna happen at DL, as much as nobody wanted to see it happen. The news then went on to say traffic at ATL should not be impacted by DL when they file Chp 11!!!!!!!!!! Good lord...............
S
S
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
If you read the results fully, you will see that DAL had a positive cash flow of 57 million from June 04 quarter. It is only mentioned in one sentence. Positive cash flow was a good thing last time I checked. I agree with EA CO AS. All of the non cash losses really make thing worse than they might be.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
EA CO AS:
While you are correct, it is a double edged sword. IF (and I don't know) Delta wanted to make the results look bad to strengthen their negotiating position, it came back to bite them at about 5 pm this afternoon.
S & P downgraded Delta's bonds to effective junk. This makes borrowing money considerably more expensive, and since Delta's CEO has said the debt has to be renegotiated, it puts them in a nasty bind (and Delta has a lot of debt).
What they may gain on the roundabouts (wage concessions) they may lose on the swings (higher interest rates).
So, on the whole, I think the picture they presented today was probably close to the actual truth.
cheers
mariner
While you are correct, it is a double edged sword. IF (and I don't know) Delta wanted to make the results look bad to strengthen their negotiating position, it came back to bite them at about 5 pm this afternoon.
S & P downgraded Delta's bonds to effective junk. This makes borrowing money considerably more expensive, and since Delta's CEO has said the debt has to be renegotiated, it puts them in a nasty bind (and Delta has a lot of debt).
What they may gain on the roundabouts (wage concessions) they may lose on the swings (higher interest rates).
So, on the whole, I think the picture they presented today was probably close to the actual truth.
cheers
mariner
aeternum nauta
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- freshlove1
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Creative accounting was used here i'm sure. I believe they will use any option to make it look worse then it is. Trying to get concessions from the employees, if needed, will be fun i'm sure. It's B.S they want you to work for $6.50 an hour in a specialized industry. I'd make more at B.K and i'd get free food.."Hello sir, would you like extra cheese on that today?" Working for an airline is becomming a joke and thats really to bad because it really is a fun job, but I guess people can only take so much before they get sick of the lies.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Mariner
I agree... While bending reporting rules is an acceptable practice... I don't think DL management would do this.... as evidence with their now Junk rating... It is going to be very hard for DL to pull through this one without concessions from all employees... It is just not worth false reporting for employee negotiations... Management knows this will bite you in the ass sooner or later... so they don't do it....Dls predicament is a long time in the making... Grinstein has been here before... and the employees will be forced to make concessions or Grinstein WILL declare bankruptcy... and get further concessions anyway.... bummer I know but this is the reality..
I agree... While bending reporting rules is an acceptable practice... I don't think DL management would do this.... as evidence with their now Junk rating... It is going to be very hard for DL to pull through this one without concessions from all employees... It is just not worth false reporting for employee negotiations... Management knows this will bite you in the ass sooner or later... so they don't do it....Dls predicament is a long time in the making... Grinstein has been here before... and the employees will be forced to make concessions or Grinstein WILL declare bankruptcy... and get further concessions anyway.... bummer I know but this is the reality..
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
When the pilots at Delta make on average 30% more than the pilots of other major carriers flying the same iron...here is your problem.
The greatest cost of an airline is the employees that run it.
The pilots won't budge on their salaries...the airline will fail. Then they won't have a salary to worry about.
The greatest cost of an airline is the employees that run it.
The pilots won't budge on their salaries...the airline will fail. Then they won't have a salary to worry about.
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- uadc8contrail
- Posts: 1666
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
When the pilots at Delta make on average 30% more than the pilots of other major carriers flying the same iron...here is your problem.
The greatest cost of an airline is the employees that run it.
The pilots won't budge on their salaries...the airline will fail. Then they won't have a salary to worry about.
goomba,
when you post "the greatest cost of an airline is the employees that run it"
are you refering to management???i hope so, dl like ua has had bad management for years. remember that mangament"upper"has contracts in place like all the other unionized employees and the pilots are only following what the glenns,jerrys and gordons have been doing, only problem is the pilots think they are upper management.
The greatest cost of an airline is the employees that run it.
The pilots won't budge on their salaries...the airline will fail. Then they won't have a salary to worry about.
goomba,
when you post "the greatest cost of an airline is the employees that run it"
are you refering to management???i hope so, dl like ua has had bad management for years. remember that mangament"upper"has contracts in place like all the other unionized employees and the pilots are only following what the glenns,jerrys and gordons have been doing, only problem is the pilots think they are upper management.
Bus Driver
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
EA CO AS:
While you are correct, it is a double edged sword. IF (and I don't know) Delta wanted to make the results look bad to strengthen their negotiating position, it came back to bite them at about 5 pm this afternoon.
S & P downgraded Delta's bonds to effective junk. This makes borrowing money considerably more expensive, and since Delta's CEO has said the debt has to be renegotiated, it puts them in a nasty bind (and Delta has a lot of debt).
Excellent point, Mariner. Personally, I think DL was hoping that the overall state of the industry right now would enable them to have their Q2 report "blend into the crowd" in hopes of having numbers bad enough to wring concessions from the employee groups, but not enough to have their bond rating hit the way it was.
It's evident their gambit failed, at least in part.
Then again, perhaps they were taking that into consideration as well? It's possible that the increased cost of borrowing with their current debt rating would still be less than the amount of the concessions they're attempting to gain.
While you are correct, it is a double edged sword. IF (and I don't know) Delta wanted to make the results look bad to strengthen their negotiating position, it came back to bite them at about 5 pm this afternoon.
S & P downgraded Delta's bonds to effective junk. This makes borrowing money considerably more expensive, and since Delta's CEO has said the debt has to be renegotiated, it puts them in a nasty bind (and Delta has a lot of debt).
Excellent point, Mariner. Personally, I think DL was hoping that the overall state of the industry right now would enable them to have their Q2 report "blend into the crowd" in hopes of having numbers bad enough to wring concessions from the employee groups, but not enough to have their bond rating hit the way it was.
It's evident their gambit failed, at least in part.
Then again, perhaps they were taking that into consideration as well? It's possible that the increased cost of borrowing with their current debt rating would still be less than the amount of the concessions they're attempting to gain.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
What is the pilots argument for making more than say AA pilots?
I'm sure they must have some defense. To the uninformed observer looking from the outside, it appears the pilots are being unreasonable by not taking a pay cut that puts them at par with AA.
I'm sure they must have some defense. To the uninformed observer looking from the outside, it appears the pilots are being unreasonable by not taking a pay cut that puts them at par with AA.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
I don't really think much about the DL executives on Mahogany Row and what they make.
I do know that DL pilots are the highest paid pilots for any U.S. based major carrier. The Delta pilots have been unwilling to take the necessary pay cuts like the rest of the major carriers pilots have in order to keep the airline afloat.
As they continue to make on average 30% more than the rest of their colleagues flying for AA, US, UA, NW, and CO...they do nothing put continue to put the airline in jeopardy.
If DL could recognize even a 15% to 20% return of pilot salaries to their bottom line, it would help them dramatically. Would it solve all the airline's financial problems? NO! Would it be a drastic step in the right direction? ABSOLUTELY!
I have no skin in the game here. I don't work in the airline industry, I am not a pilot. I just know that DL pilots are making a lot more money compared to the rest of the pilots of the major carriers and without their concessions....they only facilitate running the airline into the ground.
I do know that DL pilots are the highest paid pilots for any U.S. based major carrier. The Delta pilots have been unwilling to take the necessary pay cuts like the rest of the major carriers pilots have in order to keep the airline afloat.
As they continue to make on average 30% more than the rest of their colleagues flying for AA, US, UA, NW, and CO...they do nothing put continue to put the airline in jeopardy.
If DL could recognize even a 15% to 20% return of pilot salaries to their bottom line, it would help them dramatically. Would it solve all the airline's financial problems? NO! Would it be a drastic step in the right direction? ABSOLUTELY!
I have no skin in the game here. I don't work in the airline industry, I am not a pilot. I just know that DL pilots are making a lot more money compared to the rest of the pilots of the major carriers and without their concessions....they only facilitate running the airline into the ground.
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- StearmanNut
- Posts: 344
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Maybe DL better return to its roots and start crop dusting again. At the least, they made money in those days.
If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
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- uadc8contrail
- Posts: 1666
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RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
I don't really think much about the DL executives on Mahogany Row and what they make.
I do know that DL pilots are the highest paid pilots for any U.S. based major carrier. The Delta pilots have been unwilling to take the necessary pay cuts like the rest of the major carriers pilots have in order to keep the airline afloat.
goomba,
i agree that dalpa needs a wake up call, and now wud be the right time for that, but....there needs to be a fundmental change starting at jerrys desk and working its way down. until that happens they are no better than ual.jerry is dealing with a hard headed union and a mismanaged airline. ual had 2 idiot unions to deal with(alpa, iam-now amfa)prior to a trip to judge genes courtroom of comedy
I do know that DL pilots are the highest paid pilots for any U.S. based major carrier. The Delta pilots have been unwilling to take the necessary pay cuts like the rest of the major carriers pilots have in order to keep the airline afloat.
goomba,
i agree that dalpa needs a wake up call, and now wud be the right time for that, but....there needs to be a fundmental change starting at jerrys desk and working its way down. until that happens they are no better than ual.jerry is dealing with a hard headed union and a mismanaged airline. ual had 2 idiot unions to deal with(alpa, iam-now amfa)prior to a trip to judge genes courtroom of comedy
Bus Driver
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Agreed that Jerry on down need to do the same as the pilots; however, the real financial justification here is with the pilots.
RE: DL Posts $1.96B Loss For Q2
Jerry is now using the same language he was using while he was at Western...
He has said on several occasions that "ALL the stakeholders of DL will have an equal share of the cost cutting"... meaning if the pilots are having to take a paycut... then the rest of DL employees/management will share in that paycut...
He has also said that DL will be reinventing itself once again... meaning the company as you know it today will cease to exist...
These statements are almost word for word what he told Western employees back in the early 80s...
[Edited 2004-07-21 19:57:06]
He has said on several occasions that "ALL the stakeholders of DL will have an equal share of the cost cutting"... meaning if the pilots are having to take a paycut... then the rest of DL employees/management will share in that paycut...
He has also said that DL will be reinventing itself once again... meaning the company as you know it today will cease to exist...
These statements are almost word for word what he told Western employees back in the early 80s...
[Edited 2004-07-21 19:57:06]
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
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