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EZYAirbus
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BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:05 am

Hi I work at LHR for BA, work in a workshop 200 yards from 27L runway, everytime a BA plane arrives it never uses its reverse thrust yet every other airline does, can somebody tell me why??

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
SegmentKing
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:10 am

they could just throw it in idle reverse... that provides some help. But using purely breaking action is about as expensive as the fuel you burn spoolin up the motors...

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:16 am

I'm positive its a noise reduction thing, possibly to meet noise level stipulations made to get approval for T5 and the new runway.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:36 am

Surely if it was noise related wouldnt they get all the other airlines to do it?

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:41 am

Dont think BAA can lean on the other airlines as much to make an effort re. the noise reduction thing. As i understand it there is a noise index, and planning permission revolves around noise levels, up to and including pricing for property to be bought to make room for the runway - how noisy it is affects the compensation etc. BA cutting down the noise will speed up the process etc - but BA are the only airline that BAA can lean on.

Could be total rubbish but thats my slant.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:42 am

I think they do but not until further down the runway. It's all to do with BA being a 'good neighbour'. I'm sure one of the BA insiders on the board will give you the full details.
 
geoffm
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:04 am

Certainly did use reverse thrust last time I landed... BA 777, although slightly over a year ago now.

Geoff M.
 
9V-SPJ
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:49 am

Same with SQ, on all the flights I have been on with them, they have never used reverse thrust at SIN.

9V-SPJ
 
Azul320
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:07 am

I'm guessing it's performance related
No roaring noises onboard, makes the landing seem smooth and quiet.
JetBlue never uses the reverse thrust either.
Excuse me, while I kiss the sky
 
boysteve
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:45 am

Personally I think that ChrisBA777ER has the right idea. The noise pollution contours (I think that's the correct term) used to measure noise pollution from an airport are a collective measure of all aircraft noise at a given point or period in time. Last time I checked BA had 42% of all landing slots at LHR and so can make a significant difference themselves to noise pollution. BAA cannot lean on any other airline quite so much. If BA think a third runway at LHR is in their favour then it's a done deal!
 
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Crosswind
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:13 am

It is a noise-reducing measure, but far more importantly it saves airlines money...

Modern carbon-brakes on aircraft are much more durable than previous generations of aircraft brakes, as well as having much better thermal properties, making them much more efficient and effective at slowing the aircraft down.

On the other hand airlines are being much more careful about how they treat their engines because of the implications in maintenance costs. Using reverse-thrust beyond idle on landing, not only increases fuel burn, but it places additional strain on the engine - increasing wear-and-tear. So maintenance costs are increased, and reliability is potentially reduced due to the additional strain placed on the engine.

For all the noise and cost of using reverse-thrust beyond idle on landing, it really only has a small retarding effect when compared to the wheel-brakes.

Reverse-thrust is something of a relic from a bygone age, the days of engines roaring on landing as engines are revved up to high power settings as they blast air forwards. Most airlines have adopted "idle-only" reverse thrust on landing except for performance/safety reasons as an SOP. Most airpots request that airlines avoid the use of reverse-thrust beyond idle consistent with the safe operations of the aircraft on noise grounds, but they cannot force airlines to comply.

It would save even more money not to deploy the reversers at all - however by deploying them at idle-thrust they are available very quickly should a sudden, unexpected need arise to stop the aircraft quickly.

Going back several years, Airbus canvassed airlines about not fitting thrust reversers on the A3XX (now A380) as they are not really required for performance reasons, plus they add weight and cost, both in terms of maintenance and increased fuel burn. The final decision taken to include them, as they can still prove usful additional breaking in adverse weather conditions for example.

On aircraft like the EMB-145 reverse-thrusters are optional extras, British Airways chose not to have them fitted to theirs as they didn't have any plans to use them into airports which would require their use for performance reasons. The BAE146/RJ which are known for their impressive short-field performance have never been fitted with thrust-reversers!

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:17 am

Crosswind, some great info there, thanks for that!

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
babybus
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:22 am

I know recently I came into LHR really early on a BA 777 and the capt announced that they couldn't use reverse thrust to stop as it was forbidden until after 6am, ie: expect a long roll and a lot of brakes.

We also had to wait to be towed to the gate as the engines had to be turned off or down to prevent the engine noise waking the neighbours around T4.

I don't remember any other airline doing this no matter what time of the day it is, especially that thing of being towed to the gate.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
jc2354
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:31 am

A lot of it depends where along the runway, they will exit.

For one airline, it may be more convenient to exit onto a taxiway at midfield, and the next airline might want to exit towards the end of the runway. All within the restraints of ATC, of course. ATC might want you off the runway as soon as possible to accommodate other traffic.

For example, at LHR, especially using the 27s for landing, if your gate is in Terminal One, you will want to exit the runway as soon as possible in order to shorten your taxi time. Whereas, if your gate was at the end of Terminal Three, you would want to exit the runway further down.

IND is a great example. Depending on where you exit the runway, you could face a very, VERY long taxi to the terminal.

Regards, Jack
If not now, then when?
 
Ken777
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:05 am

I can't remember if reverse thrust was used on my last early morning landing at LHR (QF from SIN), but we did have to wait for the tow.
 
GBOAF
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:02 am

EZYAirbus...

See last week's BA news ..

BA are involved in government trials regarding noise and emmisions.

I'm sure it has a lot to do wih it!

Cheers, G-BOAF
Who cares enough to make the world half as big by flying twice as fast? We care!
 
trijetfan1
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:55 pm

I find it impossible in FS to land without thrust reversers.
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:55 pm

Air North and ZIP use the reverse on their 732s at YXY, When they put on the buckets I can here them from here. A jet roar in the backround every now and then never hurt anyone. Plus it makes landing more fun.



CanadianNorth
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scbriml
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:47 pm

I know recently I came into LHR really early on a BA 777 and the capt announced that they couldn't use reverse thrust to stop as it was forbidden until after 6am, ie: expect a long roll and a lot of brakes.

We also had to wait to be towed to the gate as the engines had to be turned off or down to prevent the engine noise waking the neighbours around T4.


This is standard practice at LHR early in the morning. It's so frustrating - most of the flights from the Middle East arrive early. It's great when you land 30 mins ahead of schedule, then it boils your brain when you have to wait 40 minutes "for a tractor to tow us to the stand" as one captain put it!  Angry
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BA777
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:10 pm

Yep thats the Night Noise Stop by T4, how long has that been around?

Henry
 
POSITIVE RATE
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BA Reverse Thrust

Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:24 pm

Man that's crap if BA have to do that. Airports are supposed to be noisy places and now they aren't even allowed to use reverse thrust? That's crazy. I love it when they go to FULL reverse in a 744 and the whole airport trembles- it's great!
 
je89_w
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:44 pm

Only once when I landed in IST on a TK A343 was there no reverse. Other than that, the landings I've been through, even SIN, was nice, short, and hard.
 
British767
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:30 pm

BA certainly did use it when I landed in a 767, 747 and A320 before!! They were all last year so maybe this is something new?
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:45 pm

I know that reverse is used at AKL, all the windows start to shatter in the viewing deck when a 747 reverses.
Everytime I have been on a 744 or 747, there has always been reverse thrust upon landing, no matter what time of day it was. (mind you, I have never landed at LHR so I wouldnt know about that)
 
bar032
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:42 pm

...everytime a BA plane arrives it never uses its reverse thrust...

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Photo © Mike Moores


Are you really sure?
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pilot kaz
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:51 pm

Bar032,

Question. Do you work at LHR, There everyday, 200 yards from the RWY?

Glenn has a point, when at LHR i do notice this also. Just because there is a Picture with RT does not mean every plane does it.
-
 
CPH-R
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:33 pm

Don't forget there's a difference between idle reverse and full reverse. Idle reverse is used a lot these days, as the air that rushes through the engine helps slows it down.

The above picture might have been a case of idle reverse.
 
speedbudgie
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:20 pm

Interestingly enough, I flew VS001 LHR-EWR yesterday and the aircraft did not use reverse thrust when landing at Newark. I know that they often do not at LHR, but had never experienced that in the US before.
AA AC AF AS BA CO CJ EI HP IB IT LH LX NW QX TG TK TW U2 UA US VS VY WN
 
bar032
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:56 pm

Question. Do you work at LHR, There everyday, 200 yards from the RWY?

Glenn has a point, when at LHR i do notice this also. Just because there is a Picture with RT does not mean every plane does it.


No! I do not work there!

But obviously some BA a/c do reverse and I agree with CPH-R, it may be idle reverse.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
 
Dehowie
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:26 pm

Interesting information.
Is it BA's policy to also not use reverse when its raining??
Sounds like they should read the accident report into the QF accident at Bangkok.
Most people will then very rapidly change there mind about how much money it saves to not use reverse.
Very interesting reading for the accountants.
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willo
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:42 pm

Is it BA's policy to also not use reverse when its raining??
Sounds like they should read the accident report into the QF accident at Bangkok.


We wouldn't expect to experience the same intensity of rainfall as Bangkok here in the UK.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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BA No Reverse Thrust

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:02 am

To me it would feel unnatural to land in an airliner without using reverse thrust. It's something you get accustomed to feeling- the wheels hit and then alsmot instaneously the reverse comes on and you feel the deceleration and hear the engines roar! Every landing i've ever been on in an airliner has used reverse and FULL most of the time too. The most extreme was landing at LAX in an AA DC-10-30 in '99- it felt like i was actually hanging off my seatbelt. Now that was fun.
 
access-air
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:21 am

The only time that I have ever not had thrust reverse used on jet besides my flights on BAe146s is When I flew over to England in 2002 and took part in the special BAC One Eleven day down in Bournemouth and flew on G-AZMF. Upon touchdown I was hoping to hear an earth shattering use of thrust reverse but to my utter disappointment no reverse was used. My guess that it was due to the fact that the Stage 2 hush kits only ("silenced" HAHA) rear of the cascade reverer vanes therefore subjecting the poor residents of Bournemouth to a Stage 1 thunderous roar.....Such a disappointment.

My flight and landing into LHR from O'Hare we most certianly used thrust reverse on landing. Even on my "domestic"leg from CDG back to LHR in the 757 we used reverse. Otherwise every Jet flight I have been on has used it...
If the plane needs it I think its a good idea to use it. Iknow at O'Hare they use it because they ususally have several airplanes planes bearing down on them and they need to slow down and vacate the runway ASAP.
If they dont need to use it then they shouldnt.
Using it can also be determined on how far down the runway they touchdown..if they float and use up alot of runway..then it might be called for.
Every landing is different.
At an airport like Chicago Midway they soemtimes deploy the buckets before the mains hit as they are only playing with a mile of runway....and not much more....If they were not needed....they would not have been built into the design.

Access-Air
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SpeedbirdHeavy
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:45 am

I'll be flying into LHR tomorrow on a BA 747-400. I'll let you know if reverse thrust is used or not.
China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
EZYAirbus
Topic Author
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:48 am

Hey what time you arrive at LHR tomorrow? Im working tomorrow, runways in use for landing will be 27L up til 3pm though then its 27R

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
mikeyCpvd
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:50 am

At an airport like Chicago Midway they soemtimes deploy the buckets before the mains hit as they are only playing with a mile of runway....and not much more....If they were not needed....they would not have been built into the design.

Say what now? I thought the operation of TR's were dependant upon a squat switch or something similar. Same way the ground spoilers automatically deploy when in the 'armed' detent only after wheel spin-up. I would think that would drastically cripple the performance of a landing aircraft if, not only the forward thrust was eliminated, but diverted outwards and in the opposite direction. MDW's main runways are only 500-600 feet shorter than PVD's main runway and I've never heard or witnessed any nutty procedures like that. And we have seen weekly A310, A330 and L1011 flights in summers past and present.
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SpeedbirdHeavy
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:08 am

Hey what time you arrive at LHR tomorrow? Im working tomorrow, runways in use for landing will be 27L up til 3pm though then its 27R

It's a 1:05PM arrival from PHX. If it's 27L, then I can see Concorde Alpha Bravo as I am sitting on the left side of the aircraft. Good to know that it won't be as long a taxi to T4 as well.

China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
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Crosswind
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:33 am

Just to clarify, and repeat a couple of points;
British Airways always use reverse thrust on landing, however only idle reverse-thrust is used unless circumstances dictate otherwise.

Most airlines have adopted "idle-only" reverse thrust on landing except for performance/safety reasons as an SOP.

Most airpots request that airlines avoid the use of reverse-thrust beyond idle consistent with the safe operations of the aircraft on noise grounds, but they cannot force airlines to comply.

It would save even more money not to deploy the reversers at all - however by deploying them at idle-thrust they are available very quickly should a sudden, unexpected need arise to stop the aircraft quickly... they can still prove usful additional breaking in adverse weather conditions, for example.


Regards
CROSSWIND
 
carduelis
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:05 am

If you land on 27L, Concorde Alpha Bravo will be on your right, located alongside the other end of 05/23, close to the beginning of 27R.

Bon voyages!


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
american762
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:50 pm

On BA Concorde JFK-LHR back in 02, I know for a fact that we used reverse thrust as soon as we were wheels down. Interesting that despite noise regulations, Reverse Thrust was ALWAYS allowed on Concorde landing at LHR...someone correct me if I am wrong.
Pan Am has a place of its' own. You call it the world, we call it home.
 
SpeedbirdHeavy
Posts: 414
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RE: BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:51 am

Well, we landed on 27R at 12:35 and did the aforementioned idle-reverse. No problem stopping whatsoever. Is that policy now at Heathrow for BA?

One sad thing happened as we were pulling into the gate at T4. The gentleman sitting across the aisle from me went into full cardiac arrest. I left the plane before I knew what the final outcome was, so I don't know if he pulled through. It didn't look good though. We were seated upstairs too. Not the ideal logistical position. So, if anyone knows what eventually happened, please post.

However, the 2 Flight Attendants went into action immediately. They should be commended. They worked feverishly until the medics arrived 10 minutes later. They administered CPR and worked the defibrulators. I was extremely impressed. I need to write a letter to BA. The airline should know about their professionalism! I will never look at a BA Flight Attendant the same way again. They can do a hell of a lot more than serve dinner and drinks.
China Airlines...Come fry with us!

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