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LRGT
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:16 am

Compare a 10-abreast 3-4-3 777 to a 9-abreast 2-5-2...for a pax standpoint they can barely tell that the seat is smaller and forget the awkward 5 middle seats...plus it looks like a 747! Isn't the 777 is just 6 inches narrower or something!
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
ckfred
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:17 am

Let me throw out another crackpot idea. What about AA buying 717s? I know that AA returned all of TW's 717s, but that was due to high lease rates and before the decision to retire the Fokker fleet.

I have thought that AA would be more interested in the 737-700 as the Fokker replacement, although it would have around 108 seats in the MRTC configuration, about 20 more than the F100.

Add to the reasoning that, except for the former TW fleet, the MD-80s range from 13 to 21 years in age. The 737-800s range in age from 3 to 5 years old. AA doesn't get rid of planes quickly, but it doesn't do like NW and try to see how long it can keep an aircraft type. So even though MD-80s pilots could fly the 717, they probably would be a number of years in which a 717 fleet would be by itself, due to the MD-80 retirement.

On the other hand, Boeing is probably willing to give AA a deal to sell or lease some 717s, although not as good the the original MD-80 deal. And AA does need a mainline jet that can fly 250 to 1200 statute miles. And if AA is inclined to get a few extra years out of each MD-80, before replacing it with a 737NG, than buying or leasing 717s does make more sense.

 
flyabr
Topic Author
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:21 am

i suspect that the br715 could easily be upgraded to handle the 713. but i wonder where they'd put the additional fuel tanks so that it could fly transcontinental...? i'm sure airtran would have loved to stay with one type of aircraft instead of adding an additional type which only serves to up costs for the airline. it seems plain and simple to me that boeing doesn't want a transcon capable 717 derivative...either that or it simply can't be done on the current airframe...?
 
LRGT
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:32 am

The MD-90 DID have a long range version capable of transcon.

AA is interesting, thanks Ckfred.

AA has been ACQUIRING (for $2M/each I don't blame them when a -800 is $50M and only burns a little less fuel) MD80's over the past few years (in conjunction with 737-800s to replace the old 3-holers) and now their fleet has exploded to 300 or something crazy like that. My guess is AA is going to keep them around for a LONG TIME like NW did with their DC9's (now lets never speak of that again...I don't want to talk about THAT for the 1,000,000th time). Eventually they will need to be replaced and most likely with the 737-800s or (737-1100 by then!). If they don't want to have all of their pilots transfer to the -800 or whatever 737 there will be in 10 years ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ if they have 300 MD's) they could maybe threaten Boeing to take their order for 300 a/c to Airbus if they don't make the MD-90 (717-300?). I think that is far down the road though since those MD-80s can just be overhauled and overhauled until they are 50 years old. Maybe if they have 300 of them we would finally see a re-engining programme bigger than UPS's 727's in about 10 years. That takes a bit of design work but for 300 a/c it is well worth it. Delta passed on such a programme for the 737-200's but they only had 50 of them and the -200 is not worth saving like the MD-80s are.
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
flyabr
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:33 am

lrgt,

i'd bet that almost all of AA's additional md80s came from the acquisition of TWA. does anyone know for sure that they've been scooping up used md80s elsewhere...?

as for pilot salaries...does anyone know if an md80 captain makes the same as a 738 captain at AA?? i simply can't see pilot wages as a reason for AA to push boeing into producing an md80 sized 717 derivative...
 
D950
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:41 am

AA still has some ex TW and ex Reno equipment stored @ Roswell. Spare parts ?? I don't know but they are there. If you check out hello.ch you will see one of the most glowing tributes to the MD90 ever by an airline.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
LRGT
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:45 am

If they have 300 MD-80s they better have about 20 for spare parts!
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
777ER
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:07 am

Last month Air New Zealand ordered 8 B777-200ERs with 36 options from the B777 family
As mentioned before, with 36 options, you have to wonder how many will be firmed up.


When NZ made the announcement for the purchase of the B7E7s and B772ERs the airline said that they are keen on expanding their passengers and FREIGHT operations. Maybe the airline might consider a B777 freighter if they are produced. The airline also said that they will also expand their routes with the orders and options

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D950
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:13 am

My best guess was that between the Reno and TW there were at least that many, along with ex SAS D9-40's
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
wjcandee
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:40 am

Someone commented that they hadn't seen an all-coach 717.

I believe that the Turkmenistan 717s are all-coach.

All the best,

Bill
 
elwood64151
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:01 am

I think hell will freeze over before WN gets a non-737! If they wanted something on the 717 class, I assure you they would get a 737-600.

Careful! WN almost switched to MD-80s in the early '80s. MDD offered WN basically the same offer that eventually go AA to take up the MD-80. Boeing offered a slightly sweetened deal on the 737-300, and so they stayed a 737 operator.

Should DL replace some of its RJ routes to mainline; they could possibly look into the 717 for routes too small for their 732s.

While I don't doubt the 717 could be a 732 replacement, as I recall, they are approximately the same size (within 5-10 seats).

nonetheless i'd love to see a major pickup the 712 and then demand a 713 to go along with it

I'd also like to see this!  Big grin

But I don't see it happening unless AA starts looking for a single type to replace both F.100s and MD-80s, without major crew re-training... Even then, they'd need a HGW version of the 713, since some of those MD-80s fly routes over 2000nm...

I would like to see that but isn't that a MD-90 which Boeing dumped because it was too close in size to the 737NGs?

Yes, it is similar in size to the 73G but no, it is not the MD-90. The MD-90 and MD-95/717 are two different aircraft. The current 717-200 is equivalent to the MD-95-30. The 717-300 (proposed) would be similar to the already-engineered MD-95-50.

if a 717-200 airline who does not want to put a 737-800 on their certificate because of the cost and complexity of two types

The 713 would not compete with the 738. The 717-200 competes indirectly with the 736/A318. The 717-300 would compete indirectly with the 73G/A319.

The 717-300 would have been an MD90 with Rolls Royce in lieu of V2500

No, no, no, NO!!! The 717 and MD-90 are two completely different aircraft. As I said before, the MD-90 was an MD-80 extension. The 717-300 would be an extension of the MD-95 program, which is a DC-9 extension. I realize that doesn't seem like a significant difference, but when you consider weight, wing, and other factors, it makes a HUGE difference in performance!

Hell, WN would probably even have 2-class if they had the 717 instead of the 737!

Actually, WN bought an MD-80 operator in the southeast US that had larger seats up front. Before getting rid of these MD-80s, WN got rid of the big seats. Of course, the fact that no one was sititng in them because they though they had to pay extra for them didn't help...

seems to me that a 713 would be closer in size to a dc-9-50 and smaller than the md90??

Precisely.

Again, why would they go through the trouble of making the 717 two rows longer (from a DC9-40 size to a DC9-50 size)...that means a LOT of engineering work for something that is nearly the same...when the MD90 ALREADY exhists and has the RANGE too.

FL operates the 717 at 117 seats in 2-class configuration. Most airlines would operate 108-112 seats. AA with MRTC would operate only 96 in the 712 (same size as NJ would have had). The 717-200 is roughly a DC-9-30 sized aircraft. The 717-300 (proposed) would be a DC-9-50 sized aircraft. Both are slightly larger than their predecessors. The 717-300 would operate with 137 seats for FL, if I recall correctly.

i'm really surprised airtran hasn't gotten boeing to work on a 713

They did, but Boeing wasn't willing or able to give it the transcon-range that FL wanted.

Range has always been the downside, even on the 90's.

I don't see how. Except for BOS-SAN, the MD-90 could do just about any trans-con.

Ckfred:

I understand some of your reply #51. Can you clarify your third paragraph?

i wonder where they'd put the additional fuel tanks so that it could fly transcontinental...?

If an airline were willing to give up the cargo payload, they could do it the same way they get 2000nm from the 717-200: Cut into the hold and put in some tanks. But Boeing has already said they don't want to do this.

i'd bet that almost all of AA's additional md80s came from the acquisition of TWA. does anyone know for sure that they've been scooping up used md80s elsewhere...?

As far as I know, AA has 350 MD-80s, of which 90 or so came from TWA.

If they have 300 MD-80s they better have about 20 for spare parts!

Actually, Boeing still has the ability to produce spare parts for these aircraft. "New" parts is a lucrative business for any manufacturer.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:13 am

American has 362 MD-80s in its fleet. 259 are AA's own, while 103 came from TWA. None of the Ex-Reno birds were retained. AA's oldest MD-82 is 21 yrs old this year, while the youngest MD-83 (and the last ever built) TWA bird will be a mere 5 yrs old in December. Geez, I talk like these birds are kids turning into adults!  Wink/being sarcastic Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Northwest717
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:26 am

I am still waiting for that one special order from you know who.....  Big grin

-Tim  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
ckfred
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:43 pm

Elwood64151:

The point that I was trying to make is that it is to AA's advantage to buy aircraft that are similar to ones that is now owns, for purposes of maintenance, training, crew staffing, etc. If AA buys 737-700s to replace the Fokkers, they will be only a few years behind the 737-800s currently in the fleet, as far as retirement schedule.

On the other hand, assuming 25 years of service, the MD-80 fleet will start shrinking in 2008, and all the AA birds will be retired by 2016. If AA got its first 717 in 2005, that fleet will overlap the MD-80 fleet for only 11 years. Then the 717 fleet will be like the Fokker, a small number of planes, relative to the total fleet, with no commonality with the rest of the fleet.

A friend of mine who flies 757/767 for AA has told me that management likes having fewer aircraft types, since it requires fewer reserve pilots. If the FAA were to not allow pilots to fly both the 757 and 767, AA would need more reserve pilots that it does with a combined fleet.

That's why the longer AA intends to keep the the MD-80s, the more sense it makes to buy 717s. If, on the other hand, AA does plan to start MD-80 retirement in a few years, and replacing them with 737-700s or -800s, then the 717 makes less sense.

FlyABR:

737-800 pilots do make more than MD-80 pilots. AA's pay scale for pilots is based on aircraft weight, specifically MTOW. I don't think the 737-800 is a lot heavier than the MD-80, but the 737 does a lot more long-haul flying.
 
LRGT
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:48 pm

Someone commented that they hadn't seen an all-coach 717.
I believe that the Turkmenistan 717s are all-coach.


They are actually 55C/55Y...which is difficult to beleive; the C-class must not have any pitch. I still have yet to find one in all coach.

See Article: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/news_release_000727b.html

This airplane obviously lends itself to having a business class cabin. Ellwood64151 said that AA would operate it with 96 seats...what is that ALL business class? Airtran 717's have 12 seats up front which is a lot and they still carry 117 pax total. I fly up front of FL all of the time and find their business class to have more room than any domestic premium service (40" of pitch). NW DC9's have 34" in first-class!

If AA only fits 96, then I feel sorry for them.
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
777ER
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:55 pm

Air NZs 42 B777 family and B7E7 family options are split as follows
B7E7 - 16 options
B777-200ER - 9 options
B777-300ER - 17 options (B773ERs will replace NZ B744 fleet in bout 10 years)

Some of the B7E7 options are intended to replace the 4 B772ERs that NZ will lease from ILFC when the lease expires on the four B772ERs. NZ is also looking at the B7E7-9.
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SafetyDude
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:08 pm

On the other hand, assuming 25 years of service, the MD-80 fleet will start shrinking in 2008, and all the AA birds will be retired by 2016. If AA got its first 717 in 2005, that fleet will overlap the MD-80 fleet for only 11 years. Then the 717 fleet will be like the Fokker, a small number of planes, relative to the total fleet, with no commonality with the rest of the fleet.
To me, the next problem is that AA has 717s that are going to be kind of "out of date". To me, it would make sense to replace the MD-80s with something that is going to be new and fresh.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
planemaker
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:57 pm

I know that it is fun to speculate but... there is not a chance that AA will ever buy the 717 for a very simple reason -- fleet commonality. ALL network carriers have worked very hard to simplify their fleets, and the effort is ongoing. In a recent interview Delta's Sr. VP-COO stated that they will probably end up with only 3 or 4 fleet types.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
D950
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:38 pm

AA did fly some of the ex Reno birds, they flew the MD90's for some time on the old Reno routes, as well as a few of the 80's, though for a much shorter time.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
na
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:58 pm

777s and prospective new operators: I read this week that Boeing said that they are in talks with 2 new clients who might order some later this year.
No words about who they are of cause, and no words about which version.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:21 pm

Psssst.......

Strong rumours here are that our beloved Martinair is in for 777's.......

Now, you all can go back into your 717 and mainly USA-focused discussion.
Sorry to wake you up.  Wink/being sarcastic

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
SafetyDude
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:12 am

Strong rumours here are that our beloved Martinair is in for 777's
I would love to see that happen - but I guess that means the end is coming for the MD-11s?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
worldoftui
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:03 am

Just read in Travel Weekly the following extract....... http://www.travelweekly.co.uk

A Thomas Cook Airline spokesman confirmed the group was examining the possibility of an order across its mix of airlines.

"It's something that is on the agenda," he said. "It's a product that is certainly under consultation."

Thomson (Tui) and MyTravel have dismissed the aircraft, however. MyTravel said it had only just completed a fleet renewal program, while Thomson's airline, Britannia, said it had no plans to place an order.......

A Boeing spokeswoman confirmed both Thomas Cook and Aer Lingus were considering moving to the new aircraft......"



Mark
 
flyabr
Topic Author
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:08 am

worldoftui,

what new aircraft was thomas cook looking at...?

 
worldoftui
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:16 am

Sorry.

Article was entirely about the 7E7. I forgot to add that!

Mark
 
SafetyDude
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:21 am

A Thomas Cook Airline spokesman confirmed the group was examining the possibility of an order across its mix of airlines.
Some of the more major LCCs/charter companies have been surprising us!

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
elwood64151
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:23 am

Ellwood64151 said that AA would operate it with 96 seats...what is that ALL business class? Airtran 717's have 12 seats up front which is a lot and they still carry 117 pax total. I fly up front of FL all of the time and find their business class to have more room than any domestic premium service (40" of pitch). NW DC9's have 34" in first-class!

Remember that AA has it's More Room Throughout Coach. NJ's aircraft had the same seat pitch in coach. If we had operated the 717-200, our birds could only have carried 96 passengers. Unless our Biz-class product had significantly more leg room (which I doubt, since I've flown both and didn't see a difference), AA's configuration would be about the same.

FL's seat configuration in coach is a significantly narrower pitch than AA MRTC.

To me, the next problem is that AA has 717s that are going to be kind of "out of date". To me, it would make sense to replace the MD-80s with something that is going to be new and fresh.

The MD-80 was a roughly five-year-old design when AA first picked them up. The 717 is about that same age now. The 737-300 was just as "new and fresh" back when the MD-80 started service, and Boeing had lots of 727s and other Boeing birds...

there is not a chance that AA will ever buy the 717 for a very simple reason -- fleet commonality.

If AA retires the MD-80, pilots will need only a familiarity course to operate the 717... Retraining costs are a huge consideration when choosing aircraft...

I'm not saying AA is likely to pick up the 717. Just that fleet commonality exists, but from a different perspective than the usual MX perspective...

I'd love to see 717s back in AA colors. And if the 737-800s are used to replace 757-200s, rather than MD-80s, then it could happen... With 362 potential orders, I think they could convince Boeing to build the 717-300HGW, but that's just me spit-balling...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Northwest717
Posts: 612
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:10 am

How about every airline purchases 5 777s and 20 717s, then we can stop speculating and spreading rumours about who is going to buy the 717 or 777. Then everybody is happy!  Big thumbs up

-Tim  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
f4f3a
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:14 am

i doubt that AA will buy the 717 . They love the MD-80 but the 717 isnt what they want. They inherited some from TWA and disposed of them very quickly. I think 737 NGs are more likely.

Thomas cook is unlikely to order the 7e7 they have a330s and are very pleased with them.

britannia is more likely to order the 7e7 but they seem preoccupied with thomsonfly at the moment.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:33 am

They love the MD-80 but the 717 isnt what they want. They inherited some from TWA and disposed of them very quickly.

Those 717s' non-negotiable sky-high lease rates were the cause for their disposal from AA. not their operational specifications/characteristics.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
worldoftui
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:21 am

britannia is more likely to order the 7e7 but they seem preoccupied with thomsonfly at the moment.

Britannia have ruled out ordering the 7E7.

For how long this will be the case is difficult to say.


Mark
 
Gemuser
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:20 am

Jetstar (nee Impluse) operates all Y class B717-200. Couldnt find how many seats, but their web site quotes 30" pitch.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
whitehatter
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:03 am

Britannia have ruled out ordering the 7E7.

Just at the moment, and airlines don't particularly like discussing pending deals too much. There are also considerations such as Stock Market announcements to think of. Major capital projects are best announced puiblicly to a set timetable without too much prying, which is why BY statements have up until now been vague.

The TUI situation complicates it even more as they need to think in terms of a group nowadays rather than just as Hapag-Lloyd, Britannia and the rest as separate units.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
f4f3a
Posts: 612
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:15 am

to battyboy (concorde boy)

717 is a no seller thats why BA shunned it
(no rear doors ) makes life harder for operators

I have from a reliable source (my brother who is fo on brit) that they are very interested in the 7e7 and are on the design team.

I also asked mr jethro on www.jethros.i12.com uk airline listings that the rumour is that Brit are going looking to order 7e7.

considering that brit are boeing loyalists I think the have to order it.
They need to compete with first choice
 
JasperEMA
Posts: 45
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:08 pm

777=VS?/BA 717=NWA(DO NOT MENTION THE -9) or just Boeing b/s as they would have to give them away ,newer designs more efficient?
 
The777Man
Posts: 6122
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:04 am

Possibly one of the new potential 777 customers is AeroMexico (AM), see seperate post.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
worldoftui
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:43 am

Whitehatter

Just seen this in the latest Travel Weekly.......

TUI supports B7E7

........... While it is true Britannia Airways has no immediate plans to place and order for the 7E7, Tui has not "dismissed" the aircraft.
Boeing is a long-standing major strategic partner of Britannia and the wider Tui Group and both parties work together to share best practice and explore potential commercial opportunities. A fleet management technical specialist from the Tui Group has been actively participating in Boeing's product development team for the B7E7 to provide leisure industry input.
This support will continue and demonstrates the potential interest the Tui Group has in the 7E7 for the future alongside other alternatives, which it continues to evaluate.

Kevin Hatton, managing director, Britannia Airways, Luton Airport

I guess I got it wrong too then!  Big grin

Mark
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:39 am

Not wrong at all.

Britannia are just playing it close to their chest for now, but those 767s will need replacing sooner or later. Some have already gone after all, the older 762s.

A lot depends on the future of Luton Engineering, and what TUI eventually decide regarding group overhauls.

The Russian 717 story looks more interesting though. That could come to be more than the rumour now that there have been articles in the press.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
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RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:17 am

considering that brit are boeing loyalists I think the have to order it.
They need to compete with first choice


Oh yes. British airways REALLY needs to 'compete' against a charter outfit. Even FCA scheduled doesn't have one single route where they compete against British Airways.

The two carriers are about as different as it is possible to be.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
worldoftui
Posts: 1054
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:18 pm

RE: New 717 And 777 Customers...?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:39 am

considering that brit are boeing loyalists I think the have to order it.
They need to compete with first choice

Oh yes. British airways REALLY needs to 'compete' against a charter outfit. Even FCA scheduled doesn't have one single route where they compete against British Airways.

The two carriers are about as different as it is possible to be.


Mmmmm. Do you think that "brit" might actually mean "Britannia" and not "British Airways?"

F4f3a
Which one do you mean?


Mark

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