Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:09 pm

"NF would have loved to announce this order at Farnborough, but it looks as though they didn't quite make it."

I wouldn't be so sure he'd want the full details of this deal to go public. I've now been told by a third seperate party that one of the conditions of this deal is the A380 order will be switched from 'firm' to 'reconfirmable options.' Basically, VS are trying to back out of the A380. I don't think NF or JL would like that to be made public at Farnborough.

---------------------------------

The rumor mill is spinning, thanks Hamlet69 for sharing this gem with us, who knows if its true but it certainly is very, very interesting.

If Virgin is having second thoughts about the A380 for whatever reason, Virgin would have no choice but to go with the A346 to protect deposits or monies it has already paid to Airbus with respect to the A380s.

My opinion is that, as of this moment, Virgin has NOT made a decision. Airbus is playing Boeing and Airbus against eachother and waiting to see how low they will go with respect to price, plus waiting to see what other extras the manufacturers will throw in to secure the order. If VS wants to further delay its A380 order or have the option to pass on the A380 altogether, this is certainly the time to work out those details. Once this new order is confirmed, Airbus will be much less flexible on this issue.
 
rwylie77
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:31 pm

VS11 - collusion is illegal!

They will go for the A340 - people on this site massively underestimate the cargo revenue!!
 
crewrest
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 12:14 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:35 pm

I disagree about the A380, I think VS will still be getting it, it's not just airport issues that are delaying it, it's the whole business of a little airline launching such a big project, as well as needing a few more A346's in the meantime for medium term route expansion (SYD, 2nd HKG, HAV, DXB? and the other rumoured places)

I also feel that the A346 although a slightly quirky aircraft (too long to taxi, no bodygear steering, too heavy, similar fuel burn to a 744) the price and cargo capabilities are too good to be ignored. Cargo kept the airline going post 9/11. (along with SQ)

Flight ops in VS is apparently strugging to cope with the current progamme; lobbing the 380/773 in wouldn't help at all.

Roll on the announcement

[Edited 2004-07-23 15:37:14]
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:46 am

Ajet,
That brought back way too many memories of the Performance ATPL!  Wow!

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:58 am

similar fuel burn to a 744

This statement couldn't be more wrong. On many long sectors, the 346 burns as much as 20 tons less than a 744 with even a smaller load.

N
 
Hirnie
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 7:13 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:05 am

It is very interesting to read all the posts about the 777-300ER being so superior over the A340-600 in terms of economics. But why should airlines like SAA, Lufthansa, Thai, Air Canada etc. choose the 340-600 and not the 777-300ER? For sure those airlines calculated every detail about the deal and came to the conclusion that they can make more money with the 340-600. So this airplane can`t be so bad as some posts here try to tell us. Other airlines chose the 777-300ER because it fitted better into their fleet in terms of making profits.
So what`s the thing about it? I think both planes are pretty close together and it is only details that make one airline buy a 777-300ER or a 340-600.
I´m sure we will see a lot of 340-600 being sold in the future, so again: this aircraft can`t that bad...
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:19 am

"Basically, VS are trying to back out of the A380."

First I've heard and I don't believe it for one second.

VS can't wait to get the A380, the problem has been that Airbus has changed it's mind on a few of the specs that VS wanted. VS wanted the interior stairs by door 2, like they are on the B744 as this is the door that is most used for passenger boarding. Airbus at first said that VS could have this option at no extra cost. As the project has moved along though, it seems that VS are the only airline so far that wants the steps in this position as the rest want them at door 1, so Airbus are now saying that VS will have to pay extra for it.

Also some of the interior specs that VS want will not be available intime for the original delivery dates hence another reason why they were put back by 18 months (the airport facilities not being ready intime were another reason too).

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
jtdieffen
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:46 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:38 am

It is very interesting to read all the posts about the 777-300ER being so superior over the A340-600 in terms of economics. But why should airlines like SAA, Lufthansa, Thai, Air Canada etc. choose the 340-600 and not the 777-300ER?

Three things come to mind:
1) the A340-600 was first to market;
2) the A346 comes with a lower price tag than the 777-300ER;and
3) fleet commonality, at least with several of those airlines.

Yes, those airlines analyze every cost associated with purchasing new airliners, and included in that analysis are costs associated with aquisition/introduction of a new type into a fleet. I don't think it's such a far stretch that the A346 was chosen over the 773ER, despite lower economics.
Regards! JDief
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:04 am

But why should airlines like SAA, Lufthansa, Thai, Air Canada etc. choose the 340-600 and not the 777-300ER?
SAA-Got a good deal as Swiss did not want them
LH-their fleet is mostly Airbus, except for the 747s and a few other planes, and for most of the 330/340 "projects", they were one of the first few customers
Thai-I just found out today that they are getting them  Laugh out loud
AC-Their Boeing longhaul fleet is quickly going

While the purpose of my post is not to bash Airbus or the mentioned airlines, but rather that there are reasons for orders (as there are for Boeing).


Airbus has changed it's mind on a few of the specs that VS wanted. VS wanted the interior stairs by door 2, like they are on the B744 as this is the door that is most used for passenger boarding. Airbus at first said that VS could have this option at no extra cost. As the project has moved along though, it seems that VS are the only airline so far that wants the steps in this position as the rest want them at door 1, so Airbus are now saying that VS will have to pay extra for it.
While some people have doubted the A380 seat map of Virgin, is interesting to note that the stairs are by the 1-doors.
http://www.v-flyer.com/seats-pf.asp?pid=9

On a side note, what are the benefits of having the door by the 1 doors? If they are by the 2 doors, VS would not have passengers from all classes going through at least two zones of Upper Class, and they would not have to worry about a lot of people by the cockpit.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:50 am

Hence the max thrust on a twin jet must be much higher, and the 2 engines of a twin are heavier than the 4 engines of a 4-holer. Being heavier, the aircraft needs more fuel.

Aside from the anecdotal fact that there would be no reason build twinjets if this were true, the manufacturers' published numbers show that two 777 engines are significantly lighter than four A340 engines:

777-200ER vs. A340-300

GE90-94B dry weight: 16,644 lbs.
PW4098 dry weight: 16,500 lbs.
Trent 895 dry weight: 13,500 lbs.

CFM56-5C dry weight: 8,796 lbs.

- Weight savings (2 GE90 vs. 4 CFM56): 1,896 lbs.
- Weight savings (2 PW4098 vs. 4 CFM56): 2,184 lbs.
- Weight savings (2 Trent 895 vs. 4 CFM56): 8,184 lbs.

777-300ER vs. A340-600

GE90-115B dry weight: 18,260 lbs.
Trent 556 dry weight: 10,400 lbs.

- Weight savings (2 GE90 vs. 4 Trent 556): 5,080 lbs.

I'm not arguing that the 777 is a superior aircraft for every mission requirement; undoubtedly the A340s suit some carriers better, especially with their lower acquisition cost. However, it's hard to conclude from the available data that a twinjet is heavier than an equivalent quad.

Sources:
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/ge90/ge90-94b.html
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/ge90/ge90-115b.html
http://newsite.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jae/jae010213_2_n.shtml
http://www.cfm56.com/engines/cfm56-5c/tech.html

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
VS11
Posts: 1714
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:24 am

Rwylie77 -

Of course, collusion is illegal - if proven. Just because it is illegal, it does not mean it is not done. Although I made the suggestion as a joke, those two companies can really devise a way of how to deal with airlines that are trying to play them off all the time. It does not come cheap trying to sell aircraft.

I am all for competition but what I think is happening often is that airlines have made up their mind to go with a type but are still playing both manufacturers to gain even more concessions. In the story with the recent IB order for A346, it seemed clear to me that IB never planned to go for the B777 but they were using Boeing all the time to get cheaper and cheaper Airbuses. It seems quite dishonest to lead someone to believe that you were considering their product when you were not but you wanted to use them to manipulate the vendor that you chose. After all, Boeing and Airbus need to make money too so airlines need to stop trying to be so self-serving all the time.

Also, for Boeing it should have been quite apparent by now that European carriers tend to go with Airbus. There are so many reasons for that beyond pure aircraft economics and performance characteristics that Boeing should stop to be in denial about it, and work only with serious partners rather than just be like a dog that goes and jumps around everyone that calls its name.

As to the Virgin order, I am fairly certain there will be A346s in it but if Virgin goes all Airbus, it will start to lose its leverage with Boeing as it will be gradually turning into all-Airbus airline. So the most logical outcome seems to me to be going for both A346 and B777. I know Virgin has been one of the first airlines to play Airbus and Boeing off each other (in 1993 or so) but at least it ordered from both so it could do the same once again.

Regards,
vs11
 
NWDC10
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:15 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:35 am

You need to understand something. Taking the A346/777. 4 engines can be more fuel efficeient than 2 or the 2 can be more fuel efficient than 4. If the 2 engines are more fuel efficient than the 1 engine, then the 4 engine aircraft aircraft is more efficient. A346 engines are smaller but you need to consider the specific fuel consumption of 2 A346 engines compared to the 1 777engine. robert NWDC10
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:08 am

As for 2 vs 4 engines, many potential customers (usually older generations) take this issue seriously. I have a Canadian uncle who "won't cross the Atlantic on less than 4 engines", needless to say he rarely visits these days!
Obviously this makes little sense to the rest of us but could be an issue depending on an airlines target customer
 
airchabum
Posts: 754
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:24 pm

According to the company intranet site an announcement is expected next week, but it doesn't say which type.

Cheers
Biggidy biggidy bong
 
gearup
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:23 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:06 pm

Boysteve,

There are probably more people out there like your uncle than we think. They may not refuse to travel but they do so with a great deal of nervousness. The recent Air Transat incident with an A332 does nothing to steady the nerves of these travelers even though that was not an ETOPS related thing (if the airplane had 20 engines, they all stop when you run out of gas!). Many of the ordinary non-aviation-interested travelers still count the number of 'motors' on an airplane that they are about to board!

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
teahan
Posts: 4994
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:13 pm

Anyone know what is really going at VS? A spokesperson today said: "We still think it is going to be sometime during the later part of the summer" (source: Reuters Article)

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:09 pm

Is there any inside information/updates from the VS staff?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos