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usnseallt82
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Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:05 am

In a recent report by CNN, the European aircraft maker Airbus will begin modifications of it's A330 model aircraft to rival the new Boeing 7E7:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/23/news/international/airbus_boeing.reut/index.htm


As if the A380 wasn't going to be big enough.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
Greg
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:09 am

But wait...they just said two days ago that the 7e7 posed no threat whatsoever to the existing 330-200!

Hmmmm....

 
tekelberry
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:11 am

The topic title is a little misleading. All they are going to do is modify an existing airplane. They aren't developing a whole new plane.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:14 am

I bet it will be more new than old.

See, the A330 is a just fine plane.

They can manufacture an increased portion of the plane from composites, upgrade all the systems, and develop an improved wing.

The result, in all honesty, is a new plane. Nobody really believes the 747-400 is similar to a 747-100 in any way but appearance.

N
 
tekelberry
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:16 am

Gigneil,

The article says that only the engines and wings are going to change. Where did you get the idea that they will build it with more composites and upgrade all the systems?
 
Ken777
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:18 am

Might be that the airlines have been telling that they LIKE the 7E7. It's not easy to stick with what you have when customers tell you something like that. The only question is the costs that A will face.
 
radelow
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:35 am

It's not as easy as just throwing on some bleedless engines etc. Airbus faces several difficult obstacle's the primary one being MONEY. To really make a competitor with the 7E7 they are going to have the EU countries for money. They do that and Boeing will raise a huge stink. The 330 is a good plane but slapping on new engines and changing the wing will not compete with an entirely new plane that is almost all composite (thus lighter more efficient).
 
F4N
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:39 am

To all:

What? Another version of the A330 to compete with an a/c that Airbus is not worried about? I wonder if John L. finally started golfing with the right airline CEO's that he finally heard about the orders that Boeing hasn't announced yet
and is now getting concerned.  Big grin

At this rate, even Sabenapilot might have to admit that there just may be something to 7e7... Big thumbs up

regards,

F4N
 
Korg747
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:43 am

Is airbus that rich??
Please excuse my English!
 
oerk
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:45 am

Yes


.... no filling required.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:45 am

Do you believe everything coming out of Airbus... they never get it right the first time... lol...

but anyhew, its a modified A330 and to develop something to rival the 7E7 they need a lot more than new wings and engines. This is a good start to keep their current customers happy but I dont think they will gain new customers when they can choose the 7E7...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:01 am

Actually Boeing's 7E7 may not look exactly the way it does on the drawing board by the time the actual aircraft hits the stands.. apparently it is not as fuel efficient as the designers thought it will be with the new curved design. So it may very well end up looking like a 777!
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:06 am

Where did you get the idea that they will build it with more composites and upgrade all the systems?

I didn't say they will, just that they can.

N
 
radelow
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:11 am

For me personally I don't really care how it looks. Nor do the airlines. If it achieves the economy goals that is all that matters. It's gonna be awesome on the inside though if they can increase the humidity and the pressure.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:16 am

The other day in a topic asking if Airbus is making a mistake with the A380, it was also questioned by posters of Airbus not going for a 7E7 competitor. Some, including myself, suggested that they find some way to modify the A330 series to offer a competitor to Boeing's mid-sized a/c, like the 7E7 as well as replace the A300/310 series.
 
N766UA
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:37 am

I thought the 7E7 posed no threat and the A380 was the way of the future? Obviously no modification of any kind is justified because the A380 is what airlines will order, not the 7E7 or more A330s.

Seems like Airbus may be playing catch up now.
 
sandiaman
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:52 am

More ruminations:

1. Although we've read about A332 Lite in past articles, the WSJ article really focused on increasing the efficiency and range of the A332. The article made no mention of the A332 Lite.
2. Separately, Mr. Leahy has described the 7E7-3 as "sinking into the sunset". Even though this sounds like an overdramatization, it makes you wonder what kind of customer feedback Mr. Leahy has been getting about the Lite variant.

sooo....

It could be that Airbus has decided not to chase the 7E3 with an A332 Lite derivative and instead pursue the longer range variant. This would play more to the A332's strengths. In addition, modifications to an enhanced range A332 could also be applied to the A333, making that plane a more effective competitor to the 772ER.

Remember that Emirates and Qatar are interested in a higher capacity 7E7. But Boeing has decided to delay the introduction of the -9*. This leaves Emirates and Qatar as potential near-term customers for an improved A332/A333. 2012 is a long time to wait for the 7E9.
 
sandiaman
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:54 am

Sorry folks, I accidentally posted my response in this thread. There is another thread about A332 variants that specifically mentions the WSJ article. I will re-post there.

(still relevant)
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:41 am

Why doesn't Airbus build something to fill in between the A321 and the A330-200, and I am not talking about the A310 or A300, but a newer aircraft. Airbus really doesn't have anything now that can directly compete with a 757 or 767.

Airbus has plans for a whole new 7E7 size aircraft I think to come out around 2011.
 
greatansett
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:02 am

Does anyone seem to remember that Boeing a few years back said it was not concerned with the A332. Now they are going to bring out the 7E7....It works both ways.
Ron Paul 2012
 
flyabr
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:07 am

to airbus' credit...they have figured out quicker that the 7e7 is a threat...where as it took boeing longer to figure that out when the a332 was first offered...
 
NoUFO
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:31 am

After 200 orders the 7E7 gained, it would require a hybernating management to not consider Boeing's new airliner a threat.

Airbus' A330 has an 80% market share on new orders, which is really something they should defend.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Thrust
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:50 am

We shall see if the 7E7 is all its cooked up to be...right now, until the 7E7 flies...Airbus should expect the unexpected.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
wdleiser
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:53 am

Wait wait wait?!?!?! isnt it the 7e7 that wants to be a competitor with the A330? Why would airbus want to be a competitor with the 7e7 if they allready are. The 7e7 want's to compete with the plane that took their 767 sales.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:55 am

After 200 orders the 7E7 gained, it would require a hybernating management to not consider Boeing's new airliner a threat.

The plane doesn't have even remotely 200 orders. I wish people would stop saying that.

Wait wait wait?!?!?! isnt it the 7e7 that wants to be a competitor with the A330?

Nothing wrong with a little updating to match up on specs. Its gonna be way easier for Airbus than Boeing.

N
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:30 am


to airbus' credit...they have figured out quicker that the 7e7 is a threat...where as it took boeing longer to figure that out when the a332 was first offered...


Not really. Boeing answered the 332 with an updated 764er. Now, Airbus is countering with an updated 332. In the jet age, the 737NG was the only derivative aircraft that matched fairly evenly with a new design, the 320, but that was done with a new wing. Will history be kind to an updated 332?


The plane doesn't have even remotely 200 orders. I wish people would stop saying that.


You don't stop people from repeating "unproven" claims by Airbus, then I don't think it's fair for you to ask people to stop repeating "unproven" claims by Boeing. I understand your doubts, but I can also tell you Boeing is not bluffing. You don't believe Mike Bair, then I know for certain that you won't believe me either.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:54 am

Nothing wrong with a little updating to match up on specs. Its gonna be way easier for Airbus than Boeing.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that. Sure the A330 update probably won't cost as much as the 7E7 development, but what Boeing takes from the 7E7 will likely be carried to every other product in the Boeing line. Boeing pays a lot, but they get a lot in return. WN, probably the most influential 737 customer, has publically stated that they would buy a "737-sized aircraft with 7E7 technology." If that is not an invitation to build a 737 replacement, I don't know what is.

Second, as fine as the A332 is, you are talking about adding roughly 1,500 nm of range, while at the same time reducing weight and so forth, while at the same time trying to avoide invalidating the A340 line. That alone justifies extensive marketing research.

The plane doesn't have even remotely 200 orders. I wish people would stop saying that.

Boeing has just as much credit saying they have close to 200 orders as Airbus has saying they have half the orders needed for the A380 to break even. None of us can really say otherwise.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
flyabr
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:20 pm

Not really. Boeing answered the 332 with an updated 764er. Now, Airbus is countering with an updated 332. In the jet age, the 737NG was the only derivative aircraft that matched fairly evenly with a new design, the 320, but that was done with a new wing. Will history be kind to an updated 332?

and exactly how many of those 764s have been sold compared to the a332? point was the a332 was out for quite some time before boeing even had an answer...

if airbus jumps on the bandwagon very soon...they may just have a competitive plane at the time the 7e7 is introduced. the will give them some advantage since there are so many new a332 customers currently...
 
sllevin
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:33 pm

If they redesign the wing, they have effectively redesigned the aircraft. The real work, and the real difference between aircraft, is the wing.

Otherwise, the 330 is nothing more than a stretched 300, which it sure ain't!  Smile

It actually doesn't surprise me. Airbus had to make compromises to use the same wing for the 330 and 340. Now, a decade later, those compromises will have to be "beaten out"  Smile

Steve
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:36 pm

You don't stop people from repeating "unproven" claims by Airbus, then I don't think it's fair for you to ask people to stop repeating "unproven" claims by Boeing.

That's bullshit and you know it. I bitch equally at people about unproven claims on either side.

Mike Bair has never, once, claimed to have 200 orders. He does claim to have 200 deals in the works, and expects to close them this year. That's different than having 200 orders.

N
 
flyabr
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:55 pm

200 deals in the works...at the same time....wow!! that's alot of wheeling and dealing...  Big grin
 
miamix707
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:27 pm

Great, another ugly Airbus plane. You gotta give Airbus credit though they've gotten a good number of orders for the A380 so far. After a few years in service we'll see how successful that thing really is.

by the way hasn't Jihad I mean Etihad Airways being in service for less than a year? Do they know their routes will have enough demand to be ordering so many new large aircraft including the A380s?
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:11 pm

This is hardly news, we've heard blurbs about it for awhile, still no official announcement from EADS/Airbus. I wonder if it will be Leahy who will do the press conference; if so, he'd better have a ready answer to the reporters about the Airbus response to an airplane he wasn't "the least bit concerned about" a short time ago. If I was there, I'd present him with a baked crow on a platter along with a tip that it might be time to think about checking some of his comments at the door before he does such a press appearance. As to the 'new' A332, don't expect a radical change in structure or systems; that would cost far too much money better spent on a new design. They can give it a lighter wing and use GLARE for fuselage panels, more composites in the tail and such but the internal structure will be left alone. Forget 'bleedless' engines, that requires a switch to more electric systems that would cost too much AND lose commonality with other A330s. Bleed-air variants of 7E7 engine, like Boeing plans for the 747 Advanced seem likely, in fact the entire approach for this A332 derivative could well mirror that for the 747 Adv. It will still, however, be significantly heavier than the 7E7-9, so matching that airplane exactly in fuel efficiency is highly unlikely; coming within a few percentage points is probably the BEST they can hope for. If this 'A330-200E' (E for efficient, natch) is available sooner than the 7E7-9, they'll snag some customers who can't wait for the Boeing, as well as prolonging the A332 production run. But make no mistake, it will still be a half-hearted response and merely a stopgap until Airbus can aquire new capital to develop something truly competitive. Leahy and Forgeard boast about how newer Airbus designs like the A380 and A332 have made older Boeing designs like the 747 and 767 obsolete but now they say a tweaking of a heavier mature design is every bit as good as an all-new one bristling with innovative technology and lighter construction. HELLO? Consistency is obviously not part of the sales lexicon at Airbus, not to say, however, that Boeing is much better in that regard, either. But lately, in particular, Leahy seems to be suffering from a bit of runaway mouth and if I were Forgeard, I have him turn it down just a wick, out of some concern for long-term credibility.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:17 pm

I always thought the 7e7 was to initially replace the 767 in the boeing production line. So I had the impression that airbus would use the 330 or 340 to compete with the 7e7.
 
greatansett
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:22 pm

Gee some people can sure be cocky, this is all bitched up speculation, when it comes down to it both companies make great aircraft, who cares in the whole scheme of things if they are copying each other, they always do. When the finished product comes out, then the bitch fight can start, for now, as Bill O'Realy puts it, shut up,...Oh sorry this is a democracy, just don't make such harsh judgments.
Ron Paul 2012
 
Douglas7Seas
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:57 pm

Last night I was reading an article in the latest issue of AIRLINERS magazine: "The 7E7 Dreamliner". When finished, it occurred to me that the A380 attempts to fill a need already reliably met by the 747. The 7E7 on the other hand, takes the next great leap forward in aerornautical efficiency, cost effectiveness and comfort. Perhaps Boeing knows what they are doing after all.

See ya,

John
Be different; Be nice.
 
transPac
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:14 pm

I think Airbus is going to shift more eggs into the A330 upgrade basket when the A380 reaches its the inevitable drop in sales its heading toward. Its a great plane im sure, and it won't be a failure per se but its not the future of commercial aviation thats for damn sure. Once they have some time on their hands in a few years, who knows, this new A330 might be just that...a new A330. Where will they get the money, you might ask? They'll manage, they always do. The EU has an almost infinite amount of financial jiggery-pokery available to "subsidize" their aerospace industry without technically violating WTO trade policies. If you research the history of the trade negotiations in this sector you'll realize that there isn't a whole lot the US can do about it. Sure is not as easy as it used to be but the EU is still a very complex beast, and by the time the US lobbyists penetrate the smokescreens and "sort-of" prove "something" it will too late. I'm not saying this is good or bad, its just the way it is.
 
dbo861
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:38 pm

"The topic title is a little misleading. All they are going to do is modify an existing airplane. They aren't developing a whole new plane."

The title isn't really misleading...the title of the CNN article says the exact same thing.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:41 pm

From the article:

Changes would include more fuel-efficient engines and possible changes to the wings to increase the plane's range, the newspaper said.

What exactly are the 'upgrade' features for the A330 'Lite' (as people call it currently, I guess...) that Airbus is trying to do? The article isn't really that specific.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
transPac
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:59 pm

AirframeAS, there really isn't any new news here other than Airbus publicly stating that they intend to do what we all thought they were going to do anyway. Big grin
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:15 pm

Factoid:

Of 41 replys here, only 6 are front countries outside the US.

Meaning:

Everytime Airbus goes to do something, alot of people begin chewing their nails on one particular side of the ocean.

 Smile Ah yes. Entertaining at best!
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:17 pm


Not really. Boeing answered the 332 with an updated 764er. Now, Airbus is countering with an updated 332. In the jet age, the 737NG was the only derivative aircraft that matched fairly evenly with a new design, the 320, but that was done with a new wing. Will history be kind to an updated 332?


and exactly how many of those 764s have been sold compared to the a332? point was the a332 was out for quite some time before boeing even had an answer...


I didn't miss your point. Boeing had an answer but an answer that was far from being able to meet the competition.


if airbus jumps on the bandwagon very soon...they may just have a competitive plane at the time the 7e7 is introduced. the will give them some advantage since there are so many new a332 customers currently...


So, obviously, you missed my point. What make you think an improved 332 would be competitive? Do you think by touching up a twenty-year-old design, Airbus can compete against a brand-new design? The 767 had a better customer base than today's 330 customer base, but it didn't help Boeing sell the 764er. So what make you think the current 330 customer base would help Airbus sell an improved 332?


You don't stop people from repeating "unproven" claims by Airbus, then I don't think it's fair for you to ask people to stop repeating "unproven" claims by Boeing.


That's bullshit and you know it. I bitch equally at people about unproven claims on either side.


That's not BS. You yourself have made a lot of unproven claims, I just didn't have the heart and time to point you out all the time.


Mike Bair has never, once, claimed to have 200 orders. He does claim to have 200 deals in the works, and expects to close them this year. That's different than having 200 orders.


What you say it's true. OTOH, whether it's 200 orders in the bag or soon in the bag, it is the amount of activities that has forced Airbus to react. If there isn't a large amount of orders going in Boeing's way, Airbus will not push the panic button. They are already plenty busy with the 380 and A400M.
 
flyabr
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:20 pm

So, obviously, you missed my point. What make you think an improved 332 would be competitive? Do you think by touching up a twenty-year-old design, Airbus can compete against a brand-new design? The 767 had a better customer base than today's 330 customer base, but it didn't help Boeing sell the 764er. So what make you think the current 330 customer base would help Airbus sell an improved 332?

i understand what you are saying...but it appears that airbus will be doing more to the a332 (new wing, engines...etc) to keep it competitive vs what boeing did with the 767.
 
dynkrisolo
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:30 pm


but it appears that airbus will be doing more to the a332 (new wing, engines...etc) to keep it competitive vs what boeing did with the 767


The article only says changes to the wing, it doesn't mean it will have a new wing. They will have to modify the wing to hang the bigger engine. With the on-going 380 and A400M development, I don't think Airbus will have the resources to do a new wing. Even a new wing and a new engine do not guarantee it will be competitive. The MD-90 had both, and it flopped.
 
aerosol
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:40 pm

Isn't the A330 basically a longer A 300 fuselage with new wings and engines?
So why shouldn`t this work again?
Before you all criticize Airbus:
Last time I checked it was not the company constantly loosing market shares!  Big grin
 
ual747-600
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:41 pm

What I find most interesting is that Airbus is going to try to modify an existing design to match the performance of a brand new plane. Boeing failed with the 767-400 as I think Airbus will with this modification. I think it will be difficult to modify an existing design to be as efficient as one coming from a clean piece of paper.

UAL747=600
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:51 pm

"Isn't the A330 basically a longer A 300 fuselage with new wings and engines?"


The A330 is much more than that. Yes, it's shares the same cross section with all other airbus widebodies. But compared to the A300/310 it also uses not just a completely different wing, but also entirely new systems, fly by wire, a new cockpit, a new tail etc.

Calling the A330 an A300 with new wings would be like calling the 737-800 a short range derivative of the 707. They also share the same cross section.
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:53 pm


Isn't the A330 basically a longer A 300 fuselage with new wings and engines?

Other than the fuselage, the 300 and 330 have very little in common.


So why shouldn`t this work again?


It's unlikely to have a new wing, that's one my points. Modifying the wing to hang a bigger engine does not make it a new wing.


Before you all criticize Airbus:
Last time I checked it was not the company constantly loosing market shares


Why do you think Boeing has been losing market share to Airbus? Because they have older designs and derivatives that aren't always effective competing against Airbus's newer models.
 
jeffrito
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:18 pm

It's not only a question of Airbus having the money to do it, or indeed whether the A330 can be made to compete with a lighter, more efficient competitor, it's also Airbus deciding to cut into their own, very successful A330 business by announcing a new, improved version is on the way.

In contrast, Boeing has nothing to lose by hyping the 7E7 ... the 767 is at the end of the line.

If Airbus makes this move, they should do so secretly, while maintaining publicly their view that the A330 is what the 7E7 hopes to be, except that it is available today, not 5 years from now!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Airbus To Now Develop 7E7 Rival!

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:30 pm

What Airbus really needs is a true A300B/A310 replacement.

Imagine something about the length of the A300B2 but with the A330 cockpit, a totally new wing, more efficient engines and the A330 tail. I think Air France, Iberia, Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines are pushing for such a plane. Airbus might use this opportunity to switch to "bleedless" electrical systems, which might eventually result in future A330/A340 versions with "bleedless" electrical systems, too.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos