klmcedric
Topic Author
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KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:46 pm

According to plan KLM will join skyteam on the 15th of september later this year.
Preparations are in process to put the logo on the whole fleet inclusive Cityhopper.
The round logo will be applied just next to the cockpit-window, thus making the
seal of parntnership logo with northwest slowly dissappear.
The plan is to fit the entire fleet with the logo within a year. At first stickers will be
applied and then later, during D-check they will paint it on.
There will be 4 different sizes. The ones on the 747 will be about 1 meter diameter (3 foot)
and the smallest ones about 50cm (1.5 ft) for the fokker fleet.
 
su
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:53 pm

What about KLM's alliances with NW? Are they going to remain as partners or good bye to that partnership?
"Life is too short to take it serious..."
 
FoxBravo
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:59 pm

They will certainly remain partners with NW, but in the broader context of Skyteam, along with DL, CO, AF, etc.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
voodoo
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:01 pm

Soooooo. KLM will have two partnership logos on the livery?
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northernlights
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:13 pm

KLM and its partner Northwest will both join Skyteam, just like Continental will.
The KL/NW "Wings" partnership will (most likely) be dissolved and the airlines will continue their cooperation in Skyteam with all the other member airlines. There is no need to put 2 logo stickers on KL/NW aircraft after the transition period from "KL/NW Wings" to "Skyteam"  Big thumbs up
 
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4everRC
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:30 am

Does anyone know what the timetable for SkyTeam logo application at NW? I am dying to see one on a silver bullet!
Nobody served our republic like Republic!
 
AngelAirways
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:30 am

wait a minute.. who said continental is joining????
 
FoxBravo
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:37 am

CO will join at the same time as NW and KL...last I heard, it was to be in mid-September.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:31 am

US regulators still haven't approved the murder of KLM by Air Farce nor the entrance of 2 more major US carriers into Skyteam.
AF wants it badly to increase their control over the Atlantic routes but they may not have enough funds to bribe the US into submission.
I wish I were flying
 
SafetyDude
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:34 am

US regulators still haven't approved the murder of KLM by Air Farce nor the entrance of 2 more major US carriers into Skyteam.
I do not believe that regulators have any say over alliances, but I could be wrong.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:37 am

Jwenting
I noticed from your previous posts that you are not exactly happy about the merger, but why would US regulators have anything relevant to say about KLM/AF since they have no jurisdiction over them. Same as EU has no jurisdiction over US government post 9/11 aid to UA, AA and others.
Or am I wrong?
 
EddieDude
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:50 am

They could have jurisdiction if the aggregate number of flights from Europe (i.e., CDG and AMS) to the United States offered by a combined AF/KL threatens healthy competition. I don't know if any or all of the DL, OK, AZ, CO and NW flights between Europe and the U.S. are going to be considered too as part of the analysis of the merger by U.S. regulators; if the analysis will be on made on a U.S. city by U.S. city basis or on the whole; etc. And as SafetyDude, I am also not sure if the DOJ or the FTC have jurisdiction over airline alliances (though I believe they do).

Remember that competition (antitrust) law is every day more and more international and that the competition authorities of one country or of the European Union can block a transaction between foreign parties if competition in the corresponding nation is threatened, i.e., the European Commission's competition authority blocked the General Electric-Honeywell transaction; several domestic competition agencies (including Mexico's and Australia's) blocked the merger of Coca Cola and CadburySchweppes, etc.
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Scorpio
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:14 am

Hmm.. A topic about KLM which is remotely linked to Air France, Jwenting probably got a boner just looking at the topic. And again, he doesn't disappoint:

US regulators still haven't approved the murder of KLM by Air Farce nor the entrance of 2 more major US carriers into Skyteam.

FWIW, it's Air France. Learn to spell. Please.
Furthermore, as others have already said, why would the US regulators need to approve the merger of KL and AF??? (BTW, it's a merger. that may SOUND a bit like 'murder', but it's not the same. Look it up. Or learn to spell.)

AF wants it badly to increase their control over the Atlantic routes but they may not have enough funds to bribe the US into submission.

'Bribe the US into submission?????'  Nuts  Nuts Are you serious???? Why the hell do you think they'd want to do that? Oh and 'they're French' is not an answer...

Oh, one last thing: If you want to have ANY credibility in here, you'll stand up for what you believe in for the first time ever on these boards. Right now, with the attitude you have here, you seem to be, as someone on a parody site described you, 'the definition of a troll': you come in, drop an extremist and unsubstantiated post, and disappear.
 
burnsie28
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:38 am

According to an article a few months ago in NW's Employee Newspaper, the NW/KLM alliance will continue as it is today for several more years.
 
syncmaster
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:59 am

"FWIW, it's Air France. Learn to spell. Please.
Furthermore, as others have already said, why would the US regulators need to approve the merger of KL and AF??? (BTW, it's a merger. that may SOUND a bit like 'murder', but it's not the same. Look it up. Or learn to spell.)"

The US Government has to approve it as well, for the simple reason of the fact that they both do business in the United States and they both compete with each other (normally) and both compete with other carriers, same with code-sharing agreements both Domestically and Internationally.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:44 am

The US has to approve the merger of KLM/Air France just like the US/UK had to approve of the alliance between AA/BA. The routes KLM flies to the US are a huge obsticale for the 2 carriers to push past regulators here in the US. These are causes for concerns of a monopoly.
Made from jets!
 
ua777222
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:12 pm

I think they just don't want to turn it into a big monopoly(spelling?). And with two large airlines merging and then joining an alliance with all the other MAJOR major's this could be an issue to other airlines. But I guess if there can be 2 main alliances (Skyteam & Star Alliance) with the same limitations (not airlines but # of shared flights or shared revenue)....

Just a thought!

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
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flashmeister
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:43 pm

The merger between KLM and Air France has already occurred. Any US review of the deal is now academic at best. If they say no, what's left to do? Undo the merger? Hardly.
 
AngelAirways
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:57 pm

Syncmaster,

Before criticizing people's spelling, you should look up the word Farce in the dictionary and then, perhaps with a little more humour, you would understand the play on words. (Murder by Air Farce)

Meanwhile, skyteam aside, I agree that AF is getting very monopolistic and needs some serious competition, just like BA got VS years ago.

Cheerio
 
phollingsworth
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:00 pm

The US has to approve the merger of KLM/Air France just like the US/UK had to approve of the alliance between AA/BA. The routes KLM flies to the US are a huge obsticale for the 2 carriers to push past regulators here in the US. These are causes for concerns of a monopoly.

While the US regulators have to approve mergers, they do not automatically have to approve alliances. They only have to approve anti-trust immunity exemption requests. DL and AF operated within the SkyTeam for quite a while before the exemption was applied for let alone granted. Of course without the immunity the flexibility of the alliance is limited. However, the current immunities still stand, i.e., DL-AF, KL-NW, CO-NW-DL in the USA, and KL-AF in europe. This probably covers the majority of the space, only DL-KL, AF-KL over the Atlantic, and AF-CO-NW are needed (I don't know if CO already has immunity with AF or if they just buy seats). Until then DL is legally allowed to purchase seats on KL flights and visa versa, just not cooperatively set prices.
 
northernlights
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:18 pm

Come on everybody...

Let´s stop the whole AF bashing, you should call it AF/KL bashing as it is one company now. What has happened, has happened. I for myself initially was not happy with this so called KL/AF "merger" either, I am Dutch too... The blue bird has always been special for me... But please grow up: think of what the future may have in store for this new company!!!

Now to get back to the topic, KL planes in the new colour scheme already have the KL/NW sticker next to the cockpit window. This used to be behind the KLM logo on the fuselage of the aircraft. So, the planes in the new colorscheme might just get a new Skyteam logo sticker over the old KL/NW alliance logo sticker.

Just take a look at this pic:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kevin Greenwood





 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:51 pm

Angelairways,

Syncmaster,

Before criticizing people's spelling, you should look up the word Farce in the dictionary and then, perhaps with a little more humour, you would understand the play on words. (Murder by Air Farce)


Syncmaster was quoting from my post. I was the one making the remark about spelling. And I understood the 'play on words' by Jwenting perfectly well. I was criticising it for being petty and childish. Maybe, with a little more humour, you would have seen that.

If you were to take a look at Jwenting's posting history here, you'd notice his modus operandi: drop an extremist / childish and quite often simply made-up oneliner in a thread, and when asked to back it up, disappear. When proven wrong, the silence from his part is deafening. Two days later, he'll make the SAME claim AGAIN in another thread.

So his 'Air Farce' remark is inappropriate and childish, and at about the same level of maturity as the 'Scarebus' and 'Boring' remarks made by some others here.
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:00 am

There will be no future for KLM, as the history of French takeovers of foreign companies shows.
Check Hollandse Signaal Aparaten as a prime example of what happens when the French come in to murder a Dutch company.
Despite promises they'd leave HSA intact and indeed would expand their operations 2 years later there was all but nothing left of the company.
All intellectual property had been moved to France, R&D was shut down, and production was continued only to satisfy standing orders.
When those were delivered the company was driven into bankruptcy, the only ones gaining anything out of that being the French company who purchased them, Thomson CSF.

The same happened time and again with French regional and charter airlines which fell into the klutches of AF.
Check your lists of old French airlines that no longer exist and look up what happened to them...
I wish I were flying
 
kl911
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:14 am

Scorpio,

Why do you always have to critize people? What makes you think you are so special? Jwenting is right that KLM is being murdered by AF, like they killed everything else they tookover.

KL911
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:57 am

There will be no future for KLM, as the history of French takeovers of foreign companies shows.... bla bla bla...Thomson CSF.

See what this is all about? This isn't about Jwenting having real clues that AF is going to kill KLM, it's about his irrational hatred of anything French. Why else would he drag in a completely irrelevant takeover in another sector, and use it to make generalisations about all the French.

The same happened time and again with French regional and charter airlines which fell into the klutches of AF.

Which ones? You claimed in another thread that AF sucked every airline it ever bought dry and forced it into bankruptcy. Several posters here asked you to name those airlines. Despite having no doubt read those posts, you, as you always do, disappeared from the thread. So will you name them now?

KL911,

Why do you always have to critize people?

You'll notice that the one I'm always criticizing is Jwenting. I have good reasons to do so. The man has a history of making claims out of the blue, which are never substantiated in the least bit. When it suits him, he even makes 'facts' up, things no-one else has ever heard about. He's been called out numerous times for his lies and unsubstantiated claims, both here and in non-av. Every single time, he runs and hides.

Jwenting is right that KLM is being murdered by AF

How do you know? What has AF done so far that indicates they are planning to 'murder' KLM?

like they killed everything else they tookover.

Same request for you as for Jwenting: Please name the airlines that AF took over, sucked dry and then forced into bankruptcy. Names.

If you don't believe me, KL911, please take a close look at Jwenting's posting history. It'll all become clear.
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:24 pm

So... a whole day has passed since I asked you to back up your claims. Since then the silence on here has been deafening...

Since neither Jwenting nor KL911 have answered, do I take it from that that you are unable to do so?
 
globetrekker
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:11 pm

I think that was a correct assumption Scorpio. Ones again Jwenting just disappeared....... Nuts

GlobeTrekker
The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
 
mozart
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:30 pm

Scorpio, jwenting, KL911,

I am neutral about jwenting's posting history on this forum, I have not stumbled across him before. Still I agree that his remarks are strong on polemic and weak on facts.

Still, I would like to bring up the "fate" of two airlines Air France has taken over: UTA and Air Inter. Now, both these names do not exist any longer, as they have been fully integrated into Air France, BUT - did AF let them go bankrupt? Did AF "murder" them? Of course not, UTA's African network was integrated into AF's and today still exists as an important and very profitable piece in AF's network. Air Inter was bought up by Air France (after code-sharing had existed for some time I believe), and then some time later the branding was changed into Air France. Still, many planes from the IT fleet still fly with AF, and of course rather than murdering IT and its legacy AF now serves these routes. As a matter of fact, since AF integrated IT there have been many new French domestic routes, providing better choice for travelers (the network is no longer as Paris-centered as it used to be). In sum: AF integrated two airlines, but kept the legacy intact and adopted it to market conditions over time.

So, dear friends from the Netherlands, although you could have used these two examples of airlines being bought up by AF, you didn't. Either because you did not think of them - which makes me doubt how much you really know about AF and its corporate history - or you deliberately chose not to mention them, as the only fact-based reasoning is the one I outlined above: AF does integrate, but not "murder" other airlines. And mind you, the fact that the UT and IT names have disappeared does not necessarily mean the KL name will disappear. It is quite a different matter to change a name of another French company into "Air France" and to call a foreign airline "Air France". Even the French aren't that dumbly nationalistic.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:31 pm

Which ones? You claimed in another thread that AF sucked every airline it ever bought dry and forced it into bankruptcy. Several posters here asked you to name those airlines. Despite having no doubt read those posts, you, as you always do, disappeared from the thread. So will you name them now?

Czech Airlines have pretty negative experience with AF. In early nineties they tried a joint-venture together, but it only lasted some six months during which OK took a nosedive into red numbers. But that was before privatization of Air France.
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:18 am

Mozart,

Thank you very much. Jwenting and KL911 could actually not have used those two examples, as they clearly show them wrong. Jwenting claimed repeatedly that the AF tactic was to 'suck them dry, move all the assets to AF, fire the employees and force them into bankruptcy'. That was clearly not the case with either UTA or Air Inter.

L410Turbolet,

Czech Airlines have pretty negative experience with AF. In early nineties they tried a joint-venture together, but it only lasted some six months during which OK took a nosedive into red numbers. But that was before privatization of Air France.

I believe this occurred around the same time AF had a minority stake in Sabena, which was later dropped. I read the biography of the Sabena CEO of the time, Pierre Godfroid, who goes into detail about the co-operation with Air France. Between the times AF took stakes in SN and in OK, and the time the relationship went sour, there was a management change at AF. Attali, CEO of AF at that time, wanted to build a strong partnership between AF, SN and OK. However, at that time AF itself was losing tons of money, and for that reason Attali was fired, and replaced with Blanc. Blanc did not believe in co-operating with SN and OK, he wanted to focus on making AF healthy (and who can blame him?). Thus the partnerships with both carriers were left to linger, and eventually ended.

Before our friend Jwenting gets ideas from this, let me tell you that the situation now is entirely different than the situation then: AF is now a healthy company taking over another healthy company. Back then AF was a sick company taking over another sick company.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:44 pm

Re: Czech Airlines have pretty negative experience with AF.

They seem to have a happier relationship now - OK is in Skyteam with AF, and they operate a lot of codeshare together.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:21 am

I would really like to know where Jwenting spends his summer......... Is he, like the majority of the Dutch, also on vacation in France? Big grin

BTW, we Dutch aren't the nicest people around when it comes on takeovers... We do have a history of killing companies ourselfs (takeovers by ABN-Amro Bank, Unilever, Philips etc).

We Dutch are good in business and that is how we need to see the KLM/AF merger, as business!

Now, back into the sun, while it's still shining here in Holland...

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:33 am

Jwentling,

You continually drop negative AF/KL remarks bases on no facts. When called on this you disappear from the topic. Two examples I think of off hand are your statment that KLM F/A had to wear AF scarves and that AF had forced KLM to drop a route to South America.

Both these errors were pointed out to you and we never heard from you again.

Can you back up your statement that "AF may not have the funds to bribe the US into submission" with any history at all?
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6147
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:50 am

Re: Czech Airlines have pretty negative experience with AF.

They seem to have a happier relationship now - OK is in Skyteam with AF, and they operate a lot of codeshare together.


I guess the sentence should've been "...negative experince with AF investment". But again, that was a decade ago, when both AF and OK were completely different airlines - for the worse in both cases.
I think OK is doing just fine in SkyTeam, enjoying much better and equal status then they'd get in OW or Star.
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:08 am

As far as I am concerned there appears to be no indication at all of any imminent merger or for that matter of any long term merger of of the seperate KLM and Air France business units of the new combined airline. I fail entirely to see what the point would be in consolidating the AF and KL operations into a new airline.

If it does occur (8 years down the road) I expect that the new combined corporate identity would be some typical European nonsense, with a big ugly looking EU flag on the tail, and a totally bland cosmopolitan identity...

However, hopefully executives will instead opt to retain the much livelier, nationalistic KLM and Air France branding which conveys so much of the image of the respective countries served.

One thing that won't happen is a rebranding of KLM as Air France or visa versa. Nor is a closure of AMS likely; AMS is a huge O&D market and one of the largest hubs in the world, and AF/KL realizes this and also recognize that if they did shut down AMS or CDG for that matter someone else would move in, in a big way.

The new KLM/CO/NW membership in Skyteam is exciting. Finally Skyteam will truly be a world class alliance rather than a mere collection of slightly mismatched airlines that gave one the impression of being the "leftovers" from oneworld and Star Alliance. Now, as of this, Skyteam will become the second largest alliance, and the increasingly disorganized oneworld will (deservedly, based on the anticompetitive history of its three largest members) take last place.

-WGW2707
 
Tolosy
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:14 am

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:33 am

Scorpio and Mozart,

Welcome on my Respected Users list.

Thanks for reminding us what Air France has done.

I am fed up to read the same BULLSH.. everyday about AF.

Your comments are neutral but make a point.

Nick
 
A388
Posts: 7948
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:29 am

Amen to that Tolosy,

Scorpio and Mozart told a good story on AF. I couldn't add much more to that. I wish both KL and AF all the best of course. Scorpio and Mozart, I have also added you in my respected users list  Wink/being sarcastic

Regards A388
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:49 am

Just to make clear... Scorpio, Mozart and JGPH1A made it to my RR-list today....... We French, Belgium and Dutch need to stand together...........  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 758
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: KLM Skyteam Logo Next To Cockpitwindow!

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:51 am

KLM as an entity, both in operations name, and as a subsidiary corporation will hand around at least until the EU takes over all of the openskies and bilateral agreements.

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