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F4N
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:26 am

To all:

I sincerely hope none of you really thought the 777 had any chance
of getting this order. More interesting, of course, is Sir Richard's comment on how the 346 was ordered [in part] because of all the British jobs it will create.

I suppose that in keeping with that same public spirit we will be hearing of the Virgin USA 737 order soon... Innocent

regards,

F4N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:30 am

More interesting, of course, is Sir Richard's comment on how the 346 was ordered [in part] because of all the British jobs it will create

Rather jaded claim however...

...he's been towing that line ever since BA launched the GE90 a decade ago.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
rwylie77
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:31 am

Branson will never say he bought these because they were cheaper, he is always going to put a positive spin that is in line with their marketing. There is no doubt that he bought these because they were cheaper.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:32 am

More interesting, of course, is Sir Richard's comment on how the 346 was ordered [in part] because of all the British jobs it will create

Rather jaded claim however...

...he's been towing that line ever since BA launched the GE90 a decade ago.



more like he said it as he knows that the Britsh press willl pick up on it, giving him free column inches.

he's not a silly man you know...........
 
gearup
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:36 am

RRfan,

.......I'm sorry to say this, but it is the best aircraft available for Virgins needs. Don't be sorry man, you are correct. The so-called superiority of the B777 is more myth than fact. I hope this puts an end to all the ".....XXXX airlines are not happy with their 340-600's nonsense". Well done Virgin, well done Airbus. If I had my choice of a quad or a twin fro transoceanic flight, give me the quad any day!

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:38 am

More interesting, of course, is Sir Richard's comment on how the 346 was ordered [in part] because of all the British jobs it will create.

Well good for Branson, my home town also being home to RR, i'm very pleased to hear the news of 100 new engine orders. Not forgetting the wing production facilities also in the UK, now add the extra jobs for flight crew, cabin crew, ops and maintenance personell, it's all good for the UK economy, no doubt about that!

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
kl911
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:42 am

Gearup,

''The so-called superiority of the B777 is more myth than fact. I hope this puts an end to all the ".....XXXX airlines are not happy with their 340-600's nonsense"

Very well said! Very good for Airbus!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

The so-called superiority of the B777 is more myth than fact.

To further clarify:

The 777's ability to outperform respective A340s in almost all performance specifications in typical operations, is unadulterated fact...

...the belief that the above fact alone is sufficient for every airline to choose the twin over the quad is however myth.

[Edited 2004-08-05 20:04:06]
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NW7E7
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:54 am

 Sad It would have been nice to see the 777 in VS colors!!!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:54 am

thank goodness. Now i can confirm i will never fly VS.
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LHR27C
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:01 am

Not a great surprise since it makes the most sense from all sides of VS: reduced training costs and maintenance from not introducing a whole new fleet type, continuing the 4 engines 4 long haul idea, cockpit commonality... given a few years to settle in no doubt the 346 is performing up to VS' standards, so why change? The 777's operational and economical advantages over the A340, whilst certainly no "myth", are not enough to sway a long established A340 customer with a selling point of using all 4 engined aircraft  Big grin. Still, some of the Airbus propaganda: the A340-600 is the most advanced aircraft flying today - urgh.

Hope to see a big SQ order for Boeing soon. What with EY and VS it seems Airbus has had pick of the bunch recently...
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
jasepl
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:02 am

Now i can confirm i will never fly VS

Really? Just because they ordered Airbus? And an aircraft that was clearly better for them than others offered? How sad. Really.
 
mark777300
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:04 am

The idea that Branson claims that 20% of passengers will go out of their way to fly an aircraft with four engines rather than two engines is ludacris. I guess that must translate that the other half consisting of 80% would probably not have any idea as to how many engines are on their airplanes or simply don't care like myself. I'm really curious to find out how many people on this forum have in the past gone out of their way to book a flight on an aircraft with four engines?????? I have booked flights on certain aircrafts but only to get the chance to fly that type, not because I felt that it was safer or better because of the amount of engines. In actuality, It's been no secret that Branson has a fondness for the A346. He has mentioned it quite a few times in the past that it is one of his favorite aircrafts. The most likely reason for the descision is based on that as well as a good price offered by Airbus. Hands down, many airlines will go after a sweet deal over the descision of choosing an aircraft that fits it's needs best. I still remember the IB order for the A346 and how obvious it became that IB was looking for the sweetest deal. On one last note, last I checked, the performance comparisons of the 773ER vs the A346 are not myth, so I'm not quite sure as to where the myth part came into this?
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:15 am

The A340-600 is one of my favorite aircraft, and so far the best user of them in terms of cabin outfitting, et cetera seems to be Virgin. Virgin's existing A340-600 cabins feature beautiful, large PTV screens, and I presume the new deliveries will feature these as well.
Nothing about the cabin is unique to the 346. A 343 could have it, a 747 could have it, heck BA could have it!  Nuts

I sincerely hope none of you really thought the 777 had any chance
of getting this order.

Only those that are properly informed and/or do not read the forums.  Big grin

Hope to see a big SQ order for Boeing soon. What with EY and VS it seems Airbus has had pick of the bunch recently...
I agree, and I am anxiously waiting for the SQ Boeing order. I believe that Ethiad was the "pick of the bunch recently", not Mayan World Airlines.  Big grin

Not a great surprise since it makes the most sense from all sides of VS: reduced training costs and maintenance from not introducing a whole new fleet type
I agree, and I do not understand why so many people do not understand that.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:18 am

Jase from India - not at all the reason. So before you judge me on how sad I am, why not look in the mirror.

Please do not comment unless you know what someone is talking about.

Thanks.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:20 am

Now i can confirm i will never fly VS.

Wow, I bet SRB will lose sleep over that!  Laugh out loud
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brons2
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:26 am

The 777's operational and economical advantages over the A340, whilst certainly no "myth", are not enough to sway a long established A340 customer with a selling point of using all 4 engined aircraft

Those operational advantages are negated by the 777's MUCH higher asking price. I must openly wonder when Boeing is going to get off their high horse and compete on price.

Still, with an existing A346 fleet, I didn't see Boeing getting this order anyways, so no great loss. I imagine that Sir Richard merely talked to Boeing in an attempt to make Airbus go lower.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
bjg231
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:40 am

"Those operational advantages are negated by the 777's MUCH higher asking price. I must openly wonder when Boeing is going to get off their high horse and compete on price."

Better products have bigger premiums. You don't see Mercedes lowering it's prices to compete with Kia. Now I'm not trying to compare Airbus to Kia, but the fact that the 777 outperforms the A340 in many respects allows Boeing to charge a higher price for their aircraft sales. So for example, if a 777-300er costs 30 million more than an A340-600 and Airbus happens to win a few orders because its cheaper, Boeing still gets 30 million more per aircraft with every other 777-300er sale. Why lose money on one sale to Virgin when they easily make it up with every other 777 (satisfied) customer?
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varig md-11
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:41 am

from Virgin press release:

The aircraft is powered by four Rolls Royce Trent 500 engines each delivering 56,000lb of thrust. The aircraft is almost precisely 50% British built. The engines are built by Rolls Royce in Derby and the wings manufactured by Airbus–UK, Broughton. The final assembly takes place at Toulouse.

in those times of job relocations this is helping VS getting a "good citizen" image UK while making a deal described as unbeatable with Airbus...
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keesje
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:47 am

Ok I going to make a difficult statement here...

Perhaps the 340-600 is also a better aircraft..

777 outperforms A346  Sleepy  Sleepy

well isn´t any 2 engined aircraft a little overpowered because of 1 engine take-off and climb out requirements ? pls folks wake up ..

Airlines find sfc, noise, range, passenger/cargo capasity & cockpit commonality more interesting...



"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JAL777
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:53 am

Virgin Atlantic chose planes from Airbus, the world's largest maker of commercial aircraft, over those from Boeing Co. because passengers prefer the four engines of the A340s to the two engines on Boeing's 777, Branson said in an interview.

Oh please... 99.8% of passenger coming off an aircraft have no idea how many engines the plane had.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:55 am

keesje

dat kan niet maar....I agree with you  Wink/being sarcastic

cargo capabilities seem to be very interesting, and the cabin 2-4-2 has been described more user friendly than 3-3-3 or 2-5-2
and please no A vs B....
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:01 am

The idea that Branson claims that 20% of passengers will go out of their way to fly an aircraft with four engines rather than two engines is ludacris.

Actually, that idea is ludicrous.


...THIS is Ludacris:


 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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hoya
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:18 am

Just a thought here, but could it also be possible that Branson picked the 340-600 over the 773er to differentiate VS from BA? BA has a huge fleet of 777s but no A340s.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
soaringadi
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:18 am

****"About 20 percent of passengers will go out of their way for four engines''****

Wow !!! this is the most awesome thing I've heard. I guess those 20 % should be educated.... And lets just hope that out of those 20 % 10 % aren't any kids saying "Mommy that plane has 4 engines, thats why we should fly on that."

I wish United, and Delta knew these things so that they would atleast fix 2 more fake engines to attract "20 %" more passengers.

And also let Branson know that this is the land where people have balls enough to fly on 2 engine..... or else he might start worrying about "Virgin U.S.A."

[Edited 2004-08-05 22:20:24]
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:25 am

I wish United, and Delta knew these things so that they would atleast fix 2 more fake engines to attract "20 %" more passengers.

ROFL!  Big thumbs up
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gearup
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:25 am

.....Better products have bigger premiums. You don't see Mercedes lowering it's prices to compete with Kia. Now I'm not trying to compare Airbus to Kia, but the fact that the 777 outperforms the A340 in many respects allows Boeing to charge a higher price for their aircraft sales. So for example, if a 777-300er costs 30 million more than an A340-600 and Airbus happens to win a few orders because its cheaper, Boeing still gets 30 million more per aircraft with every other 777-300er sale. Why lose money on one sale to Virgin when they easily make it up with every other 777 (satisfied) customer?
. This is too simplistic. They are an incredible number of factors into determining what aircraft is better for a particular operator's needs. When the numbers are all crunched the 777 will come out tops for one operator's criteria and the A346/5/3 for another. I said the 777's superiority is more myth than fact because the 777 will not always come out on top as some people seem to think. Of course much of this nonsense about the superiority of the 777 and the 'problems of the A346 is mere patriotic hokus-pokus! As for the KIA/Mercedes example, I have news for you. I work in the auomotive industry and I can tell you that KIA are winning a lot more accolades for their vehicles right now than Mercedes are. Even GM are cleaning Mercedes' clocks for quality in their vehicles. Prestige aside, The majority of Mercedes cars are not worth the money for what you get. When one looks at the warranty, quality and cost of the KIA, it is way better value for money and is therefore the better vehicle! To oversimplify things again, if the quantitive and qualitive differences are not enormous, the least expensive option is often way more cost-effective. One has to look at the aggregate effect of all the factors and guess what, in VS case, the A346 is THE SUPERIOR AIRCRAFT!

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
F4N
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:46 am

Gearup:

I would tend to agree that most of the premises participants here use for drawing conclusions are gross over-simplifications. However, I also believe that this particular order simply came down to price. Airbus has an advantage in that the 346 is already established in VS service, but Branson certainly was not going to let Airbus sit on their laurals and tell VS how much to make the check out for. He certainly intended to auction off the business to whomever gave him the lowball. If Boeing had done that, VS would have gone T7. In these cases however, Airbus almost always wins since they seem far more willing to price aggressively.

People can argue the merits/liabilities of a particular series of a/c all they want; it changes nothing. If a customer is buying only on price, well, you can talk up the "premium product" stuff all you want. At the end of the day, price wins.

regards,

F4N
 
col
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:56 am

F4N. Have to agree, right aircraft at the right price. Airbus seem to have the Market value established better than Boeing at present. Airlines are not making the money to spend $30m extra per copy on a 773ER.

 
brons2
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:02 am

Better products have bigger premiums. You don't see Mercedes lowering it's prices to compete with Kia. Now I'm not trying to compare Airbus to Kia, but the fact that the 777 outperforms the A340 in many respects allows Boeing to charge a higher price for their aircraft sales. So for example, if a 777-300er costs 30 million more than an A340-600 and Airbus happens to win a few orders because its cheaper, Boeing still gets 30 million more per aircraft with every other 777-300er sale. Why lose money on one sale to Virgin when they easily make it up with every other 777 (satisfied) customer?

To press your operational advantage, that's why.

The problem for Boeing is that they are not only losing the initial sale, but follow on sales as well for other aircraft types. They need to stop the bleeding, and they need to come off their high horse a bit. They make good planes, but point blank they are getting outmanouvered by Airbus in the sales arena right now.

Ok I going to make a difficult statement here...

Keesje, it's not a difficult statement for you, because you've never said anything objective on this board, ever!
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:04 am

Just a thought here, but could it also be possible that Branson picked the 340-600 over the 773er to differentiate VS from BA? BA has a huge fleet of 777s but no A340s.
Nah. Worst case scenario if VS gets the 777: VS gets BA passengers.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I guess those 20 % should be educated.... And lets
I take it that you are a part of that 20%?  Big grin

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
brons2
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:09 am

'problems of the A346 is mere patriotic hokus-pokus!

I would argue that the A346 doesn't have any problems per se, just that the 773ER has superior payload/range peformance. Unfortunately, Boeing is way too proud of this fact, and Airbus is able to offset any performance disadvantage with a lower price, probably low enough that when purchase price is factored in, the A346 may be cheaper to operate.. Fact being, the A346 is a plenty capable plane for most operators.

Boeing has overhauled their CEO, now it's time for an overhaul of the sales department.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:10 am

I'm part of the 20%.

It may be irrational, but I will always prefer 4 engines for long flights.

Would I pay extra? Yes - depending on how much.

More importantly, perhaps, I prefer VS service to that of BA. Or UA. Or DL.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
brons2
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:14 am

No Mariner, you're one person out of 84 posts so far. Not 20%.

What's funny about all this, is that if Airbus develops the A330 NG, they will definitely have twins that can fly a long, long way.

I guess Branson won't buy them.

(for that matter, NW is flying the existing A332 over the North Pacific).
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
rongotai
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:16 am

I have no idea whether Branson is correct with his numbers on passengers preferring quads, but some of the responses here miss the point. I personally am aware of four large companies that specify quad engined airlines for long over water routes all other things being equal. For example when UA still flew to AKL those companies shifted from UA to QF/NZ for AKL-LAX when UA moved to the 777.

The employees of these companies may not have known how many engines their plane had, but the people who made their bookings did. And these were high yield business class customers.

This may all seem crazy, but for those companies it is simple risk management. When the fare differential is virtually zero, and the timetables are virtually identical, then marginal risk factors come into play in decision making
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:20 am

Brons2:

I'm used to being a minority of one.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
crewrest
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:37 am

Alitalia744

Don't knock VS until you've tried it; you might like it.

(especially since VS operate 5 'Alitalia744' ex LGW)
 
widebody
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:45 am

Once again the logic and knowledge on this board outdoes itself....

When you buy an aircraft, you do your calculations. Your routes, your cargo, your pax, your fuel costs, your overheads, your revenue and so on over a specific time period. You do your calculations for the aircraft that are available to you and you pick the one that is going to make you the most money over your time period. You add in all the other other factors and you get your deal.

The A340-600 may be 30MUSD cheaper than a 777, but that 30MUSD is no good to you if it costs you 50MUSD more over the aircraft operating life.

You do your calculation and you pick what makes you money according to your criteria. Sometimes A346, sometimes 777.
 
soaringadi
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:00 am

****"I guess those 20 % should be educated.... And lets
I take it that you are a part of that 20%?"****

Why are you getting so pissed off ? Are you also one of those who thinks that they are better off flying on 4 engines rather than 2 ?? Just b/c. there is an extra engine on either side doesn't always mean that you'll reach your destination safely.... Actually there is an increased chance of engine fire, or failure, or any other engine related problems since you have more engines to worry about.

And if all the 4 engine crap was right, then wouldn't the MD-11 beat the trip. 7 ??

Also if you read the statistics you'll se that there has never been a fatal incident with the 777.

And the reason why I say that those people should be educated is that these people are often the ones that think a Boeing only means a jumbo/747. Also some of these don't even know where the engines actually are... Hey if you don't know anything about the arcrft. atleast have faith in the captain who's not that insane to fly with you on a long haul, and realize in between that they are short of fuel.

***** "You do your calculation and you pick what makes you money according to your criteria. Sometimes A346, sometimes 777" ****

Do you really think Branson did all those calculations before going for the 346 ???  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


[Edited 2004-08-06 00:03:04]
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
bjg231
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:02 am

Gearup (and company),

You're missing the point of my statement. I'm not trying to argue that VS made a bad move by going for Airbus, in fact I never doubted their decision to choose the A340, it makes economical sense in their situation. My "oversimplified" comparison was a response to brons' statement that Boeing needs to price the 777 more competitively with the A340. They have no reason to. If Boeing makes more money by charging a premium for their widebody, then why on earth would they lower the price?

"As for the KIA/Mercedes example, I have news for you. I work in the automotive industry and I can tell you that KIA are winning a lot more accolades for their vehicles right now than Mercedes are."

First of all, are you trying to argue that Kia has better quality products than Mercedes? Or are you trying to say that Kia is improving and offering more value for the money?

No one would argue that Mercedes vehicles, when competitively priced, would not easily surpass anything that Kia could offer in terms of quality and performance. IMO, I agree that Kia has improved its quality and offers a great value for the money.

Now back to my "oversimplified" analogy. I'm not arguing that Airbus hasn't improved over the years and failed to offer great products for the price, THEY HAVE. All I'm trying to argue is that the 777, when compared with an A340 of EQUAL PRICE, will exceed the Airbus' performance and overall value. Now, when Boeing prices the 777 as 30 million more than the Airbus, they open a gray area, where airlines choose what aircraft best fits their needs, weighing price as an issue. In VS's case, it made great economical sense to choose the cheaper aircraft with no transition cost. Customers will always choose what makes the best economical sense for their company (sometimes the A340, sometimes the 777).

Would Boeing benefit by pricing the plane 30 million cheaper? Of course not. Nor would Mercedes benefit by pricing their C-Class at $16,000 to compete with a Kia.

Last year, Kia posted an operational profit increase of 3.3% by offering affordable, value oriented vehicles. This year, DaimlerChrysler posted a 225% operating profit increase by apparently overpricing their high quality luxury vehicles. In this case (and perhaps in others as well), quantity isn't always more important than quality.

Finally, let me reiterate what I had said earlier. I'm not trying to say that Airbus and Boeing are as distinct as Mercedes and Kia, in fact they are much more similar in quality. I'm just using it as an "oversimplified" example to prove a point.
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:07 am

Soaringadi, I made the comment "I take it that you are a part of that 20%?" because you wrote "lets", leaving out the apostrophe.

Apostrophes really do cause problems.  Big grin


-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Hirnie
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:09 am

All I read from a lot of people in here is that Airbus is selling the A346 only because of low price...
Hey, who the f... cares? They sell their products, make money and deliver the most airframes a year! And don`t come with subsidizes now, everybody knows that both, B and A are subsidized in some way.

Another thing I have to say is that I like Boeing and Airbus, but I can`t stand all this dirt thrown on non US-manufacturers from some people because of patriotic reasons.

Wish all of you many happy landings...
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:43 am

thank goodness. Now i can confirm i will never fly VS.

What a wonderfully intelligent comment. You're missing out if you refuse to fly on VS, they have one of the best services in the air! Oh well, your loss!  Big grin

Oh please... 99.8% of passenger coming off an aircraft have no idea how many engines the plane had.

And that's why some surveys have indicated that 1 in 4 passengers prefer 4 engines over 2.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
widebody
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2000 5:08 pm

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:44 am

"Do you really think Branson did all those calculations before going for the 346 ???"

Do you really think he didn't?! Or do he think he wouldn'y be personally involved?! For that kinda money! Pricing forms one of the key elements of the calculations, would he go for A346 when he could make more money with the 777? Would any company?!

You weigh up the package, acquisition costs, operational costs, maintenance costs, warranty periods....and you see which one is best for you.........

 
irishpower
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:18 am

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:50 am

Rongotai, you said--

"I personally am aware of four large companies that specify quad engined airlines for long over water routes all other things being equal. For example when UA still flew to AKL those companies shifted from UA to QF/NZ for AKL-LAX when UA moved to the 777."


Which four companies are you speaking of? I know a bunch of companies (more than 4) who want the cheapest ticket for their traveling employees.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:09 am

Do you really think he didn't?! Or do he think he wouldn'y be personally involved?!

He will have had to be VERY involved. RB can't just go out and buy what he wants any more.

This deal will have had to be costed out to the last cent, justified by Virgin and approved by its second biggest shareholder, SQ. That 49% stake isn't exactly a sleeping partner arrangement.

I suppose I'd better eat some crow too as I was convinced this deal would be a 777 or joint type order with the A346. As for fleet, those 744s are a mix with some older than others. As with the A343 their leases will expire sooner or later so the A346/A380 mix looks to be their replacement.

Others have been delivered with the GECAS Boeing code Q8 rather than 1R, so leases for them may even be different or shorter than previously. Who knows just how their 744 fleet might pan out.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:09 am

Do you really think he didn't?! Or do he think he wouldn'y be personally involved?! For that kinda money! Pricing forms one of the key elements of the calculations, would he go for A346 when he could make more money with the 777? Would any company?!
I remember reading about those calculations in 2003, so I do not believe that the calculations were done for the order.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1868
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:28 am

"...True, but the VS fleet is being utilized pretty heavily, so I would be surprised to see ORD and Toronto come back."

Don't know how heavily utilized they are if they could be doing chaters as well. This to me indicates possible additional utilization

Passengers could easily fly from the Carolinas to IAD, NYC, or BOS and take a flight from there.
Sure they could, but why? when they could just drive to the Airport in RDU and leave their car there and take a VS flight.  Big grin

VS is partners with DL, BA already has a flight into ATL, and with most ATL passengers connecting from other cities, I am not expecting to see VS at ATL.

What does this have to do with anything? They only have a FF agreement with DL. Competetition is the name of the game. They did start flying to ORD a UA/AA stronghold. One of the places they want to fly is DXB. I see no reason why ATL should be avoided.

I would imagine that VS could make a lot more money on other routes, including the ones that it plans to start, compared to some North American cities.
Well it is left to be seen what happens. I say go where there is a strong business traffic. Especially if the area is being served by a not so "good" airline



Branson will never say he bought these because they were cheaper, he is always going to put a positive spin that is in line with their marketing. There is no doubt that he bought these because they were cheaper.

Rwylie, I so agree with you. I'm looking forward to asking several pilots about the deal.  Smile
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:39 am

"...True, but the VS fleet is being utilized pretty heavily, so I would be surprised to see ORD and Toronto come back."

Don't know how heavily utilized they are if they could be doing chaters as well. This to me indicates possible additional utilization

They do very few charters, and one LHR 744 is going to replace the MAN 742s and that subtracts from the LHR/LGW utilization.

Passengers could easily fly from the Carolinas to IAD, NYC, or BOS and take a flight from there.
Sure they could, but why? when they could just drive to the Airport in RDU and leave their car there and take a VS flight.

True, but what is the demand in the Carolinas? AA's RDU-LGW has been mentioned as the "ghost route".

VS is partners with DL, BA already has a flight into ATL, and with most ATL passengers connecting from other cities, I am not expecting to see VS at ATL.

What does this have to do with anything? They only have a FF agreement with DL. Competetition is the name of the game. They did start flying to ORD a UA/AA stronghold. One of the places they want to fly is DXB. I see no reason why ATL should be avoided.

True about the FF thing, but there are still two others reasons about ATL to which you have responded to.

I would imagine that VS could make a lot more money on other routes, including the ones that it plans to start, compared to some North American cities.
Well it is left to be seen what happens. I say go where there is a strong business traffic. Especially if the area is being served by a not so "good" airline

VS has plans for the next few years, and North America really is not included in things. I say that things will pretty much remain the same until the 380s come around.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1868
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: Virgin Confirm 26 A346 13 Firm +13

Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:55 am

more like he said it as he knows that the Britsh press willl pick up on it, giving him free column inches.

he's not a silly man you know...........
hmmmmmmmmmm I seem to recall something about dressing up as a female F/A... If that's not silly don't know what is



whoever said this.."thank goodness. Now i can confirm i will never fly VS."
Chile you don't know what u missing. VS provides one of the best services


Bjg231 your email to Gearup (and company),
It's so weird. I got what you were saying immediately. Interesting why G&C didn't.

Hirnie "All I read from a lot of people in here is that Airbus is selling the A346 only because of low price...
Hey, who the f... cares? They sell their products, make money and deliver the most airframes a year! And don`t come with subsidizes now, everybody knows that both, B and A are subsidized in some way.

Don't think so. AB is heavily subsidized. That is a proven fact. Where is it proven that Boeing is. hmmmmmm are you talking about the tanker deal?

Another thing I have to say is that I like Boeing and Airbus, but I can`t stand all this dirt thrown on non US-manufacturers from some people because of patriotic reasons.

This is silly - this has nothing to do with patriotism, unless u are referring to your self and GearUp and the rest. I am actually English and I prefer Boeing jets. Just like I prefer my BMW to a Chevrolet or a mini.

Go Boeing, GO!!




“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~

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