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744
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:41 am

US aircrafts shouldn't have BROWN/CHOCOLATELY colored COCKPITS as it runis the entire presentation of the FLIGHT DECK like a 747-400. I hope that they are light grey like Airbus. Also the cabin inside an A320 looks better than a 737.
 
usatoeze
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:17 am

US aircrafts shouldn't have BROWN/CHOCOLATELY colored COCKPITS as it runis the entire presentation of the FLIGHT DECK like a 747-400. I hope that they are light grey like Airbus. Also the cabin inside an A320 looks better than a 737.

Que?

I dont know if you are serious or joking but I laughed anyway.
War is a very poor political tool
 
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glideslope
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:52 am

Due to the fact that Boeing has become such a huge global aerospace company, perhaps being the leader in commercial aviation is not as important as it once was? Boeing could see itself as say the BMW, or Volvo of the commercial aircraft world. Airbus and others could be the Honda, or Toyota of commercial aviation.

Look at how many airframe manufacturers in the 100 + seat range will be in place 10-15 years from now. At least 4, perhaps 6.

Personally I think Boeing is looking way past the Airbus/Boeing rivalry.

I think they are right where they want to be in their development schedule. I'll wager they would even be happy with 40% of the 100+ seat commercial market. Anyone who looks at the parts content of these airframes should realize that everyone is already joined at the hip, so to speak.

Market share is important up to a point. It is clear that up to this point Boeing is not willing to prostitute their pricing at all costs.

In the long run this will result in a stronger company.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:19 am

I want a next generation SST up and running within the next 5- 10 years!!

Whoa some one's having a tantrum  Insane
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Greg
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:54 am

Boeing already said (get a media password and read their speeches online) that the new 737 will bow in about 2012.

Airbus has great products--but they hardly control the industry. Boeing has made more 737's than Airbus has produced their entire product line....

Again, that should put it in perspective.

 
Klaus
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Greg

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:59 am

Greg: Airbus has great products--but they hardly control the industry. Boeing has made more 737's than Airbus has produced their entire product line....

Sure. But there´s reason why has-been isn´t exactly a coveted title...  Wink/being sarcastic

Boeing needs to get their act together again, and they know it. Good luck!
 
a380900
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:00 am

Glideslope,

Basically, you agree with me. If through subsidies and good engineering Airbus has made the airliners business less profitable than it should be for Boeing then, there is nothing wrong with Boeing leaving this market little by little. Indeed leaving the entire jumbo jet market segment to Airbus for starters is in this case the right thing to do. Boeing is a cost conscious private business.

My point was that if you take the bigger view, giving somehow to Boeing the help it needs to update its product line might be a wise thing to do for the US because a lot of economic activity is at stake.

If Boeing is not helped, they will continue to invest relatively less than Airbus and in the end, they will lose more and more market share. Somehow, I doubt politicians will let that happen. If you like airliners you should wish that Boeing, somehow helped by the US government (or the Japanese gvt as it seems to be doing for the 7E7), will rise to Airbus challenge.
 
airways6max
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:14 am

I agree that there should be a 7E7 deritative to replace the 737. Then Boeing should roll out a four-engined version of the 7E7 to replace the 747. The A380 can seat up to 555 passengers, but if the 747 is gone, there will be no new aircraft for the 400-500 seat market. In short, Boeing should develop the 7E7 into a family of aircraft, similar to the strategy of Airbus.
 
737Captain
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:05 am

Can somebody please explain to me why A380900 is so proud that Airbus owes it's so called "success" in producing commercial aircraft to none other than their own government! They might as well call it FranceBus. I don't know about you, but I can't be proud of something I achieved if I was helped, or if it was given to me. I also might ask where you get off posting an obvious attempted Boeing-bashing topic- I can't recall anybody posting such a topic aimed at Airbus. You people have such a short memory span....Ahem....WWII

God Bless America and Great Britain!!!!!!
"Why do you insist on man-pawing the glareshield everytime you climb up here?!"
 
kim777fan
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:28 am

"Can somebody please explain to me why A380900 is so proud that Airbus owes it's so called "success" in producing commercial aircraft to none other than their own government!"

You got me on that one. Why IS he so proud of that???

"You people have such a short memory span....Ahem....WWII"

I'm thinking without the B17 (and the extremely brave crews that flew them), Paris (AND To-Lose) would STILL have a red flag with a swastika emblem flying over those cities today.
 
a380900
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:42 am

737 captain and Kim777fan,

Where to begin? I understand that you would like to suppress any topic which states the mere fact that Boeing is selling less planes than Airbus these days. Get over it. I think it is an interesting topic that should be discussed on a forum about airliners.

I am trying to argue with people who want to, no to bark at anybody who says something I disagree with.
 
kim777fan
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:48 am

Who said anything about supressing the topic? I said your post was slanted and biased, and you did far more than just state that Airbus is (currently) selling more planes than Boeing.
 
gigneil
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:12 pm

Boeing is one company alone. It has branches of divisions that make up The Boeing Company.

Not really, no. Integrated Defense Systems and several other parts are wholly owned divisions of Boeing. They have different presidents and different rules.

Saying that Airbus doesn't benefit from EADS is very narrowsighted.

And whoever said that Boeing has sold more 737NGs than Airbus has total aircraft is a fool.

N
 
kim777fan
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:14 pm

Boeing has sold over 1500 737NG's and over 5000 737's altogether which is most definitely more sales than Airbus has sold in their entire history.
 
warren747sp
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:17 pm

Just order the damn 767 Tankers and Boeing will have the capital to develop new lines.
747SP
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:24 pm

I think they should move back HQ to Seattle from Chicago.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
bigb
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:33 pm

Indeed leaving the entire jumbo jet market segment to Airbus for starters is in this case the right thing to do.

I'm sure ya remember the DC-10 and Tristar battle. I wonder where Lockheed is at now with their commerical airliner business.

hmmm
 
kim777fan
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:36 pm

"I think they should move back HQ to Seattle from Chicago."

More obvoius words have never been spoken. God only knows what inspired THAT move.

As far as the tankers go, I thought at one time that was in fact a go, then there was that whole conflict of interest scandal story that broke last December.

Maybe the pentagon wants the new tanker with 7E7 technology rather than something from the old 767 line.
 
Spaceman
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:44 pm

A smart people is the one that knows their own limitations and when to get proper help. A proud people is who is never willing to change and budge, and finally finds extinction inevitable, but hey, at least they had a good run being proud.
 
IAHtown
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:58 pm

Ok, I think the point A380900 is trying to make is that Boeing is at such a disadvantage because it does not receive subsidized loans from the US government to initiate major commercial aircraft projects that the company will have to give up competing in certain segments of the commercial aviation market, such as the 400+ PAX market. Or something like that.

I thought the current push by European governments was to wean Airbus off of these subsidies so that money could be spent elsewhere. The point of them was to help the start-up Airbus become competitive with Boeing. Clearly that goal has been achieved.

Besides, subsidies aren't always helpful. Boeing has a much greater incentive than Airbus to be efficient and competitive. In the long-term, this will probably adversely affect the performance of Airbus. Even if it doesn't and Boeing can't keep up, Boeing is one of those companies that is effectively so big that the government can't let it fail. Uncle Sam will start dishing out subsidized loans left and right.
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:07 pm

Kim, I think it was personal gains for Mr Condit the Ex-CEO, that made the move to Chicago.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
kim777fan
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:32 pm

I'm still not conviced that the market for the A380 will be much more than a niche and that Boeing needs to be fighting over something like this.

The 747 was a phenomenon of an era when the so-called "long-thin" routes were not economically feasible, and there was a need for an aircraft with the range to connect people through a handful of major world gateways.

Now that aircraft like the B757, B767, B777, the future B7E7, the A300, the A310, the A330, and even the 4-engine A340 have come along and can make trans-oceanic flights point-to-point, much of that traffic has been siphoned off from the big gateways. Smaller aircraft are being developed that can reach just about anywhere in the world.

The 380 will probably make sense in some mega-markets such as in Asia where take-off & landing slots will be at a premium and it will be necessary to get as many people per slot as possible. Will it justify two companies slugging it out over a few hundred sales???? I'm not sure and I can see why Boeing isn't either.

Airport will need to modify their gates to accommodate the A380. Not many airports in the US have done so (I do not believe DTW has of yet, but someone can clarify.) The airport authority at LAX insists they will be ready for the A380, but I read an article in the LA Times that advised this may not be the case.
 
antares
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:39 pm

Boeing should produce jets with common cockpit systems (to the maximum extent practicable) and consistent exploitation of the promising technology being incorporated in the 7E7.

If the 7E7 contractors fail Boeing the way they did the Beech Starship 1 Boeing should put the program on hold and bring it all back under its control, urgently.

Boeing should exploit the brilliant configuration proposed for the 7J7 in its replacement for the 737 at the high end of capacity, ie, looking toward up to 220-240 seats to allow for growth in air transport in the near future.

Boeing should produce a regional jet family to take over not just RJ's and 717s but the current sized 737s up to the -600 or even -700.

It must have the same cockpit characteristic and piloting characteristics as all of its new jets.

Boeing should exploit its promising lead in Blended Wing Body research to produce a superb freighter...methinks there are a few too many problems in operational terms for including passengers in this concept, unless it is a very small BWB that doesn't turn being a passenger into a high G thrill ride whenever the think turns.

The line up, to be achieved over a 15 year period, would be

The RJ range (60-140 pax)

The 7J7 type range (170-220 pax)

The 7E7 range, as currently proposed

An upgraded 777 range.

A BWB freighter.

Why no VLA. That boat has left port already.
 
a380900
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:40 pm

IAHtown,

"Ok, I think the point A380900 is trying to make is that Boeing is at such a disadvantage because it does not receive subsidized loans from the US government to initiate major commercial aircraft projects that the company will have to give up competing in certain segments of the commercial aviation market, such as the 400+ PAX market. Or something like that."

So nice to feel understood!

"I thought the current push by European governments was to wean Airbus off of these subsidies so that money could be spent elsewhere. The point of them was to help the start-up Airbus become competitive with Boeing. Clearly that goal has been achieved."

Indeed. They can stop the subsidies now but they've worked so well that they have left Airbus with a dominant position after the A380 enters service. The problem is how does Boeing regain parity with Airbus (newer baby Boeing and new jumbo) without subsidies?
Besides subsidies do not explain everything. I think they have enabled Airbus but that this company is also making good planes and wise technological choices overall. I wouldn't say that Boeing has been wrong in any big choice except the crucial choice of investing too little in new airplanes in order to have shinier bottom lines in the short term.

"Besides, subsidies aren't always helpful. Boeing has a much greater incentive than Airbus to be efficient and competitive. In the long-term, this will probably adversely affect the performance of Airbus. Even if it doesn't and Boeing can't keep up, Boeing is one of those companies that is effectively so big that the government can't let it fail. Uncle Sam will start dishing out subsidized loans left and right."

They are now on an equal footing from a management point of view (public companies both needing equally to make profits). The problem is that the EU has stopped tutoring Airbus not when the two companies were at parity but once Airbus had an edge over Boeing. I mean when an entire new family of aircraft on average much younger than Boeing's was ready.
 
kim777fan
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:45 pm

What's a "VLA?" Very Large Aircraft???

If that's the case, I think that was a boat Boeing did not want to be on.
 
antares
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:55 pm

Kim777fan, You're right. But in the market forecast issued at Farnborough Boeing now predicts sales of 790 new large aircraft being of 747 size or larger by 2024.

So maybe I'm wrong and Boeing in the recent past was also wrong. There has been a subtle change of emphasis in their language about the merits of larger jets, although they do not embrace the need for really huge jets which is clearly the Airbus intent given the weight and stretchability of the base model.

It seems to me that there will be no advanced 747..a pity...but in the real world, it is a tough challenge and to date all of the quite promising derivatives on the 744 proposed by Boeing have been ignored.
 
a380900
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:01 pm

Kim777fan,

If what you say turns out to be right, then Boeing need not bother build a competitor to the A380. Their next logical move should be to replace the 737 asap and wait and see for the big bird. If Airbus starts selling A380s like hot cakes (which could happen 20 years from now... who knows?), then Boeing can react.

Antares,

Thanks, you're one of the first person to tackle the issue!

"Boeing should produce jets with common cockpit systems (to the maximum extent practicable) and consistent exploitation of the promising technology being incorporated in the 7E7."
Definitely, they should say: the 7E7 is the beginning of a new era for Boeing, like the A320 was for Airbus. That's why I like the name "808". I think they are worried that would reflect poorly on their existing airplanes. I disagree it would say: "bet on us, we are the future".


"If the 7E7 contractors fail Boeing the way they did the Beech Starship 1 Boeing should put the program on hold and bring it all back under its control, urgently."
What makes you think this might be happening?

"Boeing should exploit the brilliant configuration proposed for the 7J7 in its replacement for the 737 at the high end of capacity, ie, looking toward up to 220-240 seats to allow for growth in air transport in the near future."

If you say so... I don't remember the 7J7.


"The line up, to be achieved over a 15 year period, would be
The RJ range (60-140 pax)
The 7J7 type range (170-220 pax)
The 7E7 range, as currently proposed
An upgraded 777 range.
A BWB freighter.
Why no VLA. That boat has left port already."

Sounds like a plan. The freighter seems a bit far fetched though. What if Airbus makes a killing with the A380? Shouldn't they build their own in 10 years for instance? They'll be able to take advantage of the real life market study that the A380 is.

I, for one, never thought for one second that Boeing genuinely thought there was no market for a VLAs. It was just cheap shots at the A380 project. What they wanted was to cow Airbus into not building the aircraft, improve the 747 and continue their monopoly. Same thing with the 7E7, they artificially try to oppose it to the A380. As if BMW said something like: "my new serie 3 is going to be so much better than anything on the road before that our competitors (and us) will never sell a serie 7 size car anymore." Absolute non-sense.

Why don't they stick to "We're making a new plane and it's going to kick ass". That's no non-sense.

[Edited 2004-08-09 07:22:27]
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:11 pm

Kim, I think it was personal gains for Mr Condit the Ex-CEO, that made the move to Chicago.

No, Boeing wanted preferential treatement from the state of Washington, even though they have one of the most cushy positions in the state tax code. Washington said no, Boeing solicited to Denver, Dallas/Fort Worth and Chicago.. Chicago had a geographic advantage (close to all Boeing divisions), and the state paid for all moving expenses. If they want to freeze their asses off... fine by me  Big grin

ndeed. They can stop the subsidies now but they've worked so well that they have left Airbus with a dominant position after the A380 enters service. The problem is how does Boeing regain parity with Airbus (newer baby Boeing and new jumbo) without subsidies?

Rather easily... they are doing it right now. Boeing figured out that labor cost a whole lot, so they cut assembly time to 1/4 of a typical aircraft. They figured out what was expensive and outsourced it. They are sharing profit (and therefore risk) with a much greater number of companies at a much greater scale than in the past.

Market share is one thing, but profit is another. If Boeing can make a higher profit than Airbus/EADS (which I'm convinced they can) then they are in the stronger position. Also, Boeing lost a huge amount of ground on the basis of two simple primices that are not hard to understand-

A. Airbus has a more complete and common fleet than Boeing did in the early 1990s. By introducing three all-new products at once, Airbus temporarily overwhelemed Boeing.

Example- Boeing from around 1995-2010, Boeing did not have an effective 200-300 seat midsized widebody. This is a huge negative when trying to fleet plan with Boeing, regardless of the excellent 777.

B. Airbus' modern manufacturing processes are more efficent, leading to unit cost, allowing more leverage in pricing. A strong pricing advantage has helped Airbus win many orders. Airbus also can increase or decrease production more liberally

Example- Airbus has stormed the North American LCC market by capturing customers with both lower prices and rapid deliveres

----

Boeing has stated that they are moving to a three product line in the near/distant future. This will put them on par, and IMO, over Airbus in terms of optimum aircraft sizing. A 6-abreast for 130-190 seats, 8-abreast for 200-300 seats, and 9/10 abreast for 300-400 seats. Second, the new manufacturing techniques of the 7E7 will easily leapfrog those of Airbus, and give Boeing significant composite experience.

It will be an interesting future, but I for no reason believe Airbus will wipe Boeing or vice versa out.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:18 pm

It sure is a sad state of affairs at the once great Boeing Co. They should try and be more like Airbus... That is, build airplanes airlines want to buy at a price they want to pay. Boeing has relied on its monopoly for too long.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:35 pm

It sure is a sad state of affairs at the once great Boeing Co. They should try and be more like Airbus... That is, build airplanes airlines want to buy at a price they want to pay. Boeing has relied on its monopoly for too long.

Gahh... read the above posts. I think there are far more profound conclusions to come to than that buddy  Big grin
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
antares
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:36 pm

Kim777fan,

The 7J7 was a plan to exploit unducted fan technology in the mid 80s from memory. Certainly sometime in the 80s. The engine concept didn't work out, so the project died. I'm sure Google will pull up some good material on it.

However the configuration was fascinating. Coach was two by two by two, the idea being that in short to medium routes passenger turn around could be achieved very rapidly with no middle seats, and of course no middle seats is a big plus in the minds of passengers, although not as much as a low fare, which is why adopting such a less space efficient concept needs to be thoroughly executed.

I notice there was a thread recently on the 7J7 but it disappeared before I had time to read it.

These days I think the minimum dimensions for an economy class seat width wise at least should be that of a 777 in the nine abreast configuration. People are getting much bigger than they were when the 737 took over the basic fuselage width of the 707. Same comment applies to the Airrbus A300s and the 330/340s based on them.

 
bigb
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:09 pm

It seems to me that there will be no advanced 747

I've been hearing different things about a possible 747A.
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:51 pm

Dfw, I think those where the excuses he had, anyway he got a really nice job
from Chicago when he retired from Boeing.

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
AirframeAS
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:12 am

Klaus & A380900:

Here is your anwser:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/95567/

Hope this solves some of your questions regards to the 737NG certification. I can assure you that the F.A.A. does not 'just' certify the aircraft just because its a whole another 737. Every single aircraft that comes off any manufactor's line DOES get a complete F.A.A. check by a F.A.A. inspector before its delivered to a customer.

Next time, A380900, do some research!!

I also wanted to add:

Each new aircraft inspected by a F.A.A. inspector has its own certification certificate above the L1 door and is renewed at a specific time frame. Each certificate has the F.A.A. inspector's signature on it.

[Edited 2004-08-09 22:14:30]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
a380900
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:15 am

Well, thank you for linking to this thread but did you notice I started it?
 
Klaus
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AirframeAS

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:22 am

AirframeAS: Here is your anwser:

No, not yet, at the time I´m writing this. It´s a very specific question, and all I´ve seen so far are general answers that do not answer it.


AirframeAS: I can assure you that the F.A.A. does not 'just' certify the aircraft just because its a whole another 737.

Scroll back and you´ll recognize that you´ve gone off on a tangent simply because you misunderstood the original post. Any potential waivers during derivative certification have nothing whatsoever to do with "shoddy work" by the certification authority, nor did A380900 claim such a thing.

Calm down, please!
 
S12PPL
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:28 am

A380900....I don't have the time or patience to address all the stupidity of your thread and views of Boeing...other than to just say:

Way to start another Boeing vs. Airbus thread.
The French have lost all objectivity, and your total bias is amazing. You've left Boeing for dead...and they aren't even close to it yet. Airbus and Boeing are two totally different companies as a whole.... And Airbus is yet to build an airplane with the success rate anywhere CLOSE to the 737. Shouldn't France go surrender to someone??
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
Klaus
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:35 am

Oh my, the kids are out in full force tonight...  Insane

Calm down, please!

And then read the thread again.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:37 am

I know that at the airline I work at Airbus has went way above and beyond to make our A300-600Rs the best performing airplanes in the fleet ... And they are by far the best performing aircraft we have. Boeing should try to do something like that... Face it they are losing the airplane war and the years of government supported monopoly is the reason why.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
a380900
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:16 am

"I don't have the time or patience to address all the stupidity of your thread and views of Boeing..."

Then leave it to that and go to the next topic!
 
NWA742
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:24 am

I know that at the airline I work at Airbus has went way above and beyond to make our A300-600Rs the best performing airplanes in the fleet ... And they are by far the best performing aircraft we have

Well Dc10guy, if the A300s are so much better than AA's gigantic fleet of 767s..........why does AA have a gigantic fleet of 767s?

Boeing should try to do something like that...

They have, and the 767's sales and performance figures prove it. Not to mention the replacement 7E7 which will be, by far, the best and newest aircraft in that category in a few years.

Face it they are losing the airplane war

How is that? Because sales number have been lower than Airbus's for a few times around now? That has about squat to do with how Boeing's aircraft match the competition, it has to do mostly with economy and money.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
DC10GUY
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RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:16 am

NWA742 I don't know about AA's fleet. But our 36 A300-600's are flying at 99.9% on time.... That's pretty impressive no matter how much you want to deny it.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:40 am

What "airline" do you work for?? FedEx? Other than American...FedEx is the only American carrier I know of that operates scheduled A300 service....
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:04 am

NWA742 I don't know about AA's fleet. But our 36 A300-600's are flying at 99.9% on time.... That's pretty impressive no matter how much you want to deny it.

My mistake, but what company do you work for?

Also, you only give a figure of dispatch reliability, that's just one of several factors determining the overall performance of a commerical aircraft.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
DC10GUY
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:01 pm

Yes Fedex. I know your next question ...What about the A310's??? They are not as good as the A300's BUT !!! Airbus has helped bring the reliability up a whole bunch since we started flying them in 1994. The ex KAL aircraft are dragging down dispatch reliability a small amount.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:46 pm

Airbus has helped bring the reliability up a whole bunch since we started flying them in 1994

I don't doubt that, but you still fail ot explain yourself. What are the problems with the Boeing aircraft in the fleet?

Again, you only give a figure of dispatch reliability, that's just one of several factors determining the overall performance of a commerical aircraft.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
JCS
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:24 pm

I did 12 737-200 flights with VASP. I have to say the 737 is a nice aircraft! Let alone the engines look a bit weird and the doors whistle during flight. And at some aircrafts are missing some screws from the wings/engines. The f/a was joking that he prayed before every flight and the captain asked to take extra attention of the safety instructions because take-off would may be aborted. When taking-off and braking the plane makes a beautiful sound. I did not hear that sound before on my recently airbus flights with TAP! Wonderful! And in fact even 1 of my 12 flights was arriving right time and right destination. But, luggage was lost. The aircraft is not that big isn't it? And I had also more space then in most Airbus aircraft. At least 3 chairs during most of these flights!!! And what about registration code: "PP- "? I thought their should be more than just "PP" on the wings? And do you know it is already built in 1967?

People, where does this subject deal about?

I have 1 remark on this topic and want to mention 1 good reply. Remark at A380900: "what should Boeing and THE US do"; do you want to say A vs B is important for US-citizens and they have to take their conclusions? Need all Europeans to support Airbus and all US-people to defend Boeing? Is nationalism our destiny? 1 good thing: somebody understands this is like Burger King vs. Mc Donalds.

About VASP: good airliner with good planes, but old planes. Good service, nice staff. Problems are solved very correctly.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:52 pm

Government pride, government interest, government delusion, government whatever. None of these things can make support last forever. If EADS weren't turning a profit, and there was no way they would, they'd have gone the way of the dodo. After all, EADS isn't Emirates Group now are they? There's no bottomless pit of money to keep "subsidising" them year after year after year.
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:13 pm

I think they should start with the 737. I don't buy the argument that it is as good as the A320. It is old technology and it does not allow cockpit commonality with other Boeing products (it was certified in the 1960s for God's sake! and no, this is not inconsequential).

Ever hear the expression that it is better to be thought an idiot rather than open one's mouth and prove it?

The 737-Next Generation, while maintaining much of the same configuration as its 1960s predecessor, is really a completely new aircraft, with new wings, new avionice, engines, and loads of other performance-enhancing systems.

Is it me or most of the new LCCs in the US have gone A320? Would you start an LCC with 737s today?

AirTran and Southwest are still dedicated Boeing customers, and AirTran started taking delivery of 737s just last month. Southwest is still an all-737 airline, with over 400 examples of the type.

How could they not see the advantages of the side stick in a cockpit environment (ask the pilots!)?

Many pilots have shown a preference for side-stick. Many have also shown a preference for flight-yoke. I don't think a statistical study has been done, but I'd bet the average pilot in the US prefers flight-yoke.

They should bet on new technology like Airbus did to challenge them.

Have you looked at the specifications for the 7E7...?

Now how do you challenge a player with positions as strong as Airbus in all market segments?

You mean the same market segments that Boeing has been working in for years? Let's see... How did Airbus do it? Better yet, how can Boeing do it better?

First, I think that reducing lead time for aircraft orders is a principle goal for any manufacturer. Boeing has done this to some extent with the 717 and looks to be making improvements in that operation with the 7E7. Airbus has already done much of this. Part of the huge cost of selling airliners is the carrying cost of such a massive machine. If Boeing can reduce build-time across its supply chain, it can make more money than before.

Second, they need to be more aggressive in their marketing of the aircraft. I haven't seen a Boeing commercial on any of the news networks or during the Sunday morning news shows in awhile.

Third, Boeing should stop challenging Airbus on the subsidy issue. It only creates more anymosity between Europeans and Americans. Europeans don't even see the loans that have been given as subsidies (a question of semantics), so they should stop complaining and just try to sell aircraft.

Whatever Boeing next move is, it will be met with all the power of Airbus which is equal or superior to Boeing in all market segments at this point.

While it is true that Airbus has made significant progress over the past thirty or so years since it was created, let us not forget that Boeing has huge military and space operations that EADS cannot claim. Certainly EADS has military and space programs, but Boeing is much larger here. While Airbus has the lead in commercial aviation for now, it is a recent development. Boeing also has a name that resonates through history and has aircraft flying for the militaries of nations all over the world and particularly in the US. This creates some affinity for the company among pilots that will be difficult for Airbus to overcome.

Boeing's goal should be to sustain competition with equivalent or better products than Airbus like they do with the 777 and soon with the 7E7.

I couldn't agree with you more. That should be the goal of every company in a competitive market.

I also think they should stop complaining about Airbus subsidies because they are the ones needing subsidies now if they want to remain in all market segments. Without subsidies, they will let the A380 dominate the skies for the next 30 years or so (if this plane delivers).

Boeing is not going to take subsidies. If they do, it makes them look like hypocrites. Boeing should not take subsidies, because it reduces their incentive to perform. Like it or not, people in general work harder when there is some kind of incentive to earn. Airbus had an incentive. It was similar to Pepsi during the Cola Wars: Beat Coke (or in Airbus' Case, Beat Boeing). For Pepsi, that was the Mission Statement, the Vision Statement, everything. If you wanted to know what drove Pepsi to do something, that was it. While I'm sure that "Beat Boeing" wasn't the only thing on the minds of the people at Airbus, I'm sure it was a huge incentive to them.

With the monopoly on the A380, Airbus will have huge profits on these planes and money will be pouring for R&D in Toulouse and Hamburg.

You're assuming that Airbus can sell the aircraft at a premium. Usually, no one can do this in a competitive market. If Airbus tries to sell the A380 at a premium, most companies will simply say, "Well, we could just operate the 747-400-Advanced instead. Sure, we won't get as many seats, but we can still fill the aircraft in the slow months..." Airbus will lower the price, and not make as much money. Besides which, as Boeing sells the 7E7 (and all their other planes), they'll be getting money for R&D, as well.

There is no way that a public company like Boeing can invest enough money to catch up with Airbus with the lead that it has now.

People used to say that about IBM after Apple took over the Personal Computer market. Now, IBM sells four times as many computers as Apple, and they are the #3 PC producer. Other factors and other companies intervened, something that could easily happen to Airbus...

It mattered to Europe to be a player in the jetliners market and they acted accordingly. Now what will the US do?

The same thing we've always done and continue to do: Work our asses off. That's what we do. That's what has made the US such a powerful country. When we fall behind, we work hard until we're ahead. It happened in WWII. It happened in jets. It happened in the Space Race. It continues in a variety of industries and services today (though, with our risk-averse MBAs, it is not as frequent an occurence as before).

Okay, now that I've written something that sounds like a WWII propaganda flick, let me be serious: Even if Boeing fails in the Commercial Aviation market, someone else will spring up to challenge Airbus. It could be Cessna. It could be Embraer. Lockheed could throw its hat back in the ring. Even Mitsubishi might get involved. Who knows? What I do know is that the "King of the Hill" never stays King forever. Just ask the guys at Standard Oil, US Steel, or General Motors...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
brons2
Posts: 2480
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: What Should Boeing And The US Do?

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:58 pm

There are two reasons not discussed that Boeing's market share is down.

1. The US Majors, the bedrock of Boeing's business for many years, are down for the count. Note that Boeing delivered 527 planes in 2001, if the US economy was still roaring along like it was when those orders were placed, it wouldn't matter that Airbus had placed 300, because Boeing would still be way ahead.

Not to say that the structural improvements that Boeing has gone through didn't need to be made (they did) but if the economy was as robust as in the late 90s, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Also, the US based LCC's have not shown the same favortism towards Boeing as the majors have in the past.

2. They can no longer reply on a monopoly position in the large aircraft market, ie, 747. Last time I checked, 79% of 747's were sold overseas. With customers going for the A380, it gives a chance for Airbus to get their foot in the door and increases the probability of smaller models being purchased. (see: Eithiad) This also hurts Boeing's chances of winning foreign customers, as they really need to do right now with the US majors in such a funk.

Airbus has also done a better job reaching out to the world market than Boeing has, overall, IMHO.

I must also openly wonder how much the policies of the US government are hurting Boeing sales.
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