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Gnomon
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:38 am

In a regulatory filing, Delta said today that it will seek Chapter 11 protection if it doesn't get concessions from workers and other parties.

What's the sense here among DL employees of the likelihood of a bankruptcy filing, given ALPA's latest posturing? Malone's letter the other day clearly implies there's little chance of the pilots giving DL the $1 billion it's seeking. Do the pilots still prefer to take their chances in court rather than provide the givebacks management is seeking?

Relevant link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040809/airlines_delta_3.html
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2615
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:42 am

As a lifelong, and even to this day, a die-hard DL flier. I have been convinced that BK is going to occur to my airline of choice. I just came to realize it today. I wanted to fool myself thinking the pilots would come back down to earth and the revenue environment would improve. Ticket prices are down, way down from pre-9/11 and the loads are there - but the problem still is also.

I am not sure if they won't come out of it. There was very well documented chatter (here and other places) that DL was, financially, the best situated airline after 9/11. I am convinced that after 9/11 we would loose one legacy carrier. I am still very closely watching what happens to UA and US, though, I am not sure if that effects the DL destiny.

Malone needs a kick in the head by some guys named Vinni Grazziani and awake to the fact that the world does not revolve around them and that they need to take one for the team. If they don't I'd hope that DL does NOT renew the contract with the current pilots, and get an entirely new set of pilots (that would be operationally difficult, I agree) and start clean through BK if necessary. The DALPA reminds me of the Major League Baseball players union, too much of a hard ball player I feel.

While pilot labor costs are not the only thing that will fix DL, it must be the first action to get the company in motion. The pilots are unreasonable in their negotiations.

I hope DL will survive. I'm still a proud DL flier, and hope to be so for the rest of my life! Can I get some support! B4REAL
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
NYCAAer
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:48 am

What I hear from DL F/As is that the pilots feel as if the company is placing their future in the hands of the pilots' decision to hammer out an agreement, and they feel it's just a smoke screen. I think DL's pilots need to get a reality check, personally. All they need to do is look at what has happened to UA's and US's pilots in Chapter 11. If AA's pilots could bite the bullet, albeit reluctantly, DL pilots can too. I highly doubt there is much public sympathy for the DL pilots.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:53 am

Entirely in the hands of the pilots. It is a difficult situation, because the F/As have a lot of respect for the pilots. I'm not sure if the respect is bi-directional to the F/As and the rest of the company for that matter.

One RR Click for you, NYCAAer!

[Edited 2004-08-10 04:54:02]
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
OB1504
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:01 pm

I'm thinking of investing some money into Delta. Stock price is down to less than $4.00 and if the declare BK, then it's $10 down the drain. Not much really, but if they should stay alive and become the successful carrier that they used to be...
 
NYCAAer
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:05 pm

Thanks, B4real. But I don't know if the F/As have any respect for the pilots. Maybe it's different at DL than at AA. You don't see any AA F/As genuflecting toward pilots, that's for sure. The DL pilots claim they are being made scape goats for DL's problems.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:20 pm

That is what the pilots (or any union) will do, but there needs to be support internally for the pilots. Any anamocity from the F/As or other operational groups will drive the airline to the ground. Its okay to come from management  Smile

AA is a good airline, and if (I hope it doesn't happen) I have to change carriers, I'd go to AA.

They fail to realize with thier gauranteed raises that the F/As, reservations, and gate staff have all gone nearly 4 or 5 years without a raise and had benefits slashed. DL Pilots are literally rolling in the money @ the rest of the company's expense.

B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
Gnomon
Topic Author
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:22 pm

Interestingly enough about the DL F/As, I flew ATL-TLH a couple of weeks ago. The initial welcome-aboard announcement went something like: "On behalf of your overpaid pilots and your underpaid flight attendants, welcome aboard Delta, a SkyTeam member..."

Several people -- including me -- chuckled at that one. But seriously, I get the sense the F/As resent the pilots somewhat.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:30 pm

I'm sure they do, but it is unprofessional of them to bring it to the customer like that.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
Gnomon
Topic Author
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:35 pm

B4real -- I agree. I was shocked they thought it was fair game for a PA.
 
deltadude8
Posts: 553
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:26 pm

I still believe DL exec.'s should begin by both taking a pay cut and reducing benefits before the pilots should have to do anything...

it is only fair...

But like i have said before we know they wont do this so I stand behind the pilots 100% if the company was in that bad of shape and the Exec's cared about saving it they would cut their costs as well...HOLD TIGHT DL pilots...(this attitude is also shared with family within DL) because we at DL all know if the pilots do take the paycut....next they will come to the already paycut F/A's and other employees for more and more paycuts....all before they will take a 0 or 00 out of there benefits/paycheck.

 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:21 pm

what happens to our delta skymiles and elite status should Delta go Bankrupt?
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:33 pm

another concern, lets say Delta goes out of business, would another airline pick-up the sky miles accounts from Delta's elite members? In other words, if I have 500,000 miles with Delta and i am gold elite, would another carrier carry these miles and elite status over to their program? Just a conern, anyone have ideas?
 
dl757md
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:45 pm

Deltadude8

How much do you think that the execs at Delta should make?

Isn't Jerry already making $500,000 with no options or bonuses?

Where are Delta execs in comparison to those of other airlines?

I for one feel that labor costs are market driven and that any employee group at a company must be paid at a rate comparable to their peers at competing companies if that company is to survive.

Pay of all nonpilot employee groups at Delta ranks in the top 3 or 4 in the industry and are on par with their respective groups at other airlines. The pilots are some 50% above any other U.S. airline. That means that it would take a 33% cut to bring them in line with the other majors.

I don't buy into the theory that if the pilots take a 30something percent pay cut that the other groups will have to do the same. 33% will put Dl pilots in line with the other majors and retain their industry leading pay status. I'd be glad to take a 20% cut (which would put my pay at about 23% below top in industry) if the pilots take a cut that put them 23% below top in industry. That would take a pay cut of approximately 50%, something I'm sure their not prepared to do. Then cut their benefits to the same that mine have been cut and I won't complain about the pilot pay at Dl anymore. Dl pilots don't deserve pay 50% higher than the next highest paid pilot any more than other groups at DL. They can't make a business case to justify 5% higher pay let alone 50%. Tech Ops (Mtc) at Delta provides mtc for Dl at the lowest cost in the majors. We, being non-union, are more efficient than unionized mtc operations at other airlines. That would be a legitimate reason for having industry leading pay. Yet we are currently 4th in the industry in compensation. The pilots can't point to anything in the performance of their jobs that can legitimize their current level of pay in comparison to the other airlines. They fly fewer hours a month than many other airlines. They fly the same planes and have the same responsibility, professionalism, experience, and education as those flying at UA, AA, NW, CO, and SW(which has the highest paid AMTs in the industry). The market has dictated that the pilots at those companies fly for what they do and until Dl pilots yield to those same market forces DL has no chance of surviving.

Having said all of that, I feel that the pilot group, as do all employees at DL, has legitimate concerns about how our company has been and will be managed. Executive pay is not currently much of an issue but executive performance is paramount. Employee concessions, no matter how severe or far reaching are of no use if leadership cannot effectively utilize them for the betterment of the company. We at Delta are waiting for the "Big Announcement" to find out what our leadership has in store for us. A clear vision is needed for all of us to feel confident that the sacrifices we make now will be rewarded with a stable, healthy company to work for.

And by the way Deltadude8 would you rather take another pay cut or lose your job?

Dl757md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:22 pm

It's management's own fault for letting the airline get into this position. In any other industry, they would be fired for having the high load factors like they are and not making any money. The pilots may be paid well..and they deserve such. The FA's dont exactly have it bad off either with their pay.

Delta needs to ask for cuts accross the board, not just so much from the pilots.

Besides, some work rules concessions would go alot farther than hourly concessions.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:45 pm

XFSUgimp-Last I checked (and in this industry, that may very well have changed) the only unionized employees at Delta are the pilots...that means, of course, that Delta could IMPOSE 5.15 an hour wages with no benefits on every single one of their employees, save the pilots, if they needed to, and the only recourse the non-pilot employees would have is to quit and find a better-paying job...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:54 pm

SHUPirate1

The Delta pilots are the only major unionized group at Delta. The dispatchers are also unionized but I think they number fewer than 200.

XFSUgimpLB41X

The company is asking the pilots for work rule and benefit concessions in addition to wage concessions.

Dl757md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:59 pm

Dl757md-Thanks for correcting me...you, as a Delta employee, would know better than I would...after all, I'm just somebody who's been turned down (for an interview even) more times than I can count for a CSR job, with more airlines than I can count...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
AUAE
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:41 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:13 pm

Dont see any mention of this so far,

Yesterday a news release said DL burned through 750M in cash in the first 6 months. That is really bad news, because that is faster than most analysts were expecting. I believe that takes DL below 2B in cash, and precariously close to the danger zone in terms of cash reserves. UA had close to 2B (?? I think, please correct me if I am wrong here) going into bankruptcy, and they still haven't emerged, and are having a tough time getting their financial house in order. I think Jerry better pull the trigger fast, at that rate of cash burn DL cannot afford to wait till Dec to go into bankruptcy.


http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040809/delta_4.html

Shawn
Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:22 pm

" If AA's pilots could bite the bullet, albeit reluctantly, DL pilots can too. I highly doubt there is much public sympathy for the DL pilots"


Hmm, the Delta pilots have already offered more than the AA pilots gave. Why do you think the Delta pilots are not willing to bite the bullet?
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:26 pm

"The pilots are some 50% above any other U.S. airline."


That statement is simply not true. The Delta pilots are only 14% above Northwest, 16% above Alaska, and 30% above Continental. The offer currently on the table would put the Delta pilots below NW and AK, and only a few % above Continental.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:18 pm

But like i have said before we know they wont do this so I stand behind the pilots 100%

There are hell of a lot more pilots, than there are execs at any airline. And if the pilots are stubborn, and not willing to bring their pay scale in line with what other pilots at other carriers are taking, then you can, right now, kiss DL goodbye. It's easy, as you have, to pick on the execs, but the majority of their payroll goes to one group-pilots, and cutting pilots' pay will save DL a bundle, if they can hammer out a deal.

Let DL's pilots act like EA's mechanics and bag handlers back in the 80's, and the same results will happen.

That statement is simply not true. The Delta pilots are only 14% above Northwest, 16% above Alaska, and 30% above Continental.

What about AA and UA? I see you failed to mention where DL stands as compared to them?
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 792
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:37 pm

DL's pilots are paid way more than AA pilots. The AA pilots took an annual pay cut amounting to about $660 million annually, but their pay had not reached the levels of those at UA and DL pre-9-11, because they were in contract negotiations at the time. So if they were paid less, the amount of a pay cut was less as well.
 
bucky707
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:13 pm

"What about AA and UA? I see you failed to mention where DL stands as compared to them?"

I failed to mention it because it was irrelevant to the statement I was refuting. The statement was Delta pilots make 50% more than any other airlines pilots. That is not true. But since you asked, here it is for some common aircraft and a couple of other airlines.


Delta MD80 pay 237
AA MD80 pay 152 (33% less)
CAL MD80 pay 179 (24% less)
AK MD80 pay 197 (16% less)

Delta 737-300 pay 231
UAL 737-300 pay 147 (36% less)
CAL 737-300 pay 158 (31% less)
USAir 737-300pay152 (34% less)

Delta 757 pay 268
NWA 757 pay 220 (18% less)
USAir 757 pay 176 (34% less)
UAL 757 pay 170 (36% less)

So there you have it. Are the Delta pilots overpaid compared to the industry, yes. I do not dispute that. Will we end up taking a 30% pay cut, or maybe a bit more, yes. But to say that we are 50% more than anyone else is an outright lie.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:21 pm

I failed to mention it because it was irrelevant to the statement I was refuting. The statement was Delta pilots make 50% more than any other airlines pilots.

Excuse me? How is failing to mention the airlines that DL is the same size at, relatively, irrelevant? And the statement you made is that DL pilots make 50% more than pilots do AT THE AIRLINES YOU MENTIONED. You failed to mention AA and UA. That's very relevant, I think.

And if you look at the pay scales you put in, it's quite obvious that DL's pilots will have to take huge paycuts, whether they like it or not. It's economic suicude for them to try and hold the line.
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:30 pm

"Excuse me? How is failing to mention the airlines that DL is the same size at, relatively, irrelevant? And the statement you made is that DL pilots make 50% more than pilots do AT THE AIRLINES YOU MENTIONED. You failed to mention AA and UA. That's very relevant, I think."


You did not read what I wrote. I was responding to a statemen that "The pilots are some 50% above any other U.S. airline".

To disprove that statement I only need to provide one other airline that is less than 50% below us. I did that. Thats why it is irrelevant.

I did not say the pay at UA or AA is irrelevant to our situtation, only that it was irrelevant to disproving the above statement.


[Edited 2004-08-10 16:31:02]
 
cragley
Posts: 397
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RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:45 pm



Ok so if the pilots take a pay cut, how long is it for? Is there a set amount of time? Do DL exec's have their bonus' frozen til DL is in the black? (if ever)
I say its a fair deal. They can take a pay cut for the sake of their career and long term goal, or hold onto their pride and go down with DL.
Its a tough decision for any employee to take a pay cut while retaining the same responsibilities, but an airline should be a team environment, so whats good for the goose is good for the gander. No individual is bigger than the company they work for. Everyone must make sacrifices so the company can succeed. Perhaps the pilots take paycuts in exchange for company shares?
Your thoughts?
 
deltadude8
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 12:09 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:25 am

DL757MD....I do agree with you on one point...you stated it better then I did.

Having said all of that, I feel that the pilot group, as do all employees at DL, has legitimate concerns about how our company has been and will be managed. Executive pay is not currently much of an issue but executive performance is paramount. Employee concessions, no matter how severe or far reaching are of no use if leadership cannot effectively utilize them for the betterment of the company

But I know that DL will come knocking at the door right after the pilots to F/A's Mech's and other DL groups, and you would have to be blind not to realize this. What I mean to point out is that we are "burning" (or so they say...not sure if I buy their outcries) a ton of money a month. And simply taking pay from pilots is not going to provide a long term solution to DL's problem.

Asking the pilots for a paycut is like making DL's fleet into almost 30% CRJ's.
The CRJ's were a bandaid (R) solution to DL's problems and now the blood is spewing out of the wound...taking paycuts from pilots would be another maybe stonger bandaid on top of the wound...it would stop some of the blood spewing...but not all of it...then they will ask agents F/A's ground crews maint. and others for more paycuts...in effect causing the blood to stop pouring out..and maybe clog it back up....But 1-5 years down the road that wound is going to burst again...Before I take another paycut I want to make bloody sure (no pun intended) DL has some kind of long term goal for getting DL back on our feet. All I want in the world right now is for DL to become profitable...but I am not going to help in that process by just watching everyone take paycuts...I want action...I want cost cutting measures...And I would love to see the big ole' USA do something (drill Alaska? I dont know) to bring down fuel costs. So when we are still losing money...The exec's have nothing to blame it on but their own blindness....

 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:37 am

And simply taking pay from pilots is not going to provide a long term solution to DL's problem.

It won't solve the whole problem, but it will be a good start, and help DL burn through a lot less money.

DL's pilots need to be asked one thing: do you want to work for less, and still make a pretty damned good living, or see DL go belly up, and find a new profession? I mean, there aren't many pilot openings at the other airlines right now, are there?
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:03 am

This is all the pilots fault. Dl was considered one of the strong ones after 9/11, they were favored to recover a lot faster than UAL/AA/US and such. If they could have had their cost in order or beginning to, I have no doubts they would be the strongest of the big 5. Sadly they are becoming the weakest overnight, if the pilots would have taken cuts in accordance to what the industry would allow they wouldn't be here, and in a short time probably recover those cuts with hefty raises.

NYCAAER,
I think you mentioned F/A's just loving pilots? I think you might want to reevaluate your response. F/A's wont sympathize with the pilots on this topic, because they know BK is in their hands. And once BK happens? Lower pay,loss of pension, a longer days ahead(increased work rules)

so in all, DL pilots may be scape goats, and they may be hood ornaments into an industry 3 BK. Cant take anymore from the other groups, they aren't union and have already been rapes at the pilots expense.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
AUAE
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:41 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:41 am

Bucky707,

The answer is all in the fuzzy math.

You have calculated percent less. AA pilots make x percent less than DL. By your numbers, you have taken the difference and divided by the DL wage. Of course that will be less than 50%. Try taking the difference and dividing by the AA wage.

For an M80,

237-152=85

85/237 = 35.8% (error on your part)
85/152 = 55.9%

Gee wiz, I wonder why everone is LYING???????

AA may make only 35.8% less than a DL wage, but DL pilots make 55.9% more than an AA wage. Isn't it just weird how that works!

You, in effect, have called yourself a liar. The numbers you present tell the truth, just depends on how you do the math as to what the percentage looks like.

Shawn
Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
 
Gnomon
Topic Author
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:54 am

Dl757md --

I agree wholeheartedly with your posts. Let's just hope your sense of realism percolates through other employee groups, specifically the pilots. Meanwhile, I've just added you to my respected users list. Thanks for your insight.
 
PIA777
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:25 am

I think its all my fault. I use to live in Chicago and UAL went into Bankruptcy
and now I live in ATL and Delta might file and now my boss wants me to move to Dallas. AA better look out.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
DC10Heavy
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:30 am

Don't feel bad DAL shareholders, I got dinged when USAIR went for Ch-11. Cost me a couple large. I bought several hundred shares of USAIR on 09-13-2001 as a show of support. Burned me in the end... DAL is strong, even with Ch-11, they will come out leaner but stronger. They have some great Hubs and market.

PS: 1st post to A.Net
NWA DC10 LAX to HNL the only way to go!
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:15 am

"AA may make only 35.8% less than a DL wage, but DL pilots make 55.9% more than an AA wage. Isn't it just weird how that works!"

No, I fully admit I did it from the perspective of the DL wage. Why? We are about to take a pay cut, AA is not going to get a pay raise. So to look at it from how much of a pay cut do the Delta pilots have to take to get down to the AA level, you have to look at it from the DL wage. When you run around saying the DL pilots make 55% more, you are implying to the general public (who does not understand how the math works) that the Delta pilots would have to take a 55% cut to get to the AA level.

Either way you look at it, I proved my point. Again the statement was, "The pilots are some 50% above any other U.S. airline." I responded saying that statement was a lie. I never said we did not make 50% more than AA (for example). The above state said we made 50% more than any other U.S. airline. That is not true. That statement is a lie.



[Edited 2004-08-10 21:17:19]
 
AUAE
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:41 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:55 am

Bucky,

Looking back over your posts, it is hard to figure out exactly what you were talking about. In one post it is that DL makes 16% more than AK, then in the numbers for the M80 it is that AK is 16% less than DL. Then you say "But to say that we are 50% more than anyone else is an outright lie." Given that, it looked as though your post was a bit deceptive.


Enough of that though, since we are trying to fully understand the numbers, lets talk total pilot compensation. Hourly pay scales are one part of it. How does DL total pilot compensation compare to other carriers?? Also, what is the max # hours a month before overtime kicks in for DL, and how does that compare at the other carriers?

Shawn
Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
 
Gnomon
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:13 am

Bucky707 --

Quibbling over the numbers aside, I'm interested to hear your take on how this is all going to play out. Airline analyst Ray Neidl has said he thinks the pilots will accept management's proposal at the 11th hour and prevent a BK filing, at least for now. So have others.

Do you think that'll happen? What's the buzz among the pilots on where this situation is heading?
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:42 am

Ok, I can only address the pay rate. It would be hard to address total compensation, but I will try to answer some of your questions.

Lets look at NW. For the 757 which we both fly, Northwest is 17.9% lower, or Delta is 21.8% higher, depending on how you look at it.

For CAL, again the 757, CAL is 33.2% lower, or Delta is 49.7% higher, again how you look at it.

For Southwest on the 737, SW is 22.5% lower or Delta is 29% higher.

All these numbers are from airlinepilotpay.com, and the ones that I have been able to verifiy have been correct.

Now as for total compensation, Lets look at various 737 operators. My neighbor, who is a SW 737 captain, averages 85 hours a month, flying 15 days. He says that is about average.So that gets you about 15,200 a month. A Delta 737 will get 75 hours a month (which is our cap right now) for 17,300 a month. For comparison, the pilots have offered a 23% pay cut (so about 178 per hour), and an increase in the cap to roughly 80. So that would put a Delta 737 pilot at 14,200 a month. The company has asked for a 35% cut (about 150 per hour) and an 85 hour cap, so you get to roughly 12,750 a month. For another 737 comparison, UAL pays 147 an hour for the 737 and they are flying close to 90 hours a month now, so using 90 a month that gets you about 13,200 a month. For CAL, the 737 pay rate (for the 737-300, which I am using for all) is 158. The guarantee is 72 a month but I have been told the average pilot there flies about 82, for about 12,956 a month.

Jetblue top pay is 139 an hour, but no one is on the top pay yet. So use the 5 year rate of 121 an hour. At JB everything over 70 hours pays time and a half. I have been told the average JB pilot gets about 85 a month. That gets you a total per month of about 11,200.

Other than JB, where time and a half is automatic for hours above 75, I don't know much about overtime. At Delta, you have to put in for overtime (what we call a greenslip) and if needed, it is awarded in senirioty order. Depending on the manning level in your catagory, if you are senior (top 20% in your catagory) you can get it. A greenslip pays double pay.

Anyhow, there you have it.

 
panamair
Posts: 4360
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:44 am

Some of the buzz (talked to some of my DL employee friends today) suggests that the more militant pilots are gambling to take a chance in Chapter 11 as they think the BK judge may not allow as deep a cut as proposed by DL management (maybe 40% instead of 50%) as they don't believe the situation to be as bad as portrayed by management!!
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:48 am

"Quibbling over the numbers aside, I'm interested to hear your take on how this is all going to play out. Airline analyst Ray Neidl has said he thinks the pilots will accept management's proposal at the 11th hour and prevent a BK filing, at least for now. So have others."

Wow, I used to think that, but I really don't know anymore. There is a growing feeling here that GG does not want a deal and he wants to go to BK. I can only say, for myself and many people I have talked too, we will not accept the companies proposal unless some things change. Its not the pay rate I personally have a problem with. A 35% cut puts us right in line with the bulk of the airlines. There are other issues there.

Having said that, my gut is a deal will be done that ends up being somewhere in between the two proposals, but closer to the company proposal than ours.


 
Gnomon
Topic Author
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:27 am

Bucky707 --

A dismal analysis, but strangely comforting in that you feel a compromise will likely be reached. I certainly hope so, for your sake and that of your co-workers. I read an article in the AJC this weekend in which some DAL pilots have found other employment outside the airline, "just in case." What's your gauge of morale in the company at the moment? Is it as bad as it's being portrayed in the media and on this forum?
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:26 am

"A dismal analysis, but strangely comforting in that you feel a compromise will likely be reached. I certainly hope so, for your sake and that of your co-workers. I read an article in the AJC this weekend in which some DAL pilots have found other employment outside the airline, "just in case." What's your gauge of morale in the company at the moment? Is it as bad as it's being portrayed in the media and on this forum?"


Well, I have been preparing for another career for some time, and my wife makes good money, so we would be fine without Delta. Keep in mind I still want to fly, I love to fly, but if I end up with wages/working conditions as bad as some of my buddies at UAL and USAir, screw it. I'll move on when I can. I can put up with low pay, and I can put up with crappy working conditions, but I won't put up with both. I know many guys are or already have made other plans.

As for the moral, its really bad. That's the thing that may kill us in the end. Even if we skirt BK, people are very upset. Right or wrong, the feeling of the pilots is that management is taking advantage of the situation, and really doesn't need all they are asking for. So you can imagine the mood of the pilots. Everyone else is pissed at the pilots because they have bought the rhetoric that it's all our fault. Add to that in my opinion once the pilots are dealt with, they will cut everyone else's pay, which will add to their anger. There is still lingering resentment and distrust on the part of everyone because of the retirement trust set up by Leo, Fred and their gang, only to bail out the minute the money was set aside. I also think no one, from the pilots to the ramp workers, has any faith that GG and his people can make a difference. Look at USAirways. It is evident they never really had a plan to recover other than to cut pay, and in the end pay is not the biggest issue. Southwest now makes more than USAirways, and is still killing them. I feel the same about our management. They have no plan. GG has been doing a "review" for what, six months now? He has been on the board for 15 or so years, and was CEO of Western before that. If he doesn't know what is going on, and six months later is still reviewing, that scares the hell out of me.

When this is all over, management is going to need the best from everyone, and unless they can do some serious repair work in labor relations and moral, I don't see where anyone will be in a mood to give their best.

I'm willing to work hard to save this company, and I know most people are too. But we have to feel like management values us, and frankly, I don't think anyone feels that way right now.
 
AZjetgeek
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:53 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:36 am

I have mixed feelings about the DL situation. The pilots' position is somewhat similar to the Eastern mechanics in the 80's. In 1983, when the rest of the Eastern employees took pay cuts, Charlie Bryan and the mechanics stood firm and did not take them. The other employee groups took several years before they finally saw through Frank Lorenzo's nonsense and eventually backed the IAM when they did strike in the late 80's.

Do the DL pilots want to risk losing not only respect, but support from their co-workers by refusing to compromise? It's a risk and so is the gamble that DL won't file for Chapt. 11.

However, I am generally in support of pilots. It's a much more difficult job than the general public seems to understand and the number of years a pilot has to toil at lower pay to reach the rank of captain is a significant factor in why pilots are reluctant to take deeper cuts.

I agree with what's been said here about DL's execs coming forward with a plan that would allow the airline to emerge successfully from bankruptcy. Let's face it. UA's pilots took cuts and UA has not yet emerged from bankruptcy. US pilots also took concessions to help that airline emerge from Chapt. 11. US is at a high risk of slipping back into bankruptcy some 18 months after they emerged.

I'm a big believer that mismanagement has a much greater impact on the financial health of an airline than labor costs alone. I'll give you an example from the public sector as an example of fiscal foul play.

I'm an employee of the State of Arizona. In the late 90's, our legislators and governor approved an alternative fuels bill that has cost the state nearly $700 million. Arizona has been running deficits each of the past four years. In 2003-04, lawmakers had to overcome a deficit that approached $1B. Who is really paying for this gross mistake? State employees such as myself. We were promised a 5% pay hike in 2003. We got ZIP! This year, we got a $1,000 across the board increase, except for DPS officers, who received $3,500 each.

Our Legislature has made state employees suffer for their fiscal failures, but we did not vote for that alt fuels bill. We weren't the primary beneficiaries of it either. My point is that management frequently finds as many ways to screw labor to pay for management's screw-ups. It's time to start changing that trend. If that means the DL pilots stand up to management, and Chapt. 11 is the result, at least the courts will be forced to take a closer look at how the airline's execs have spent their money.
Long live the RJ!
 
Gnomon
Topic Author
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:10 am

Bucky707 --

That's what I was afraid of. I'm encouraged that most feel a Band-Aid compromise will be reached in the short term, but the morale issues will linger. I wish you and your coworkers good luck.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:37 am

UAL777Contrail-

I think you misread my previous post. Read it again- I said you'll never see a flight attendant genuflecting toward a pilot.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:57 am

BUCKY707,
What an ignorant mind set you are in. You are over paid for what the industry can pay, your wife is doing well..... So? She makes the big bucks and you don't care?

sad, sad you cant weed people like you out of the picture. When speaking of militant pilots I have now pictured your name in that void. UAL Pilots will be rewarded for their sacrifice when we return to healthy and strong, along with the other job groups. You DL pilots had the chance to send the company into another direction but chose to be stubborn and ignorant. When looking at what is going on at other carriers you cant help but think one of the big 5 may not be here come next year, but you wont care when its you? I bet when the other carriers absorb you like a sponge you will be still flying needing the paycheck. You cant not need a pilot paycheck, it is gravy, and you'd miss the road. So your" I'm okay attitude" is lame and nobody's buying it.

I hope the best for the non-union folks who are getting raked over the coals for morons like bucky the wonder monkey.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:17 pm

Stand up for your profession!!!! GO DALPA!

LCC's are just raping the employees, simply because they can right now....Profits are looking really good to management, but not for frontline employees. Total unity wins!

AA
APFA
LGA
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:31 pm

AASTEW,
What the hell are you talking about? Stand up for your pilots, DL needs a miracle!!!!


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:00 pm

UAL pilots will be rewarded with what? Just like NWA management and the concessions they gave never backto the pilots? Management is continually full of liars that stretch and skew the truth while collecting bonuses....
Chicks dig winglets.
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta's Bumpy Ride

Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:36 pm

UALcontrail777,
where did I say I don't care? Or that I think we should not take concessions? Just the opposite in fact. I have said in this topic and other times that we are overpaid and that we should take concessions. However that does not mean that I can't make a value judgement on this career. If it is no longer a career that I feel is worth my effort, I will move on. That doesn't mean I don't care about the survival of Delta.

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