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ConcordeBoy
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:20 am

Even though he's probably already flipflopped on this issue....

....here's Kerry's original stance on Boeing vs Airbus-subsidies:
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1226717/4/
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jasepl
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Dfwrevolution & N79969

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:27 am

Dfw: A subsidy by any other name is still the same thing.

N79969: I hope you were trying to be funny, because I just can't stop laughing!
 
trex8
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:40 am

Will all my fellow Americans wake up and smell the roses! Tax credits ( " WTO illegal" or otherwise) for Boeing, in the end as far as the bottom financial line is concerned, is no different than a subsidised loan. In fact its better in many ways. Would you rather have the IRS guarantee your bank loan at a basis point or two less than the going rate or get an actual tax credit??? Airbus has paid everything they own so far and it been a decade or two since these so called subsidised bank loans were written that they don't have to be repaid if they had a failure, just the Euro treasuries are backing the loan so that they can be had for a little less than market rate at times and ultimately the Euro taxpayer is on the hook if Airbus really goes belly up. No different than US ExIm bank loans to finance those Boeing sales to airlines with less than stellar credit ratings.
With a tax credit, the taxpayer never sees anything back beyond the economic gains the credits are supposed to induce. Airbus gives the Euro tax payer both the economic advantages of the product manufacture and they have to pay back every penny eventually. Does Airbus get tax credits from local/municipal govts for having their factory there. Almost certainly but AFAIK no one has ever said they get special ones beyond what any other company gets for locating there. Boeing has been and will be living off literally billions of $ of various US local govt taxpayers! And I'm not even going to get into the "military" subsidy issue.

Both sides need to play on an even background but to say Boeing gets no financial breaks and Airbus does is total poppy cock. When Boeing decline the WA state tax cedits and any others not given to any other company and make their Japanese manufacturers go to commercial banks for their start up loans and don't send half the 7E7 production overseas like they have then they can pound on Brussels! I'd be far more charitable to them if they kept those jobs truely in the US!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:37 am

Dfw: A subsidy by any other name is still the same thing.

So... you're saying Boeing cannot use their own profitable transactions to fund other developments?

Boeing does not recieve subsidies from the U.S. governement, period. Boeing sells defense products or services to the D.O.D and NASA, and in return Boeing makes a profit. Boeing then uses their own profits to help fund other divisions, including, BCA. This intra-Boeing subsidization is in a completly different context than the Airbus subsidation of commercial products.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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sebolino
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:31 am

So... you're saying Boeing cannot use their own profitable transactions to fund other developments?

Boeing does not recieve subsidies from the U.S. governement, period


You are very wrong Dfw, Boeing benefits from a huge program of tax reductions, already heavily discussed in this forum, with links to newspaper articles, especially one in the washington post if I remember well. Period.
And those tax reduction are not repayables.
 
squirrel83
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:41 am

EU Snaps back Saterday ~ http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040814171421.huqoi5qc


he commission, the executive arm of the 25-nation European Union, pointed out there was a EU-US agreement setting out clear rules on state aid for aircraft manufacturers on both sides of the Atlantic. If Bush was unhappy with the rules, the appropriate channel for seeking changes was through negotiations with the EU, it said.

"The EU would like to point out that there are specific and clear rules on government support to both (US aircraft manufacturer) Boeing and Airbus laid down in the EU-US 1992 aircraft agreement," commission spokeswoman Ewa Hedlund told AFP.
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
a380900
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:46 am

Bush is going to save Boeing by using all of its intellectual might on this issue. What a good news for Airbus!
 
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eksath
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:48 am

Guys and gals,

Bush is just making a scene to appease a certain section of Washington State workers during his stump thru the state. As the article points out this just plain ol' election year politics.....Lets take this as at face value...when the election is over this will be another dull issue in the rubling dark clouds hanging over BOTH Airbus and Boeing...

The reality on the ground is the Airline industry must improve to have healthy viable airlines that can order products from BOTH companies..
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:48 am

You are very wrong Dfw, Boeing benefits from a huge program of tax reductions, already heavily discussed in this forum, with links to newspaper articles, especially one in the washington post if I remember well.

Those are on a state not federal level. I was very clear saying the U.S. government does not subsidize Boeing  Big grin
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:49 am

Is Boeing not allowed to sell defense products for a profit?

This must be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read on this forum  Insane Sigh...
 
brons2
Posts: 2480
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:05 am

Airline pensions are GONE...it's just a matter of time now...and you know what? It won't matter one iota who lives in the White House, either.

I don't know about "gone", but I think most employers, including airlines, will be going from a defined benefit to a defined contribution basis, if they haven't already.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
psa188
Posts: 661
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:44 am

It's about time. The only problem it it's 26 years too late. Carter should have made an issue of this back in the 1970s.

 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:54 am

So... you're saying Boeing cannot use their own profitable transactions to fund other developments?

I did not say that Dfw. And neither did anyone else. Boeing can do what they want with the profit they make. As can Airbus.

What I'm saying is that call it what you will, what the Government (US, state or city - doesn't matter) does for Boeing is a subsidiary. It might not be direct, but that doesn't change the nature of what it is.
 
longhaulheavy
Posts: 376
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:47 pm

It seems that quite a few people here have their own issues of insecurity, to which they have no solution but to blame someone else. Bush did it! He caused the hurricane! He took away my pension! The US would be in Kyoto but for Bush!

Think again. I love the Kyoto argument, because no US Senate would ever ratify the treaty - even today. It was voted down 95-0 in 1997 with the following quote from John F. Kerry: "What we have here is not ratifiable in the Senate in my judgment." (FYI to foreigners - treaties must pass the Senate to be valid).

I also love how the rest of the world seems to by praying for a Kerry victory. In case you haven't been listening to his campaign speeches, this is the most protectionist Presidential candidate who's run for office in decades. Think his victory is going to help the EU? Asia? Think again. You'll all starve at the trough while he attempts to buy off domestic constituencies with favors and subsidies.

This should have been an Airbus subsidies thread, but instead people can't seem to figure out that the world does not revolve around their hatred and misplaced anger towards President Bush. You're all so pleasant, I wonder how the rest of the world stands you.
 
bigb
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RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies -- Bush

Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:16 pm

What I'm saying is that call it what you will, what the Government (US, state or city - doesn't matter) does for Boeing is a subsidiary

First off, The US govt. does not just give Boeing money and not receive anything in return. The DOD and NASA contract Boeing for development not only just for Aircrafts, but for weapons, space equipment and plus many more stuff. Another words the DOD and Nasa pays Boeing for goods and services.

Lets look at Airbus case, Airbus receives Govt. loans that ONLY repaying if an project breaks even. For example, if the A380 is to flop, those billions loaned to Airbus for the A380 development don't have to be repayed. Lets not forget that EADs have its military department also which gives goods and services to those who are contracted with them.

Now lets look up the definition of subsidy

Subsidy - Financial assistance given by one person or government to another

Lets compare Boeings and Airbus cases. Those may bring up the fact that Boeing may have tax breaks on the state and local level (levels not controled by US govt.) These tax breaks are pretty small for a company like Boeing. Keep in mind, there might be tax breaks offered, but remember, there isn't any money being given to Boein from the state and local levels. And Boeing still have to pay its tax on these levels. Boeing doesn't get the similar Development loans that Airbus receives for aircraft development.
 
brons2
Posts: 2480
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:40 pm

Side point, everyone from other parts of the world seems to call the Washington State tax abatements a subsidy, but how much in property/land taxes does Airbus pay at their locations? Inquiring minds want to know.

I support the abandonment of the 1992 accords in favor of something new. EVEN IF things don't change that much, at least it will give the trade negiotiators a chance to pour over the numbers and come up with something that will assure everyone a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

In short, good, bad or ugly, I would like the respective governments of the countries involved to open it up for discussion.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
trex8
Posts: 5611
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: U.S. Could Go To WTO Over Airbus Subsidies --

Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:13 am

pretty small tax breaks from local govt??? 2 billion US$ from WA state is not pretty small for anyone.

US Federal corporate tax laws are notorious by any national standard for giving tax breaks to corporations and as the WTO has already determined, the one where US corporations can hide their foreign operations profits from US taxes are illegal and has allowed the EU to put punitive tariffs should the US continue them. Boeing has benefitted from that for some 2 decades+ to the tune of hundreds of millions of $ according to the WSJ.

I said it before, what US taxpayer would want a IRS loan guarantee as opposed to a tax credit??? Boeing could go to the commercial banks and get financing for its new project developement ifthere really was a finanial case to be made for it, this is little different than what Airbus does and if the Federal or WA state govt want to guarantee the loan because it may even make business sense so whats wrong with that. Washington bailed out Chrysler with direct aid! The airline handouts since 9/11 are far more direct subsidies than any guaranteed loan! The illegal steel tariffs the Bush admin put on and then backed off on after knowing they would be pilloried at the WTO are no less direct national govt intervention in an industry than what Airbus gets and even more so.

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