Delta Announcement Now Playing; Listen Here Free!

Guest · Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:41 am

The 777's are staying. That's the only aircraft Delta has that can do NRT non stop. Plus if some of you would read carefully, Delta is going after service to China. What are they gonna do that with, a 764?...lol

The 777's are there to stay. As a matter of fact, don't be suprised if they take another one in a reasonable amount of time. Big grin

But what do I know, right RichieRich?...Acvitale? Guys, are you there? Big grin

B

aa777jr · Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:48 am

Looks like DL is headed for bankrupcy...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131739,00.html

ConcordeBoy · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:13 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131739,00.html

.....er, wrong article

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119606,00.html

NWDC10 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:13 am

Bankrupcy likely. It will heavily cost Delta to restructure if they even get that far. Robert NWDC10

BIGBlack · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:20 am

More song is a great thing. Wow so the big day has come and gone. You guys were right on target with your assessments.

Are they going to officially announce exactly what planes they are going to retire?

skibum9 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:21 am

" Atlanta will go over 1000 daily Delta (mainline/connection/Song; does not include SkyTeam partners) flights." This is just plane STUPID!!!

Whenever it rains or snows in Atlanta is screws up the whole Delta system. This will now only get worse! Further, one of the big problems for people traveling from the northeast to the west is that they don't want to go through Atlanta as it is too far south and adds too much time to their trips. This will not attract the Business travelers!! They would have been better off growing CVG and SLC mainline and reducing ATL. I know they said they were increasing CVG, but all but one of the new flights will be Comscare! By spreading out the mainline flights to the three hubs, they would attract more business travelers from the NE, have a more efficient route structure, and reduce the operating costs associated with the delays in ATL. I guess the DL brass still continue to drink too much of that ATL koolaid!

This restructuring will not do the job. DL is bankruptcy bound!

Aloha717200 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:32 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119606,00.html

I wouldn't trust anything Fox Skews says...

MAH4546 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:40 am

Finaly! South Florida gets non-stops to Salt Lake City. Very much welcomed, and these will do very will in the winter filling up with ski traffic. It doesn't know here, but South Floridians love to ski. So much so that American Airlines offers two weekly non-stop flights from Miami to Vail, Colorado during the winter. Would've like to see MIA get an SLC flight too, instead of just FLL, but, oh well. FLL is where Delta is strongest in the region.

Guest · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:48 am

Aa777jr, NWDC10, Skibum9...

They've been saying that for what, six months now? We all know if they don't get consessions from the pilots they'll have to file chapter 11, it's old news. Insane

Whenever it rains or snows in Atlanta is screws up the whole Delta system.

That's funny, we had a tropical storm over Atlanta yesterday and operations weren't that affected. Snow? Oh you mean the once-every-three-year occurence where ATL might get 3 inches? Yea, that's rough. Insane

Further, one of the big problems for people traveling from the northeast to the west is that they don't want to go through Atlanta as it is too far south and adds too much time to their trips.

Um, CVG is expanding too. That's why it's there.

This will not attract the Business travelers!! They would have been better off growing CVG and SLC mainline and reducing ATL. I know they said they were increasing CVG, but all but one of the new flights will be Comscare! By spreading out the mainline flights to the three hubs, they would attract more business travelers from the NE, have a more efficient route structure, and reduce the operating costs associated with the delays in ATL. I guess the DL brass still continue to drink too much of that ATL koolaid! This restructuring will not do the job. DL is bankruptcy bound!

Wow, how was Grinstein chosen over you? Insane

B

RJNUT · Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:58 am

i agree, BK is coming! Lots of new markets that take time to develope,, money spent on updating interiors and "easier for travellers to get lower fares online'" will not improve you bottom line..

Stupid!
and where is the big reduction in RJ flying that the CEO is so against, and didnt he make disparing remarks about SONG, now they are increasing!

Clueless!

drerx7 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:00 am

The plan does have some sound points--refocusing that many resources to ATL is not the most ideal solution in my opinion--however, by unbanking flights there they will be able to lessen the ripple effect of weather or other late flights. Closing DFW was a wise move as they had stopped putting resources into that operation some time ago. As far as there product goes--it desperately needs to be revamped so hopefully this will do the job for Delta.

skibum9 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:04 am

"That's funny, we had a tropical storm over Atlanta yesterday and operations weren't that affected. Snow? Oh you mean the once-every-three-year occurence where ATL might get 3 inches? Yea, that's rough."

Hmm...I can count a number of times last winter that snow screwed up the system. ATL is notorious for causing ground stops for not only congestion, which the de-banking will help, but also due to rain as you need more separation for aircraft on report, and the last time I checked ATL only has two runways for larger planes, typically the DL mainlines.

"Um, CVG is expanding too. That's why it's there"

Hmmm...Yep CVG is expanding, but as I mentioned all except for one are Comscare CRJs. That is real expansion! It will really attract the business traveler!

"Wow, how was Grinstein chosen over you?"

Response: Personal attacks are not called for on this board! Given that your profile says you are from ATL, I can understand your bias, however the fact remains that Girnstein has mentioned many times that DL needs to attract the business travels and rely less on the leisure market. This restructuring does not accomplish this at all. Business travelers are NOT going to fly to ATL from the NE to fly out west, nor are they going to tak an RJ to CVG to fly out west.

MAH4546 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:17 am

On another note, what is happening to Beaumont/Port Author service? It was one of three Delta cities served only from Dallas. Delta mentioned Amarillo and Lubbock ending, but nothing about BPT. Odd, because of all the three, BPT is by far the smallest market. Although DFW-BPT is also locally subsidized. Will ATL-BPT be starting?

Guest · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:17 am

Personal attacks are not called for on this board!

Oh ok, since you have such an intimate knowledge of the rules of this forum, did you see the one about backing up your opinions with facts? Where is your documentation of the "many times" snow impacked ATL last year? or "Business travelers are NOT going to fly to ATL from the NE to fly out west, nor are they going to tak an RJ to CVG to fly out west." Can you prove any of this?

Comscare CRJs...Girnstein

Your credibility just landed somewhere in Idaho.

Yes, you're right Skibum...you too RJnut, Delta has no clue what it's doing...lol...Carry on with your posts, they are very entertaining. Big grin

B

srbmod · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:25 am

Perhaps the Do328Jets are the other of the four fleet types to be retired (In addition to the 737 Classics{732,733} [I would not be surprised if the 733s goe to FX], and the 767-200). There's no need to find someone else to operate them since the ACA routes can easily be filled by ASA since they're dropping DFW. With 202 DCI flights being dropped @ DFW, I would guess that the bulk of the 37 new DCI flights out of SLC will be by OO, with the EV a/c formerly @ DFW will be deployed to the Northeast to take over the ACA routes and many of the newly announced DCI routes. The Song expansion is definitely a bit of a surprise considering the attitude Grinstein had towards it when he first became CEO.

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:35 am

Just assuming but the new and additional flights from RDU will probably be Comair, correct? The only ASA we have now is to DFW.. and as that is gone.. and Comair has some sort of fondness with RDU.. and Delta has prepaid RDU for the year, probably Comair.. yes?

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2004/09/06/story6.html

Dean Hill, president of Campbell-Hill Aviation Group and Aaron Taylor, a vice president at Arlington, Va.-based aviation consulting firm Eclat Consulting, both believe RDU is in good position to weather the immediate impact if one or both of the airlines go into Chapter 11 reorganization.

Hill says that the Triangle's relatively strong economy is a draw to both airlines, making Raleigh less attractive as a site to cut flights. And unlike hub airports such as Charlotte-Douglas International, RDU has a diverse mix of carriers that would continue to serve the airport even if Delta and US Air reduce service.

To help protect the airport financially, RDU officials implemented a policy several years ago that requires financially troubled carriers to continually pay operating expenses such as rent and landing fees at least two weeks in advance. US Airways, which began early payments in August 2002, and Delta, which began the early payments in April 2004, currently are the only airlines at RDU that operate on the cash advance program.

phollingsworth · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:48 am

Hmm...I can count a number of times last winter that snow screwed up the system. ATL is notorious for causing ground stops for not only congestion, which the de-banking will help, but also due to rain as you need more separation for aircraft on report, and the last time I checked ATL only has two runways for larger planes, typically the DL mainlines.

Atlanta can be problematic; however, it is better than OHR and around the same as Dallas in this regard. As for only having two runways, that is totally incorrect.

ATL has four runways two >=10,000 ft and two at 8,000 ft, one is just shy of 12,000 ft. This is large enough for all a/c operated. Two runways are used for T/O and two for landing. This is an extremely efficient operation. Anyhow a fifth parallel (8,000 ft) runway will be opening in the future, this will greatly improve operations in poor weather.

AUAE · Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:50 am

I think a lot of you are glossing over the extent of the network changes. GG said that over 50% of the network will be "restructured" on Jan 31. That is a huge number. There are going to be tons of network changes, and the simple press release today that detailed a few of them does not give merit to the scale and complexity of the changes coming down the pike. I am sure that those of you with access to the OAG will be digging in for days.

Also, the idea that banks propogate system delays is wrong. Usually every bank is followed by a down time until the next bank starts, ie a catch up time. I think when you lay the cards on the table, there are a lot of ups and downs to banked versus unbanked structures. DL thinks there are savings to be made by depeaking, and that is very important in the current state of the industry.

Shawn

skibum9 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:01 am

NonRevKing....

- I never said only snow impacts ATL. Learn to read! But now that you mention it, it is funny how ATL has a delay as we speak!

Proof of delays at ATL: Directly from the FAA this very minute..."Due to WEATHER, LOW CIGS, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving The William B Hartsfield International Airport, Atlanta, GA (ATL). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 1 hour and 3 minutes."

In addition, ATL is ranked the eighth worst airport in the US for delays, according to an FAA study in 2001, but expected to modestly improve with the new runway for regional jets. Those figures are not recent enough for you? How about the fact that according to the US Department of Transportation, in 2003 ATL had an on-time arrival percentage of 74.1%, which is third worst in the country, next to ORD and PHL. Are you going to dispute real figures here? Do a search on the internet, and you too can find the facts!

Can you prove the business travelers will not travel from the NE to ATL to travel out west? However, business travel is a tool that enables company personnel to do business in another location. The goal of a trip is to make a sales call, visit a plant, or negotiate a deal...not to fly on a plane or stay in a hotel. As such they will minimize the amount of time they travel. Going from Boston to ATL to San Diego is not an option when they can go direct on another airline. Leisure travel is much more likely to do it if the price is right.

So go take your mindless, uneducated comments elsewhere. You, my sir, have absolutely NO credibility.

deltairlines · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:05 am

I just want to point out the fact that the Fox News Article that ConcordeBoy linked to is from May 11, 2004...

Jeff

BIGBlack · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:09 am

I also find it funny he himself was a Song critic, and now they are expanding service, I guess the people have spoken.

Guest · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:12 am

So go take your mindless, uneducated comments elsewhere. You, my sir, have absolutely NO credibility.

Aaaaaaahahahaha! Classic! Laugh out loud

B

N160LH · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:14 am

I heard after all the VP's in DFW did their announcement, that the pilots have until the end of the month to take a pay cut, or its bankruptcy time. The four aircraft that will be cut are 737-200/300 MD-90 and yes folks The MD-88. If DL goes down to four or five types of aircraft then they will not need 2 aircraft of similar size ie 737-800 and the MD-88. The 800 is newer with better range and lifting capabilities. Most of the 757's look like they are heading for a green paint job, and DL just pulled all of its 767-200 out of the desert. Why would they pull an aircraft out of the desert just to throw it right back. Plus it will be much easier to sell the MD-88 with an updated interior. With DL wanting a ATL-China route it is clear that the 777 is going no where. DL has already been down that road with the MD-11 making unscheduled stops in ANC because it does not have the legs to make it to NRT. So I think it is safe to say, that the rumor of the MD-11 coming back can be put to bed.

N160LH

drerx7 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:14 am

"Will DL start ATL-BPT?"
Delta will just use the Continental Codeshare to route passengers to places that were conveniently served by the DFW hub via IAH.

aa777jr · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:18 am

What is this, like the 4th or 5th blog regarding DL going down in flames?

OPNLguy · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:22 am

Just FWIW, I saw one post on another board that mentions the four fleet types getting axed as the 737-200, 737-300, 737-800, and 767-200.

The same guy also posted that UPS is set to acquire Delta's hangar at DFW...

We'll see...

GroundStop · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:27 am

Skibum9,

I worked at ATL last winter (not for Delta, but for a big competitor of theirs) and I remember snow (not even snow, but ice) affecting the operation.....once. One morning, there was a significant ice event which caused all aircraft to have to be deiced. As the day progressed, the temperature rose and our crews opted to not deice any longer. Delta continued to deice the rest of the day which caused considerable congestion on their ramps. The result was Delta placing themselves on a voluntary ground stop to all ATL inbounds. This only helped us get our flights in more quickly.

JP

AirTran SOC

Guest · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:32 am

Be careful James, since that makes him look silly he might accuse you of being "uneducated". Big grin

B

Gnomon · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:34 am

All the speculation regarding the four fleet types getting the boot is interesting. In true A.net fashion, compelling arguments have been made for all of the suggestions -- 732, M88, M90, 762, M11, even 777.

My only question is why DL wasn't explicit in its release as to the four types that will be leaving over the next four years. The rest of the release certainly wasn't lacking in specificity.

Would releasing that info be tipping its competitive hand in some way?

FWIW, I would add that I, too, am puzzled by the expansion of Song notwithstanding Grinstein's vague remarks earlier this year that, to some, cast doubts on Song's profitability.

Is there any indication that more Song expansions are coming down the line, after the 12-aircraft transfer? Are we to assume the 12 aircraft mentioned will be more 757s? I remember some speculation here that 738s might be melodious (sorry) additions to the Song fleet...

BIGBlack · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:36 am

757/738?

Sounds like ATA

I hope Song sticks with an all 757 fleet

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:38 am

Perhaps with a smaller fleet, like the 738.. they can offer song to some other stations.. like RDU??? never know.. could happen.. or it couldn't.. whichever comes first.

BIGBlack · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:45 am

Perhaps with a smaller fleet, like the 738.. they can offer song to some other stations.. like RDU??? never know.. could happen.. or it couldn't.. whichever comes first.

Very good point.

I would actually love if they did that. I do business in NC from time to time and I would love a BOS-RDU run in a Song 738. For now I am talking US 735 and A319/320's through CLT or PHL to RDU. I used to fly now defunct Midway direct to RDU from BOS. I loved the planes. They had a fleet of 738's. I was sad to see them go under.

OPNLguy · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:50 am

>>>I used to fly now defunct Midway direct to RDU from BOS. I loved the planes. They had a fleet of 738's. I was sad to see them go under.

Just FYI, Midway had 737-700s, not -800s.... Big grin

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:53 am

Midway should have taken the financial backing of SAS Institute owners when they had the chance. I mean, coul dyou imagine.. your airline being backed by one of the riches men around? Good Grief! Midway could have possiblity made it with some restructruing.. but, I guess egos got in the way...

There are direct flights from BOS on AE and DL..

Hopefully US will offer some N/S soon....

Would love for the 6 daily RJ to MCO to turn to 4 song 738.. 5 daily RJ to FLL to turn to 3 Song 738.... And then a DL Song 738 to LAX! Smile/happy/getting dizzy

As far as Song in BOS.. RDU-BOS, RDU-NYC, RDU-WAS, RDU-ATL are extremely heavy business routes.. I believe the frequency is much too important to airlines than for larger a/c....

BTW.. is DL gonna open any new stations with these changes? Would love to see them do a 2x daily RJ to New Bern, NC (KEWN)

[Edited 2004-09-08 22:58:08]

BIGBlack · Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:58 am

Just FYI, Midway had 737-700s, not -800s....

Oh yea, that's right, sorry. Well, I still liked them.

LOL

Midway should have taken the financial backing of SAS Institute owners when they had the chance. I mean, coul dyou imagine.. your airline being backed by one of the riches men around? Good Grief! Midway could have possiblity made it with some restructruing.. but, I guess egos got in the way...

There are direct flights from BOS on AE and DL..

Hopefully US will offer some N/S soon....

Would love for the 6 daily RJ to MCO to turn to 4 song 738.. 5 daily RJ to FLL to turn to 3 Song 738.... And then a DL Song 738 to LAX!

As far as Song in BOS.. RDU-BOS, RDU-NYC, RDU-WAS, RDU-ATL are extremely heavy business routes.. I believe the frequency is much too important to airlines than for larger a/c....

Egos do hurt the customer sometimes Sad

I know about the AE flights, I just prefer bigger planes for some reason. Consider it a security blanket or a personal preference. Anyway, I can imagine a bunch of options for Song out of BOS utilizing the 738 and I am on board. All they have to do is announce them.

FutureFO · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:00 am

Just a point that US does not operate the 735. They operate the 733/734. They currently do not have any 737NG's. Also CVG is where we at Skyway are supposed to jump into and we have not heard anythng yet as far as a schedule or if we are going to go to another airport to operate as DLC. Oh well my 2 cents worth and maybe more.

Sean from MCO and CVG

LambertMan · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:05 am

While those routes you mention may have business traffic, that isn't Song's niche. Their whole concept is based around leisure traffic...

Back to the topic, I'm surprised that SLC had so many additions and DFW was cut so deeply. I was expecting that they would keep a few business routes around like LAX, SFO, BOS, NYC for the reason that there is a large FF base in Dallas that they could have taken advantage of, now those routes are open season to AA. Some expansion out of SLC was due i.e. South Florida, but some additions that I'm seeing aren't really what I expected.

But then again, I guess they know more than I do.

dutchjet · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:06 am

Good news and bad news, lets see if this plan is enough to keep DL out of the bankrupcty courts. Cutting 7000 jobs should improve the bottom line.

Many of us seem to agree that the 732, 733 and MD90 aircraft will be eliminated from the DL fleet - but which is the fourth type? Is it the 762 - I personally dont think so as DL needs its widebody/long-range aircraft, especailly with the suggestions that DL will do more long-haul flying and routes to China being a possibility.

I think that DL, internally, considers the 733 two types of aircraft - one with the older cockpit and the other with the glass cockpit (called the 73G in DL land, and its not the 737-700, a DL expert probably can help us out here)....maybe the 732, 733, 73G and MD90s will be retired?

BIGBlack · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:06 am

I am one number off today.

sorry

MSYtristar · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:09 am

It's good to see the return of MSY-SLC, even if it is at the expense of MSY-DFW. Delta flew MSY-SLC twice daiily from about 1997 though 2002 (once daily from '88 to '97), with a mixture of 72S, 757, and the occassional 767 aircraft.

It's the end of an era as far as Delta's MSY-DFW service goes. Not that long ago the route saw 763 and 757 service and, before then, L10's. Times have changed a lot to say the least.

phollingsworth · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:13 am

In addition, ATL is ranked the eighth worst airport in the US for delays, according to an FAA study in 2001, but expected to modestly improve with the new runway for regional jets. Those figures are not recent enough for you? ...

The problem here is that the 5th runway is not an RJ runway. That was the original plan. However, the growth of mainline operations necessitated the construction of a regular 8,000 ft runway. This is usable by all arriving operations and 80-90% of departing operations.

Also, the idea that banks propogate system delays is wrong. Usually every bank is followed by a down time until the next bank starts, ie a catch up time. I think when you lay the cards on the table, there are a lot of ups and downs to banked versus unbanked structures. DL thinks there are savings to be made by depeaking, and that is very important in the current state of the industry.

I think one of the problems, at least at ATL is the banks completely overwhelm the air-side capacity, I think the fair weather capacities for ATL are 180-190 inbound and 160-170 outbound (this is from a discussion with the airport engineers a few years ago). In bad weather the inbound capacity drops faster than the outbound capacity. This is why the 5th runway really helps poor weather ops. This overwhelming means that extra time has to be alloted in the flight schedules. This reduces effective utilization. Also, don't many of the current ATL banks literally run into each other, i.e the arrivals for the next bank coincide with the departures for the current bank. This would seem like the ideal case for staggering operations.

Anyway, CVG at midday is really a ghost town, so there is definitely a fair bit more capacity at that airport. That and CVG is adding a third N-S runway, giving them 4 runways (3 >=10,000 ft).

Pete

njdevilsin03 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:22 am

So what will the remaining flights at DFW be? Just ATL, CVG, SLC? or will it also include SFO, LAX, MCO, FLL, PHX?

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:24 am

While those routes you mention may have business traffic, that isn't Song's niche. Their whole concept is based around leisure traffic...

That was the entire point of my arguement.. those were business routes and the likelyhood of seeing mainline to any of those destinations would be unlikely unless business traffic increased greatly...

njdevilsin03 · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:27 am

And where is everyone seeing new route announcements out of SLC? I'm waiting to see the FLL flight announcement but haven't found it.

GroundStop · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:27 am

Of course ATL has delays right now. Its the busiest airport in the WORLD and the current ceiling is 1800' OVC. Its not real surprising that theres a delay program. We deal with it....you might as well...it ain't gonna change.

JP

AUAE · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:38 am

Also, don't many of the current ATL banks literally run into each other, i.e the arrivals for the next bank coincide with the departures for the current bank. - Phollingsworth
**

Not enmasse. There are trailers at the end of the banks that bleed over, but in general, there are start and end times to the banks. All I am saying is that everyone jumps on the bank structures like they are bad news. They aren't. They don't offer the best utilization of assets, like you state, but they have positives. Short connect times and directional connections. Banks tend to get bloated, like you state, but those banks also tendsto be ones that are on the most popular times to fly. Banks or no banks, 8:00 am at any large airport is going to max the ATC flow rates.

Shawn

OPNLguy · Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:41 am

>>>So what will the remaining flights at DFW be? Just ATL, CVG, SLC?

That's what I hear...

dl757md · Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:31 am

"do they have any 757 w/ ETOPS?"

I just heard from a buddy in DAL management that they are looking at several 757s with ETOPS to be picked up on leases.

ETOPS isn't associated with the specific aircraft. That is to say that if DL bought 757s that are ETOPS certified at X airline the ETOPS certification wouldn't transfer. ETOPS certification is specific to an airline/aircraft type. ETOPS is an aircraft maintenance program, not an aircraft option.

I don't think DL is looking at ETOPS for any 757s but rather the statement was to increase international presence for DL mainline 67-77 rather than Song 57s.

Dl757md

jerion · Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:34 am

How many flights does DL have out of CMH?

BDL-CMH seems odd to me. Does anyone know if these flights will be mainline DL or connection flights?

N160LH · Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:40 am

DL has 4 757 rated with ETOPS 6901,6902,6903,6904.

NonRevking-

Okay you win...

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