Although there are numerous post regarding today's (Sept 8) announcement by Delta of it's restructuring plan, there does not appear to be one thread devoted to the question of the fleet retirements.

Here is what DL mainline currently operates:
B-737-200
B-737-300
B-737-800
B-757-200
B-767-200
B-767-300
B-767-400
B-777-200
MD-88
MD-90

Now, which ones do you think will be gone in four years as Delta says.

My guess:
B-737-200
B-737-300
MD-90
A real toss up --- B-767-200 or B-767-400 or even the B-777-200

State your guesses here!

My pics:
737-200
737-300
MD-90
767-200

The question is, does DL have enough mainline aircraft if this was correct? MD-80's and 737-800's? Of course these will be phased out within 4 years so DL could build up its 737-800 fleet by then.

NW7E7

737-200
737-300
MD-90
767-200

I doubt the 777 would go, just wouldn't make sense.

I would say the older models so...

B-737-200
B-737-300
B-767-200
MD-88

I'm with you

What would they use to fill the gap between the 737-800 and CR7 if they got rid of the MD-88?

They better not get rid of the 767-400 before febuary when I fly on it!

I question what DL will fly in the 100 seat arena if the ax the 732 .

Obuviusly that's a gap way to big for an airline to operate (CRJ-700 w/ 70 seats vs. MD80 w/ 140-50 seats) without compesanting for the markets in between these sizes, so the question becomes, after the retirements, what type will DL introduce to fill the 100-125 seat gap?

I'm guessing for retirements:

B732
B733
B762
MD80

For fleet within the next 4 years:
738
752
764
772
To replace the 732s-
E170 or 190
or 717 (you never know)

Actually selling the 777 would make sense as they are relativly new so they could get some serious money for them and they only operate a few of the type. DL has deffered a number of the 777 orders keeping the number of them in the fleet low. The 767-300 could operate on most the routes the currently fly across the atlantic.

thoughts?

-PhilzyMCO

Believe it or not..did anybody stop to think that MD-11s are in a "temporary stored" status?  

TokyoNarita.

I thought DL applied for China service, a route that could only be flown with the 777. If they're serious about that, then I doubt they'd get rid of their 777s.

737-200
737-300
737-3G, yes it is a different type, flying only on shuttle routes. Pilots have to be certified for this specific type.
767-200.

Not Md88, spending too much on new interior, too large of a fleet to replace, and we own many of them.
Not Md90 They require a specific type to fly but they do the job in some markets and yes they are owned.
Not 777, need them to fly the long haul and they are the future.

When you look for possible planes to get rid of think of high cost due to age, fleet size, and if they are owned or leased.

The MD-88 isn't going anywhere. DL has 120 of em' and they're the first aircraft to be refurbished. The fleet types likely going are:

737-200
737-300
767-200
MD-90

Unless of course DL is counting the MD-11 as one of them, considering they still own 8. DL says they will increase flights by reducing aircraft by having better aircraft utilization, most likely quicker turn arounds and less ground time.

Jeremy

My bet is on 732, 733, MD90, and 777. The 762 shares fleet commonality, and when compared to a NW DC9, are still fairly young. The 777 hasn't shown it's need, since DL keeps deferring orders. The 763ER fleet can provide all the ETOPS lift they need. I personally think that China is Grinstein's pipe dream. Use the codeshare partners NW, KE and CZ to provide transpac lift, focus on your strength across the Atlantic. Especially if US goes CH7, there's money to be made on the Atlantic, and even to South America, using ATL as a connect point to catch the traffic CO won't get thru EWR and IAH.

Guy's i think we are missing the MD-11 in all our lists, since they are still owned/stored by delta. it would really make money to get them out of the desert and lease them to other airlines or just sell them...

these types are in my ''guess retirement list''

737-200's : they are just simply old and during the high fuell costs it isn't the most profitable airliner... also the maintenance cost are really high since they are showing theire age... and a lot of them reaching the max cycles very soon i guess.

767-200: for most reasons just because its getting old and i don't think Delta really needs it, they already have 757's 767-300/400 737-300/800 and some times 777 for theire USA routes.

MD-11: still owned by delta, so guess they mean the MD-11 in theire list of ''4 types to be retired''

MD-90: they don't have to much of them and think the MD-80 could simply do the MD-90 job. since the MD-90 are very popular with airlines Like SAS they could easely catch a lot of money for them..



about the 737-300, think they will stay since the aren't to old and doing theire job's correctly



greetings maurice

The thing about the 777s is that, unless the pull the 777s out of the desert, they are the only plane DL has that can do ATL-NRT, let alone china. Now they do make money on that NRT flight, so they need something.

What would they use to fill the gap between the 737-800 and CR7 if they got rid of the MD-88?

The MD-88 and 738 are the same size airliner, approximately.

N

While I agree with the consensus, it brings up a good question. If the 737-3G (or 737-300 in general) are removed, what will happen to the Delta Shuttle?

The simple answer would be to return the 737-800's, but if they couldn't fill them before, would it make sense to return the larger aircraft now?

However, if USAirways disappears, I'm sure DL wouldn't have a problem with the -800's

Hmmm..Airlines are such a interesting business!

Looking att his from a maintainence perspective, the first to go would be the MD-90. These have completely oddball engines (V2500) and are a relatively small fleet. Recently, the market for used MD-90s seems to be picking up, and the capacity they offer is comparable to other aircraft currently in the fleet.

737-200: These are not quite as old as people thing, some being only 16 or so years old. The basic 737 airframe has common parts with the 733, and the JT8D is not too far away from the JT8D-200s on the MD-88. The two things that would tend to keep these in the fleet are 1) low resale value on the hulls (glut of used 732s already), and 2) no other 100 seaters in the fleet.

737-300: Already addressed trhe parts comminality, and the basic CFM-56 maintanence infastructure is in place for the 738 fleet. I would actually not be suprised to see these retired before the 732s go, as the MD-88 offers capacity overlap. A big strike is the UA 733 and 735 fleet which is coming off lease and finding its way onto the second hand market.

757-200: Some of these birds are getting long in the tooth. I wouldn't be suprised to see some age related retirements to a few airframes, as some are older than the 732s.

767-200: Delta just went through a lot of trouble reactivating all the stored 767s. These are versitile, but I think we'll see the same fate as with the 752s, retirement of some of the older models. With UA and AA disposing of their 762 fleets, there is a bit of an overcapacity on the used market. If the USAF tanker deal goes through though, some may be bought for spares. Also look for impact of the 762 cargo conversion that just recently became available. This may also pick up demand in the used sector for -ER models.

The rest of the fleet will stay pretty much as is, with the exception of the MD-11 fleet which will come back in a much smaller form, especially if air cargo volumes continue to rise. Belly cargo space will be a great revenue earner for those MD-11s that haven't gone to World, been damaged (802) or back to their lessors.

MD-88's will be around for many,many years to come and according to a few friends there it wasnt even mentioned as a candidate to go.

From my sources it will be the 732 733 73G and MD11....

The MD11's are according to who I am talking with at DL already on their way out the door (someone is talking with DL to buy at very cheap price)

The 732's 733's and 73G's I havent really heard much about...but they all are somewhat old and need to be replaced or rid of from what I have been told...

As stated earlier DL announced intentions to go to China...the 777 or MD11 is needed for the trip...My guess the 777 will take the route...

Also rumor w/in DL is that 2-4 of the MD90s will go to Shuttle and the rest will just operate out of SLC and ATL.

The Mad Dogs aren't going anywhere (with exception the the Tri-jet)

The 777 hasn't shown it's need

They need them for half of their current Asian service, not to mention potential future



since DL keeps deferring orders.

DL's deferring orders because it cannot get preferential finance rates, not because it doesn't have a use for the aircraft.

Here are my definitive guesses:

737-200/300/300 Glass - The -300 can be replaced pretty easily by the MD-80 (its about another 10 seats...); the -200 will be gone by 2008, so that's another one.

767-200 - This plane is getting up there in age, some are over 20 years old already. I wouldn't be shocked if this plane went.

I think the MD-90s will stay. I have heard a rumour that they would be placing these on the Shuttle, which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion. They would probably seat about 140 in a single class Shuttle configuration, which would be a good capacity (about halfway between the 73Gs and 738s). They have monitors, which is good for short subject programming (they could show CNN news on that). They have the rear exit, like the old 727s, that could be used to expedite deplaning. Pretty much the only thing they would need is Powerports for laptops...

The MD-88s are here to stay. They are retrofitting them, and they are the backbone of the East Coast network. I don't see them leaving until 5 years from now at the earliest, but not anytime before then.

Jeff

This may sound silly, but since the MD90 has a decent video/sound system, couldn't DL fit these into the SONG scenario on routes that require less seats than a 757??

Why would they announce just a few months ago that they will resume the delivery of the 777's in a few years and now get rid of them? Doesn't make sense, they aren't going anywhere, much to many peoples dismay they need them.

I would say, 732 and 762 definately. Maybe they will add some CR9's to take place of the 732, what kind of extra training do the flight crews need for CR9's as compared to the CRJ/CR7? I'm not going to speculate on the others too much, but probably the 733's (and the other "variant" of them) and MD-90 or MD-11 (if they are still counting them as being "in the fleet and needing crews for them".

Also, like others have said why would the MD-88's be going anywhere if they are going to put that kind of money into them?

We will know in due time.  

I think the MD-90s will stay. I have heard a rumour that they would be placing these on the Shuttle, which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.

I agree with this. The 90 is a great plane, can be a dedicated fleet for just shuttle ops, and 16 is the right number (remember the original 738 fleet for Shuttle was 16 aircraft).

The 90 is also noise exempt at almost all US airports, allowing DL to operate early and late flights at DCA.

It is also equipped with the screens for the short programming they used to show on the 738 but cannot on the 733-G.

N

DOT will not award routes to a carrier whose fleet that can barely cover the Asian route. AA has loads of 777s operating and some close to delivery. CO has no long-haul aircraft on order nor DL. Expect, more route awards to NW, UA, and perhaps AA. Too bad DL. You guys are barking down the wrong path at least when it comes to coming cross the Pacific.

Getting back to the topic, I am saddened to hear four types are to be retired. Although economically making sense, I hope they rescind this decision. At least the MD-11 and MD-90 are out the door as the numbers are small and have almost no commonality with the rest of the fleet.

Can the 733/73S retirement mean more RJ flying? Didn't the CEO of this company say something about re-evaluating RJ flying.

I hope they rescind this decision.

Why would they?

Didn't the CEO of this company say something about re-evaluating RJ flying.


Yes, he said he wanted significantly less of it.

N

Delta's Current Fleet : From http://av-info.faa.gov/OpCert.asp

Aircraft - Number in Fleet

B-737-200 - 49
B-737-300 - 26
B-737-800 - 71
B-757-200 - 121
B-767-200 - 15
B-767-300 - 87
B-767-400 - 21
B-777-200 - 8
MD-88 - 120
MD-90 - 16

737-200-
If you look at http://www.delta.com/inside/investors/corp_info/fleet/index.jsp you will see that 46 of the 737-200's are leased, how hard would it be to return to the lesser?

737-300-
Once again all 26 of them are leased.

737-800-
Delta owns all 71

757-200-
77 are owned / 44 leased

767-200-
since all 15 are owned, they would be easy to replace with 763's and 752's on the ATL-FLA routes

767-300/ER-
55 owned / 32 leased

764- 21 owned

MD-88 - 63 owned / 57 leased

MD-90 - 16 owned.

Since there are only 16 MD-90's it would make since to replace them with 738's or put them on the shuttle routes.

-PHX757

Just a couple of points to ponder:

Some posters have mentioned that they thought the 737-800 would be removed. I disagree with this as I believe DL opted for the -800 as a replacement for the 727.

While everyone seems to agree that the 737-200 will leave the fleet, the question of 100 seat aircraft brings about a slight bit of disagreement regarding Delta's plans. If I recall, didn't Delta option for a mix of 737-600s, and -700s when the -800 was ordered? Seems to me that, while technically adding a new type with the -600, the addition of the smaller version of that particular family of aircraft would answer the question of the 100 seat aircraft while maintaining cockpit commonality.

I disagree with this as I believe DL opted for the -800 as a replacement for the 727.

DL opted for the 757 as a replacment for the 727. They then decided on the -800 to begin replacing the remaining 727s and MD-80s, when they time came.

At one point, the MD-90 was "Delta's plane for the 21st Century". See how that worked out.

N

PHX757,
How many of their 777's are owned by them?

You never answered that question, unless I wasn't paying attention.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL

I think they own them all, but don't quote me on that.

All of the 777s are owned by Delta.

jeremy

Yes, all eight 777s are owned.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the MD-11's are in the desert, then are they not retired anyway, just waiting for someone to come along and purchase/lease them like World has done with some of them already?

Definitely the 732's will go and probably the 762's. As for other types maybe the MD90, although I hope they send some to the east coast before they do!

Maybe the 88's will go on the Shuttle if the 300's go?

If they move the 90's to the shuttle, USeless Air can watch my dust!!

CO has no long-haul aircraft on order nor DL.

Wrong.

If Delta retires their 762's, at least I got to fly on one of them late last month (from SLC-SEA). The one I was on did look old on the inside, though it had the new "wavy tail" scheme on the outside. I'll be very glad to see the 733's go - I got to fly on them a couple of times and didn't like them very much, they didn't have flip down screens or radio that I remember, their interiors were "plain vanilla". When I fly Southwest I expect that, but when I take Delta I expect a little more, as other a/c in their fleet have flip down or video screens and audio entertainment. My first experience with Delta was on an MD-90, I liked flying on those birds. And I've read on here that the MD-90's are needed/wanted on some runs from SLC due to their improved "hot and high" performance over some other types in the fleet. If they wanted to branch out Song to the west, maybe they could use some 90's or 757's for that on runs to, say, PHX, LAS, or Mexico. Any thoughts on seeing those lime green tails in SLC anytime soon?

If someone told me to plan Delta's fleet, I'd take out the 732/733's and MD-11's first, then the 762's, replace all 762's with 752's. Then I'd plan to replace the other Mad Dogs with 736/73G's gradually as finances improve. Replace 752's with 739's and the 767's with the 7e7 when the balance sheets go to black.

Bubbinski

I think retirement of the 732/733 and 762 are givens (the former because of lease expirations, the latter because of age). I suspect the fourth type retired (permanently and officially, rather than temporarily) will be the MD11. I like the idea of the MD90's staying around, and possibly going to the shuttle. Delta is scheduled to take delivery of a bunch of 738's (around 50) in 2006-2007, which will significantly fill the gap left by the other aircraft leaving the fleet. Rather than ordering a new type or subtype of aircraft (e.g., 717 or 736), I think they'll adjust their schedule similar to what AA has done to adapt to the F 100 retirement.

Well, lets forget investing for long term efficient solutions for now.

no 736, 717, 7e7´s

What can they sell to survive the next 6 months ?

selling 738, 777 can bring in good money

get some 734´s from the desert to fill in the places left by the 738s

777 are owned & expensive,

rumours on Aeromexico sale ..

My guess is as follows:

737-200s, 737-300s and 737-300Glass Cockpit and the MD11s leave the DL fleet.

MD-88s are getting the new interior look.
MD-90s are assigned to the Shuttle and some noise-sensitive west coast routes out of SLC.
738-800s become a backbone of the DL domestic fleet.
757-200s remain at DL and Song.
767-200s remain and get a new look interior - DL needs all of the longhaul/widebody aircraft in the fleet since there will be no new widebodies joining the DL fleet in the near-term future and DL wants to increase long range flying. The 762s are useful for transcons, and Florida services, allowing some 763ERS to be assigned to new longrange routes.
767-300/ER remain - transatlantic becomes almost exclusively 763ER.
767-400 remain and continue to fly high-density domestic/Hawaii routes.
777-200 remain and fly the Tokyo route, new China routes (if granted), other Asia services (if opened) and an odd transatlantic or south america route out of ATL.

Regional jets of various sizes replace the 737 fleet.....there will be a lot of juggling of schedules and aircraft assignments once the DFW hub is shut down, so its hard to determine which aircraft will fly which routes, but look for even more widebody capacity into Florida.

Who knows... maybe DL will finally send some of the 764ERs over the pond, perhaps even in their current configuration (a la American 752)

That'd be pretty shweet, though, not quite sure what its financial results would be.

Syncmaster brings up an interesting proposition...Maybe they will add some CR9's to take place of the 732, what kind of extra training do the flight crews need for CR9's as compared to the CRJ/CR7? While I think this to be an improbable outcome for mainline DL, considering among other things that the net reduction in fleet types would be zero, it does however mesh well with Tech Ops desire to insource more RJ mtc(we currently do engines and system components). Their ability to do so would be greatly enhanced if DL provided the comprehensive mtc capabilities that flying the type mainline would require. It goes without saying that there is a huge number of RJs out there and somebody needs to fix them. DL Tech Ops is very competitive in their outsourcing mainly due to the efficiencies realized from a non-union, or "flexible" mtc workforce, as DL management likes to call it.

As for my guess about the types to be eliminated....

732 - somewhat old and doesn't fit into DL's long haul and superior customer service commitments. If not replaced by CR9s as Syncmaster suggested.

733 and 73G - same as 732 and too many variances within types.

DC-9 - OOPS wrong airline.. Sorry NW and DC-9 fans out there. I couldn't help myself.  

MD-11 - That is if DL is counting them as one of the four. I really liked working on them though they did have their problems.

If not the MD-11 then I would hope the the MD-90. The engines really do suck to work on. The shuttle would however make sense as a home for the 90. The same mtc crews would work them every night and should become proficient enough to negate the mtc handicap the 90 suffers. This along with reasons posted by others above make the shuttle option sound pretty attractive.

If not the MD-90 then probably the 762. This must make all the sense in the world to the bean counters but there is something more. Ship 102, The Spirit of Delta, is a 762. For the few of you that don't know the significance of that, it is the 767 that in 1982 DL employees each paid about $1500 to buy for the company during what at the time was the worst financial downturn the company had faced. Yes, many of those employees are no longer with DL but most of us who weren't with the company at the time have inherited the pride in that bird that those selfless benefactors of DL felt from their gesture. Employee morale at DL would take a huge hit, hindering our ability to achieve that which our company asks of us in these difficult times. So if you must retire the 762 please either keep 102 as the lone example or do whatever it takes to ensure that it ends up in the Delta Heritage Museum alongside the Huff Dalland Duster, TravelAir, and ship 41 where it belongs.

I doubt you will see the 121 752s go away as many are new and there aren't currently many mtc issues associated with the age of the older aircraft.

The 764 is too new, has too much in common with the 763, has too few interested buyers, and Dl is too happy with them.

The MD-88 stays. Dl wouldn't refurbish the cabins on them first if they were going to sell them. For those who think they are spiffing them up to sell them.
It's a lot like home remodeling. You don't get your money back out of it at resale.

738 stays. Yes the MD-90 was supposed to replace the 727 but it didn't... the 738 did.

763 stays.

772 stays unless MD-11 wins.

In summary
732 out
733 out
73G out
738 stays
752 stays
762 hopefully stays
763 stays
764 stays
777 likely stays
MD-11 likely out
MD-88 stays
MD-90 likely stays

Dl757md

What DL should do is pull MD-88s and 737-200 off of routes like CVG-CMH, CVG-CLE, CVG-IND, ATL-SAV, ATL-HSV, and put larger aircraft from those routes onto longer routes like CVG-COS, NAS, etc. DL's re-organization will definitely be interesting though, to say the least.

Jeremy

In thinking about the MD-11s I noticed that when DL sent the MD-11s to be stored in the desert or at Mirabel the DL titles weren't taken off as they have been with other aircraft...

examples:

View Large View Medium Photo © Derek Hellmann

View Large View Medium Photo © Youri Thonon

Anyone have any info why that would be?

So they are not offically retired?

Are they to make a comeback? The new China service perhaps? That would give them enough aircraft to "cover" the market as CarpetHead was saying...

Thoughts?

-PhilzyMCO

Aviation week says DL will retire..

50 737-200s, 26 737-300s, 16 767-200s, and either 13 MD-11s (already parked) or 16 M90s.

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_aviationdaily_story.jsp?id=news/del09154.xml

No carrier that wants to make a profit would retire a T7 man!!!

haha,
AA777jr

The question for all of this is WHEN...if they ditch the 732's, they lose ALOT of capacity. Ditch the 762's, they lose an excellent transcontinental hauler. The 733's and 90's would be replacable, but nothing like the larger fleets.

Would be nice to see the 11 back in ATL!

DeltaGuy