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jfklganyc
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DL At JFK . . .

Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:59 am

I know I am a JFK freak, but I seriously want to know what DL's plans are for JFK. I know they said that they would grow JFK and have added many domestic destinations; but I must say that the int'l side of things has faultered in recent years.
They used to compete with CO out of EWR on the number of European destinations each served but after 9/11 that has really stopped.
I'm curious about NRT, GVA, ZRH, MUC, DUB, SNN, CAI, TLV, MHT and even LGW. These were all served at one point (except LGW) so what gives? Will they ever be reinstated? Will CO everntually pass DL across the Atlantic?
Any thoughts?

PJ
 
sw733
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:26 am

Well...ok this is my opinion, having flown both CO and DL to europe from New York...CO is just a much better product, and all the places DL flies to with their 763's, CO flies to with 764's and 777's which have PTVs and such...so based on my experiences, CO is just a better airline for longhaul at a similar price...but that's just my opinion
 
N863DA
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:45 am

Since Continental and Delta are essentially no longer competitors in any markets (at least, as of entry into SkyTeam, later this month), then it is perhaps in Delta's best interest to let CO have the NYC-Europe routes, and for DL to concentrate on the domestic routes from NYC to the South and out west.

I'm not saying I have any wonderful idea of why this is the case (I'm just making an observation), but it would serve neither party for Delta to increase European flights to the level they once were, with Continental's massive operation across town at Newark already in full operation. One can use the advantages of the other (and at the very least, feed flights to EWR from CVG and ATL) and both can gain by the lack of competition.

The same can be said of operations in other areas, including Latin America. It would serve neither carrier's interests to compete with each other; so they may end up not doing so.

FLY DELTA JETS



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SafetyDude
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:15 pm

I'm curious about NRT,
There is too much competition at JFK.

DUB, SNN, CAI, TLV,
All were discontinued in 2001.

See these two threads for more information: https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1728230 and https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1724797.

and even LGW. These were all served at one point (except LGW) so what gives?
Under one of the Bermuda laws, there is a limit on how many airlines can serve NYC-London (LGW included).

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
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STT757
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:33 pm

So far all we have heard about DL at JFK is some new RJ flying, Pensacola, Tallahassee, Melbourne etc.. All routes CO currently does not serve from EWR, Melbourne being a on again off again route.

Also heard of some Song expansion, from what I've read more Transcon and "seasonal" flying. I think Song may eventualy take over all of DL's mainline domestic flying at JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, SAN etc.. Internationaly I think is harder because they are a distant third behind CO and AA in terms of International traffic from the NYC area, I really don't see anything new internationaly from JFK save maybe some more seasonal Caribbean flying (daily Aruba, Cancun, St.Thomas).

I know they mentioned they would like to fly to mainland China, but it's an open competition for the new authorities next year and CO and AA have much stronger cases for the new service.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:24 am

Since Continental and Delta are essentially no longer competitors in any markets

Uhhh, DL & CO still ~HEAVILY~ compete in a myriad of markets




then it is perhaps in Delta's best interest to let CO have the NYC-Europe routes, and for DL to concentrate on the domestic routes from NYC to the South and out west.

...what on Earth would be their incentive to do that?  Nuts




CO and AA have much stronger cases for the new service

..."much stronger cases"?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Guest

RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:33 am

then it is perhaps in Delta's best interest to let CO have the NYC-Europe routes, and for DL to concentrate on the domestic routes from NYC to the South and out west.

Why would Delta give another airline the routes that they are printing their own money on, just to concentrate on domestic where they're losing big time?

B
 
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STT757
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:10 am

"CO and AA have much stronger cases for the new service

..."much stronger cases"?"

Yes, AA and CO have shown a much stronger interest in developing Asian routes than DL. In fact DL has been going in the opposite direction of AA and CO with regards to Asian flying.

CO EWR-Shanghai or AA ORD-Shanghai have much more chances for success than DL CVG-Shanghai or ATL-JFK-Shanghai.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:32 am

Yes, AA and CO have shown a much stronger interest in developing Asian routes than DL.

DL also has an advantage they do not, namely, an antitrust-immune partner to do the dirty work for it. A compelling reason to focus its limited longer-longhaul fleet elsewhere.





In fact DL has been going in the opposite direction of AA and CO with regards to Asian flying.

Last I checked, DL metal still served more Asian destinations than AA  Laugh out loud





CO EWR-Shanghai or AA ORD-Shanghai have much more chances for success than DL CVG-Shanghai or ATL-JFK-Shanghai.

JFK-PVG/PEK and nonstop ATL-PVG could stand against either on nigh-equal footing... particularly seeing as UA is likely to already have been cleared/established on ORD-PVG before AA even gets the go-ahead.

I rather doubt DL would run either service via CVG, as 772ERs are likely to be on the route instead of M11s.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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STT757
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:55 am

"Last I checked, DL metal still served more Asian destinations than AA"

I should have said Pacific rim, or East Asia.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
gigneil
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:08 am

myriad of markets

You can't have a myriad of something.

I rather doubt DL would run either service via CVG, as 772ERs are likely to be on the route instead of M11s.

0 percent of Delta's previous China plans were with M11s, they were all with 777s, and DL still chose to route aircraft via CVG and JFK.

N
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:23 am

and DL still chose to route aircraft via CVG and JFK.

DL only chose to operate the flights from CVG because they had an agreement with DHL to carry their cargo to China had they been approved for the routes. The flight would have gone ATL-CVG-PEK 3x per week. Now that DHL will no longer be operating out of CVG; DL would likely reverse the routing if CVG was linked at all. The other 7 flights a week were supposed to go JFK-PEK-PVG, but all 10 flight requests were denied.
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Hirnie
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:03 am

Delta and Continental are allied in SkyTeam but airlines being in the same alliance are still competitors in some way, so Delta will not give up any (money making-)routes to Europe for Continental without compensation.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:17 am

Delta will not give up any (money making-)routes to Europe for Continental without compensation

While that is true the alliance could possibly keep CO out of a market. So while JFK-NCE remains profitable their partnership could keep CO from starting a EWR-NCE flight and instead putting the equipment on a EWR-BHX flight. The same holds true for DL. Instead of DL going JFK-BHX they use their equipment to add a ATL-EZE flight (which CO can codeshare on).
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:26 am

You can't have a myriad of something.

After a quick check; Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Britannica all beg to differ.... but of course, what do they know  Insane  Laugh out loud




0 percent of Delta's previous China plans were with M11s, they were all with 777s, and DL still chose to route aircraft via CVG and JFK.

Wrong again Piggie  Laugh out loud

DL tested fuel-freeze and routing measures under ETOPS207 with the eventual goal of opping its 772ERs on JFK-PEK/PVG.... however, operations for ALL of its proposed PRC services were contingent on beginning with M11s; as the 772ERs waited for Pacific-enabling modifications.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
N863DA
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:30 am

DeltaMIA,

While my wording was probably ambiguous, what you said was basically what I was trying to say.

Essentially, I'm not implying that DL will abandon all JFK-Europe routes that they already have, but that any new routes will be implemented with consideration to their partner, Continental's, routes out of EWR. Same goes for the other way around, too, I would suppose.

Then again, I have no inside knowledge of exactly how each carrier views the other.

FLY DELTA JETS



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dutchjet
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:39 am

I really do not think that CO will limit its long-haul expansion out of EWR to avoid competition with DL, and DL will not limit flights out of JFK to avoid competing with CO.....CO and DL are different airlines and act independently as each wants to be successful and each has shareholders that they are accountable to. That, in the future, DL and CO may belong to the same alliance and may code-share on certain flights is simply a marketing arrangment.....CO and DL will continue to compete with eachother for every passenger on every route.

Concerning DL at JFK, DL has had a rather difficult time....when DL first took over the Pan Am transatlantic routes, DL lost a fortune and cut back services rather dramatically in the following years. DL began adding new services out of JFK just as the economy weakened and then the events of 9/11 took place causing yet another cutback. DL was then distracted by a plan to launch transatlantic services out of BOS which really did not work out. And, a major problem is DL's rather weak domestic feed at JFK.....DL has added and dropped many domestic routes out of JFK over the years (not to mention the Delta Express and Song experiments which do not appeal to connecting international premium customers) so more and more Europe bound and Europe originating passengers in the DL system transfer in CVG and course ATL. Even in a strong market like NYC, O&D traffic is simply not enough.

Much of CO's success at EWR is a unique combination of strong O&D traffic, excellent connection possibilities, a very good inflight product, and excellent terminal facilities. Hopefully, as part of its restructuring, DL will again focus on JFK's potential and re-launch JFK as a stronger European gateway.
 
panamair
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:42 am

JFK and EWR serve different segments of the NYC market. If you're on the East side of NYC or on Long Island, JFk is your airport. DL will not give up on JFk international flying just because CO has it out of EWR. The 763ERs are perfect for the routes out of JFk currently on a year-round basis and as JFK becomes increasingly usable (thanks to JetBlue and the new AirTrain) even for domestic flights, I think you will see DL increasing domestic flights, and eventually international flights. There is quite active internal lobbying with ATL HQ to get some of the pre-9/11 international flying back though the most probable ones would include JFK-DUB/SNN (do you see the loads on those flights out of ATL on the 777s during the summer?); JFK-MUC (JFk lost out to ATL this past summer for the extra MUC flight); and starting up JFK-PRG. ZRH, NRT, CAI/DXB, TLV are extremely long shots.

 
Cory6188
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:04 am

Well it has been heavily rumored that CO will start EWR-PRG with their entry into Skyteam, so DL may strongly back off on JFK-PRG if CO's route comes to fruition.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:40 am

Why would DL have that much interesting in PRG anyways... as it can revenue-share with OK on the route, and use its own equipment elsewhere?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
7e72004
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:26 am

I have one question...How much more time will it be before JFK becomes up to capacity? It seems like with DL's operations and JEtBlues new terminal that JFK will be just as bad as O'Hare, etc.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:33 am

With the exception of the former Concorde flights, a few Latin American arrivals, and a few B6s... you can basically go bowling on Kennedy's runways during the morning and early afternoon.


It's the late afternoon and evening intercontinental rush, that brings the airport to the brim of its capacity.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
7e72004
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:36 am

I see...i have never been to JFK...the only airport in that area that i have been to has been EWR.
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STT757
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:06 am

JFK's premier terminal T-4 is virtually deserted during the day up untill about 4Pm, very few people during the day.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:19 am

One exception, the hourly Indy Air flights...they all depart from T-4...granted, not quite like the evening widebody piled upon widebody piled upon widebody, but still, it's something...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
SafetyDude
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:44 am

JFK and EWR serve different segments of the NYC market. If you're on the East side of NYC or on Long Island, JFk is your airport. DL will not give up on JFk international flying just because CO has it out of EWR.
Not to mention that Delta does have its own international terminal at JFK.

JFK's premier terminal T-4 is virtually deserted during the day up untill about 4Pm
Not with planes, as many go on stand early in the morning. After 3 PM or so is when it gets really crowded.

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
globaldude
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:36 am

What in ASIA does Delta fly other than ATL-NRT?
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:43 am

What in ASIA does Delta fly other than ATL-NRT

JFK-SVO-JFK
CDG-BOM-CDG
FRA-BOM-FRA

although technically not Asia although part of the country is in Asia.
doesn't count but its close.

JFK-IST-JFK


[Edited 2004-09-14 02:44:08]
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
prosa
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:37 pm

What in ASIA does Delta fly other than ATL-NRT
JFK-SVO-JFK
CDG-BOM-CDG
FRA-BOM-FRA
although technically not Asia although part of the country is in Asia.
doesn't count but its close.
JFK-IST-JFK


SVO isn't in Asia either.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: DL At JFK . . .

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:09 pm

SVO isn't in Asia either.

Oops my bad.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.

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