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CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 12:55 am

This morning at 9:00EST in New York City Boeing's newest additions to its 777 family the 777-200LR and 777-300ER were launched. The two new airframes are scheduled to be delivered to airlines in September of 2003. While the exact number of launch orders were not stated (That will come later next month) it seems that around 50 airframes have been ordered. JAL, EVA, Emirates, ANA, GECAS, Singapore, Air France and Cathay Pacific.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
kaitak
Posts: 9869
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 1:51 am

Sorry, Cathay isn't going to be in the list. But I agree with the rest.
 
The777Man
Posts: 6117
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 4:53 am

YES!!! Finally launched!! The 777-200LR will make possible new routes like LAX-SIN and JFK-HKG. This is great news for us Aviation fans. I can't wait for the announcement of orders by the different airlines. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
Bicoastal
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 4:59 am

Not that I'm complaining, but I'm wondering why Air France is on the list. If it turns out to be true, then it's nice to see the French flagship look outside the EU for a product. I appreciate how hard it is for American and European airlines to resist nationalist pressures and make decisions based on the right aircraft for the right market, even if it's built elsewhere.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Guest

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:13 am

This is excellent news!!!! And I cannot wait for Delta to order some and start flying routes such as ATL-HKG (I have no idea whether they want any or want any such route, but I can dream can't I??)

But anyway the main point of my message:

Air France has never made any illusions - it is not particularly happy with its A340s.

Airbus is a consortium funded largely by the French Government, and Air France is state-owned by the French Government; they are sort of obliged to buy Airbuses. However, this does not mean they are happy with them - but they are very happy with their 777s - as is their Worldwide Partner - Delta.

Air France does not want to be seen to HATE the A340 by any stretch, as they do not, but the expression 'It climbs only due to the curvature of the Earth' springs to mind. The A340 may be a nice (and quite efficient)aircraft, as I am sure it is, but it does not seem to suit Air France's requirements, whereas the 777 does - perfectly so it seems.

I do not wish to encite riots so I have tried to choose my words carefully!




DLMD-11.
 
777X
Posts: 854
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Air France

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:13 am

Has been operating 777s for a while, so it's not that surprising that they would choose the 777x (although they did take a lot of flak for choosing the 777 in the first place)

777x
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7042
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:26 am

I hope Delta decides to order about 20-30 777-200LR's, for routes ATL-HKG, CBG-HKG, SLC-CDG, PDX-ACK (Auckland???) and PDX-SYD-MEL. This plane would really help Delta in the international market. For CX, rumor has it that their interested. Nice to see AF go with 777 over A340-500/600. If only Boeing does away with the exclusivity contract with GE.

Jeff
 
Guest

Good Idea DeltAirlines! A Couple Things Tho...

Wed Mar 01, 2000 5:54 am

Two things:

SLC-CDG is actually a very short route! I know I didn't think it was either but its only 4,900 miles! Quite short when you think about it!

And the code for Auckland, NZ is AKL.

And CBG is Cambridge in the UK!!! Maybe you mean CVG - Cincinnati?   Don't you just hate Typo's?!?!?

Just one thing - having spent quite a lot of time recently in Delta's coach cabin on their new 777s, I wouldn't like to be stuck in that seat for 18 hours non-stop - bulkhead would be fine (usually OK but sometimes we book late & other medallion flyers have gotten them already!) but other than that it could be a problem!

Maybe they would have a slightly more spacious configuration for the trans-pacific ones? Boy I would hope so! But with any luck one day I will be up the front end of the 777 for Delta - in the cockpit!

Just to clear some stuff up!!




DLMD-11.
 
DeltaAir
Posts: 1061
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RE: Good Idea DeltAirlines! A Couple Things Tho...

Wed Mar 01, 2000 6:21 am

Several carriers have signaled their interest. Taiwan's EVA Airways Corp. has said it might buy 10 of the new 777s. Air France is eager to buy 10 to 15 of them to replace the failing A-340s people familiar with the carrier have said. Delta is also working with AF to get a very large order for the U.S. carrier in an attempt to strengthen its Pacific presence. Boeing can also count on some orders from GE's own aircraft-leasing arm. Malaysia Airlines is also said to have been finalizing plans to go with the new 777 and possible interests in the larger 747.

Other possible buyers include Japan Airlines Co., Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., All Nippon Airways Co., Korean Air, Air China and China Southern Airlines.
 
Navion
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:52 am

GE Engines

Wed Mar 01, 2000 6:42 am

The GE90 (or should we call it the GE 115?) will be a new way of providing power for airlines according to what I've been reading. There apparently will be all sorts of support and guarantees, including pricing. The airlines listed in an AW&ST article said the pricing looked attractive enough to have them interested. GE isn't stupid, so I expect they will try to make it as easy as possible for non-customer airlines to do business with them.

P.S.- Malaysian specifically said their relationship with GE has been very good and they could work with them. They have used CF6-50's and CFM56's.
 
Guest

RE: Orderbook

Wed Mar 01, 2000 6:45 am

Cathay will almost certainly choose the 340NG over the 777X.
 
Guest

RE: Orderbook

Wed Mar 01, 2000 7:03 am

You are right KLM 777, Cathay is a loyal Rolls Royce customer, in the early 70s they selected the RR powered L-1011 over the GE powered DC-10.
 
Guest

RE: CX

Wed Mar 01, 2000 7:15 am

The choice of engines are not really the factor here. Perceived notions of superior economics and passenger comfort (also commonality) are. CX has many more 330/340 than they do 772/773.

 
Guest

RE: CX

Wed Mar 01, 2000 7:16 am

And unlike AF, CX actually like their 340's.
 
pandora
Posts: 393
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Cathay-my Predictions

Wed Mar 01, 2000 1:38 pm

Cathay is likely to add 777X to their fleet, because:

777X is in fact has lower costs than the A340 in terms of operational, and maintenance.

COST i have to point out is what CX wants to reduce the most.
 
Guest

RE: CX

Wed Mar 01, 2000 3:10 pm

Pandora, give it up. Much as I want CX to order the 777X, the 340NG is a near certainty for them.
 
v jet
Posts: 757
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RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Wed Mar 01, 2000 9:14 pm

PDX to SYD and MEL
Please tell me you are kidding!!!
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4040
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: CX

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:24 pm

KLM777, you´re right. Most likely CX will never order the 777-200/300X and if they do so only as a replacement fpr current 777s as Emirates will probably do. CX will for sure go for the A340-500/-600 for some reasons:
1. Engines: RRs and they already have a huge RR Trent 700/800 fleet and the Trent 500 fits in here.
2. Who says that the operation costs for the A340 are higher then those of the 777?
3. Airlines are still the ones who choose the airplanes and when CX says that the 340NG are well suited for them, they will buy it.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
ual747-600
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 1999 12:57 pm

RE: CX/Flying Tiger

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:43 pm

With regards to your post, I think it's obvious that the 777-200LR will have lower operating costs than the A340-500. The 200LR uses less gas and only has two engines. How can this not be less expensive to operate??? It will be interesting to see what CX finally orders.

 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4040
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RE: CX/Flying Tiger

Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:50 pm

Something Ißm not sure about. And I always consider the safety. I don´t like the idea of flying over the Pacific serveral hours long with only two engines. We had this discussion often enough but I think that the FAA will only grant Boeing the 207 minutes ETOPS so that they can sell this plane. I remeber a statement of a pilot (I don´t know from which airline) that he even does not like the idea of flying such a distance with 4 engines.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: CX/Flying Tiger

Thu Mar 02, 2000 12:30 am

There's an old joke about pilots that is relevant here.

Co-pilot: "#$% We've lost #52!"
PIC: "Which side?"

You see, pilots would really prefer to have 100 engines.   However, most pilots will also say they would rather fly on an ETOPS twin than a quad over a long expanse because of all the added safety that is put in to allow the flight to leave.

Check out this link for a pilot's perspective on why 2 is better than 4.

http://x42.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=450597440&CONTEXT=941925116.1237975135&hitnum=61

 
CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

The CX Order.

Thu Mar 02, 2000 1:14 am

The CX order is definately a hot debate!!! The A340NG does have the inside track currently due to the RR engines. The 777-200LR and 777-300ER provide more payload for range, efficiency along with passenger comfort. Boeing and GE are going to try very hard to win this order so it isn't over until its over. There was a very interesting quote in AW&ST this week by CX on the 777-200LR and 777-300ER. When I get home I will post it. Let us not forget that CX was a launch customer for the 777-300 albeit with RR engines.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Navion
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:52 am

CX Already A GE Customer

Thu Mar 02, 2000 1:24 am

Has everyone forgotten CX already has a relationship with GE? The general consensus is it is a good one. It's not as though GE is a totally new supplier to CX. There are quite a few CFM56-5's in their inventory and hanging on their A340's wings. And as many have pointed out in this post, they are happy with their A340's which obviously means they are pleased with their GE engines.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

For CX747

Thu Mar 02, 2000 2:31 am

Who says that the A 340s provide less passenger comfort and are more expensive to operate? A Lufthansa manager said that both aircraft have their pros and cons. But they are more or less equal in performance.

Thanks

Avion
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

Delta-Air France

Thu Mar 02, 2000 4:06 am

Hello,

Anyone heard of a common order of Delta Air Lines, Air France and Korean Air Lines ?

How many 777X would order Delta ?
Air France is going to replace its 747-200s with about 15 B777-300ER.

Here are some routes they should operate the 777-300ER on :

AF and KAL : CDG-SEL
AF :
CDG-LAX
CDG-NRT
CDG-HKG
CDG-SIN
CDG-BJS
CDG-EZE
CDG-JFK
CDG-SFO

Delta :
ATL-NRT
ATL-HKG
ATL-KIX
PDX-HKG
PDX-SIN

Any other idea?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
747-600X
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2000 3:11 am

LR/ER

Thu Mar 02, 2000 4:18 am

Why is the -200 the LR and the -300 the ER?
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4040
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: LR/ER

Thu Mar 02, 2000 4:24 am

A 777ER already exists. Many airlines have choosen it. Check Marc´s site for further details.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4947
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Extended Range?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 5:15 am

I thought ALL 777 type planes were able to handle extended range so why is there a need for an ER? Or was it that they are all ETOPS-ready and not needing certification????
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
sv11
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 6:26 am

RE: LR/ER

Thu Mar 02, 2000 5:17 am

Is Cathay flying any long flights currently with the 777? I read a long time ago that the 777s were flying regional routes. I think Cathay and other airlines in Asia are leery of putting a twin on an 18 hour flight over the Pacific.

sv11
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Delta-Air France

Thu Mar 02, 2000 5:42 am

Hmm. You know all of those routes for Air France are all perfectly within the ranges of the current 777. (Europe-West Coast is surprisingly short on a great circle route.) The longest of the bunch was CDG-EZE which fits quite nicely in the 772ER's range. Why would AF want 777x? It can't quite make CDG-SYD at 10500 miles.

Delta it seems could get more use from them. From ATL, they can reach ANY airport in the world with the exception of the west coast of Australia (Perth) and perhaps Jakarta. That's pretty amazing.

Air France can reach pretty much anywhere but Sydney and Melbourne from CDG with the 772x. But wait, they're after the 773x, right? That makes a little more sense (assuming they've already done the correct market analysis) that would give them reach to everywhere but Australia, and would be good use of the plane's range/capacity also. Korean could reach anywhere except the bottom half of South America from SEL.

Wow.
 
User avatar
sammyk
Posts: 1564
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 1999 11:31 am

Tedski & Bruce

Thu Mar 02, 2000 8:22 am

Tedski, I believe that Cathay Pacific was pretty much forced to buy the L-1011 by the British Government because it had Rolls Royce engines. Supposedly CX had made up their mind in favor of the DC-10 but were told they should buy the Tristar or lose their right to land at LHR or something to that extent.

Bruce, check out Boeings website, there are two versions of the -200, one being just a -200, and the other an -200ER (used to be IGW). CX by the way operates the -200, not the ER, and there is the -300 which CX launched.

Sammy
 
CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Airline Quotes On 777s.

Thu Mar 02, 2000 10:28 am

From a well respected aviation magazine   "Cathay Pacific's Commercial Director Anthony Tyler said recently that his carrier, a launch customer for the 777-300 will be receptive to the new aircraft if Boeing and General Electric make a business case for it. Show us how it is good for us." It seems to me that CX is receptive to the idea, but need to be shown the way.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Airline Quotes On 777s.

Thu Mar 02, 2000 10:34 am

CX will go with the 340NG.

No worries  

 
The777Man
Posts: 6117
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Thu Mar 02, 2000 7:01 pm

Cathay Pacific flies the 777-200 nonstop from HKG to DXB and to MEL, both are about 8-9 hours which is the max for a non-ER 777. I still believe that Cathay may order the 777-200LR or 777-300ER. You can never be too sure of anything these days. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: 777-200LR And 777-300ER LAUNCHED.

Fri Mar 03, 2000 1:21 am

I would really like to see CX order the 777-200LR and 777-300ER. The aircraft are high achievers. Don't get me wrong, the A340-500/600s are great aircraft but the 777-200LR and 777-300ER get the job done cheaper, faster and more profitable. The A340-500/600 though seems to be what their sites are set on though. With the launch of these aircraft on Feb 29th Boeing can now come to the party with a defined product. We must also remember that the CX order will include 777-300s and 747-400s and/or 747-400Fs. With these two Boeing airframes included in any deal, Boeing can offer lower prices and what not. The total order is the 777-200LR, 777-300ER vs the A340-500/600 along with 777-300s and 747-400s and/or -400Fs.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

AF 777-300ER

Fri Mar 03, 2000 4:54 am

Hello,

As you say D L X, what the 777-300ER will do the 777-200ER is already able to do it. That was even one of the main lines for the 777-300ER design.

They could even use a 777-300 to replace the 747-200 and 747-400 on US West Coast.

But with fleet commonalty, they were looking for an aircraft able to fly the 777-200ER routes with higher payloads and more passengers.

I think you're right when you say they are more interested by the 777-300ER than the 777-200LR.

However I think they'll order the 777-200LR later for some asian routes like TPE, or to fly to airports with a high altitude and that the 777-200ER isn't able to operate on in summer seasons (I think SCL is almost on the limit of the 777-200ER range, and they need payload capacity for additional freight on that route, that's why they don't operate it non-stop yet)

I'm not sure for the range of the 777-300ER on routes like ATL-HKG or ATL-SIN where they have to face strong headwinds.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Guest

Mas?

Fri Mar 03, 2000 7:15 am

As one of the first airlines to have expressed interest in the 777X, has Malaysia Airlines confirmed an order for it ? I hope they'll do that. The A340-500/600 is definitely a superb aircraft but it will be logical for MAS to order the 777X as they already operate the 777-2H6ER. I hope someone could provide me with some info about MAS intention. Thanks.
 
LH423
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Mas?

Fri Mar 03, 2000 7:45 am

This comes froma recent Flight International:

"Malaysia Airliens is in the final stages of negotiations with Airbus Industrie for up to 80 aircraft, including 18 A340-500/600 widebodies, and up to 62 examples of the A320 family..."

"MAS wants to acquire 10 A340-500s, and eight stretched -600s..."

"..., Boeing is pushing hard to persuade MAS to recommit to its yet-to-be-lauched 777X derivatives and to take Next Generation 737s..."

"The carrier has become increasingly frustrated, however, by Boeing's repeated delays in launching the 777X and by its decision to offer the aircraft exclusively with the General Electric GE90 powerplant..."

"If the deal is finalised, the Malaysian carrier plans to use the A340-500s and -600 to replace older Boeing 747s and open non-stop transpacific services to the USA. The A320s would replace its 40 737-400/500s."

So basically we can scratch MAS from any of those lists for 777X customers.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Mas?

Fri Mar 03, 2000 7:57 am

Ah good old FI. Not to start an Atlantic war but they are always shall we say Pro-Airbus and Anti-Boeing. Regardless of that, here is a quote from AW&ST which seems to be more "level headed".

"Malaysia Airlines Executive Vice President Dato Bashir scotched published reports that the carrier has selected the A340-500 instead of the new 777. He told Aviation Week that it is considering both products. He also discounted the idea that the GE90 engine might be a showstoppr for the 777X becaus his fleetis TRent-powered. 'We can work with it' he said of the General Electric engine, noting that MAS has a strong relationship with General Electric because of its 737 and DC-10 fleets."

While FI is a great magazine they tend to be biased. Nothing is said about RR being the only engine on the A340-500/600 when CFM is on all other A340s but the magazine always reports on the GE engine being the only one on board the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

Comparison

777-200LR: Seats: 301 Range: 16,160km.
A340-500: Seats 313 Range: 15,825km.

Now that is a bare comparison but if we are looking for an ultra-long haul bird, the 777-200LR has the range advantage.

"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower

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