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PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:45 am
by Byrdluvs747
Can anyone tell me what purpose the National Guard KC135's serve at PHX? I see one takeoff or land once in a while, but for the most part they're just sitting there. Is there any reasone why can't they use Williams/Gateway?

My thinking was that space could be used for a remote terminal for HP's RJ's and free up the N3/N4 gates for use by mainline aircraft.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:22 am
by AA717driver
It's hard to tell what a tanker unit is doing unless you keep track of the tail numbers. They might have 3-5 aircraft deployed at any one time. Unless you are watching 24/7, it's hard to make the claim that they just sit there.

The AZANG probably owns the property they are sitting on. In any event, most guard units are not located on nearby AFB's. They are a state asset that can be federalized when needed. While Williams was active, the last thing they needed was a bunch of students in high performance jets mixing in the pattern with -135's. Same for Luke AFB across town.

Now, it would be outrageously expensive to move the guard base to Williams or Luke.TC

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:36 am
by ATLhomeCMH
Aa717driver is precisely on target...actually, if you notice during your travels around the U.S., many major airports have ANG units w/ a/c parked on their own ramp. Two that come to mind are the Wisconsin ANG at MKE and the Missouri ANG at STL...last time I was in STL, they had F-15s stationed there.

Another reason for not having ANG units at Luke AFB could be that Luke already has enough air assets on base...this could include active duty, as well as Air Force Reserve assets.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:57 am
by KaiGywer
MSP has got plenty of C130's sitting across the runway on the MNANG area. And across the other runway is the AF Reserves.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:10 am
by smcmac32msn
Some of the ANGs that I can think of other than WiANG @ MKE with the -135s is MSN with the F16s & C26s. STL with the F15s... BOI has A10s... etc.

I know MSNs F16s protect the airspace over cities such as Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, etc.... These are a valuable asset and can cover lots of ground, very quickly in case of emergency.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:13 am
by jmc1975
As far as using that space for an RJ remote terminal, it would be an operational, financial and logistical nightmare for America West, Mesa, their passengers and employees. First off, they would need to signicantly extend their connection times due to a lengthy bus ride. The capital needed for such a project would be prohibitive and the logistics of getting the employees to and from would be more trouble than it's worth. A few years back, Southwest was interested in opening a remote terminal on the south side of the field, strictly for their operations. Even though that scenario makes more sense, they couldn't justify its cost.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:20 am
by desertjets
The AZANG tanker base has already been moved for the construction of the south runway to its current location by the south cargo ramp.

Somehow the thought of multiple buses driving all the way across the airport, over TWO active runways hardly seems like a good idea.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:23 am
by prosa
BDL is another civil airport that also has a large and active ANG detachment.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:25 am
by ATLhomeCMH
This may or may not be a similar example, but I know that STL's WN terminal (East Terminal, I think???) is out of the way of the main terminal and concourses...it's attached, but it's a pain in the a$$ to get to from the main terminal...a pretty long walk.

When I was in the Marine Corps, I went to MP school at Ft. Leonardwood, MO and used to fly WN home to CMH on a couple holidays and weekend passes...I always got dropped off at the main terminal and had to walk to WN's gates...although I think I could have been dropped off directly at the WN terminal...can someone refresh my memory on that?

Another example is CVG...Concourse C is the Comair Concourse, but it's not that far from Concourses A and B and from my own personal experience the shuttle bus works pretty well.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:39 am
by cannibalz3
Other large airports with Natl. Guard bases on them:
Charlotte (CLT) has a squadren of HC-130s
Raleigh (RDU) has a bunch of Army AH-64s and various others
Richmond (RIC) has F-16s
Chicago (ORD) used to have a bunch of KC-135s there, I dont know if they're still there though.
The list goes on and on...
I don't know about the logistics of moving the bases, but it does sometimes seem counter-intuitive to have a large military base on a very busy airport where space is at a premium, especially if there are other military bases or even less-busy civilian fields nearby. I wish somebody would explain with more specific cases.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:44 am
by Flaps
Adding to the list:

PIT has a PA-ANG C-130 unit with around 8 a/c and an AFR KC-135 unit with at least a dozen or more a/c.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:23 am
by as739x
Also.....
Portland has the ANG: F-15's
Fresno has the ANG: F-16's

ASSFO

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:33 am
by AA717driver
ATLhomeCMH--I used to make that trek in STL several times a month. Usually humping my suitcase and flight kit. I worked for TWA and commuted on SWA. Lot's of sweatty commutes!TC

P.S.--Thanks for your service!

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:25 am
by Byrdluvs747

I don't know about the logistics of moving the bases, but it does sometimes seem counter-intuitive to have a large military base on a very busy airport where space is at a premium, especially if there are other military bases or even less-busy civilian fields nearby.


Exactly. When you look at these pictures you can see that the base soaks up quit a bit of space. I'm still not sure what purpose is served by having the NG at PHX. It can't be security because you rarely see anthing other than the tanker aircraft there.


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Photo © Denis Roschlau
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Photo © Kai Hildebrand



Jmc1975,

Ok, I see your point regarding the logistal problems created by a remote Rj terminal where the current NG base is.

However, let's say the base was moved to Williams. By looking at the area of the base, HP could build a new a larger hangar. Then the current HP hangar in this pic could be demolished, and new concourse built in it's place. The only issue is that the taxiway east of N4 would have to be rerouted further east.

Just an idea.


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Photo © Timothy Keeney


RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:31 am
by CMK10
Living here in Tempe I can tell you those ANG planes are constantly on the move. As you cannot be anywhere on the ASU campus and not see the landings or takeoffs, I can tell you I see those C-135's at least once a day. Also I don't think HP is really in a position right now to play hardball with a wing of the US Air Force and then pay money for more gates.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:50 am
by Byrdluvs747
I work in Tempe(near 52nd & Broadway). My 5th floor office faces north so I can see all the takeoffs and landings.


Also I don't think HP is really in a position right now to play hardball with a wing of the US Air Force...


HP wouldn't be the one playing hardball. The airport authority would negociate with the federal govt for the property. I'm sure the airport wouldn't mind having that space for more income.


...and then pay money for more gates.


Well something like this obviously wouldn't come about in the immediate future. HP's plans for 8-10% growth will eventually necessitate more gates. By the time a project like this can be budgeted, HP's fleet and operations should be larger.

RE: PHX:HP RJ's And The National Guard

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:59 am
by asuflyer05
I think there are already plans in the works to deal with HP and WN's growth in PHX. Does anyone have any info the proposed T5? Because a more logistial solution would be to demolish T2 and maybe even T3 and build a mega terminal on the west side of the airport to accommodate HP. T4 would then house the other airlines at the airport in one facility.