You cant be serius by saying that swapping 737´s to 320´s would bankrupt a carrier???? As Udo wrote theres gonna be ahella lot of carriers...

Jeeeehhhh  

Micke/SE

NW never filed Ch. 11

Your logic is so flawed, its rediculous

Is this supposed to be an A vs B thread? UA is getting rid of the 735's because the leases are up and they are old. If the Airbus was older, they'd go first. End of story. Why keep planes you don't need?

Don't forget Braniff II, Pan Am, America West (filed Chapter 7 twice), TWA (had A318s on order). Definitely a kiss of death.  

This is hilarious, thanks for the laugh BNE. Quick question, are you closely related to Harry S.?

Actually, it depends on the lease structure. If they have a lease where they also write of a significant amount of depreciation (US Airways) then it hits the hourly operation costs like a sledge hammer when aircraft are devalued as they have been since 9/11.

You know, this must really be quite high at the top of the list of "dumbest threads ever" on a.net... somehow, I had thought that forum moderators would be wiser than to post rubbish like this.

But, just to play this ridiculous game a bit further: all of the three airlines were, at their respective troubling times, actually still operating B737s - so, why not start the, just as asinine, idea that the airlines filed for bankrupcy (or liquidation) because they didn't replace the B737s fast enough?

Who knows - maybe ANA will tumble into bankrupcy because they're actually replacing their A320s with B737s... or how about Varig? Are they in trouble (I know they're not "officially" bankrupt) because they rely so heavily on B737s? Or had they, secretly, decided on replacing them with A320s?

Maybe, BNE, you should take a few deep breaths, count to ten and then post a message like "Hey guys, I was only kidding with that"... don't think that too many people would believe you, but you'd at least show some effort with that.

Regards,
Frank

Alitalia is changing the MD80 with the A320 family, but they always have been in not good conditions  
And since they changed the A300 converting to Boeing things changed to worse  
Ciao

Well I think BNE makes a valid point. I have often wondered why airlines in trouble buy new aircraft, predominently airbus.

The reason I was given is that because of overproduction, the lease price of 320's is significantly less than 73NG, and that it is actually cheaper in the short term, and we are talking survival here, not good business, to lease new 320's than to undertake heavy maintenance on your older existing fleet.

This of course is what will turn LCC into legacy carriers eventually, along with staff seniority problems.

Ruscoe

a320s are built with a voodoo dead chicken hidden in the hold, causing any buyer to go bankrupt!

Reading the link to the Riddle kids report.

A320 CASM... .0250
734 CASM..... .0409

From this, it looks as if the acquisition of the A320s pushed the chapter 11 date back.

Jake

From a different point of view, you could also say the 737s caused so much debt to the airlines that even with the help of A320s it couldn't be reduced enough before going bankrupt...  

Airbus A320 -- the cursed aircraft.....ooooo....not airlines, voodolines.

Your logic is absurd.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc

What a way to waste your 1000th post. Whats next for 2000? I know, a mix of A330 and 7e7 dooooms an airline!  

Before this topic is locked please could BNE explain how a manufacturer can have a direct influence on the day to day economics of an aircraft operator?The operator knows how much they need to charge to make a profit, are aware of whether or not they are hitting that, and, what they need to do achieve that. If they haven't the money why are they buying new planes?

All you are highlighting are a (seemingly) bad series of purchase decisions; whatever aircraft had been purchased for these airlines at that moment in history would (probably) not have been a good choice (if they were free I guess they may have helped!).

Though many cash-strapped airlines favor Airbus (TWA, USAir, United, etc.), it doesn't lead to their downfall. They buy them because Airbus offers better deals and often cuts the price considerably. The airline is already going down, the A-320 doesn't really make a difference.

Well Duhh. The US airlines are being like the average "Soccer Mom". Now tell me what kind of minivans a soccer mom will buy. A Chrysler, A Free Star,or Grand Caravan. Many few buy a Quest, a Sienna or a MVP. They're just going with the 737 because.... You guessed it! Because its domestic and they're trying to be patriotic. I'm not exactly sure why they're change their Airbus for Boeing but what I think might be one of the reasons.

There's also the little matter that US did not replace its 737 aircraft with A32X aircraft. The A32X aircraft which US took delivery of replaced the DC-9-30, MD-80, and F-100 fleets, and only a very minor part of the 737-200 fleet. While US clearly intended to replace the 737-200 fleet with A32X aircraft, it did not have a chance to, when 9/11 occurred and MetroJet was shutdown. The few 737-300/400 retirements were a result of lease rejections during the first bankruptcy. Here's the press release from the Airbus narrowbody order. Note that it doesn't even mention the 737-300/400.


US Airways Orders Up To 400 Airbus Aircraft

ARLINGTON, VA., November 6, 1996 -- US Airways Group, Inc. announced today that it has placed orders for up to 400 Airbus aircraft in a major move to modernize and simplify its fleet, reduce operating costs and position itself for a changing competitive environment in the eastern United States.

The company noted that the purchase and delivery of the new aircraft are dependent upon achieving a competitive cost structure and board of directors approval.

Included in the announcement are firm orders for 120 Airbus A319s, A320s and A321s, 120 orders to be reconfirmed at a later date and 160 options with open-ended delivery dates. The company has flexibility in selecting among the 122-seat A319, the 144-seat A320 and the 168-seat A321, depending upon projected industry conditions at the time final delivery schedules are set.

The orders are designed to cover the airline's needs for narrow-body aircraft through the year 2009. In an effort to reduce aircraft and engine types, US Airways noted that the A320 series will replace at a minimum the DC-9-30s, B-737-200s, F-28s and MD-80s currently in US Airways's fleet. The four different aircraft with three different engine types will be replaced by a single aircraft family with one engine type.

"US Airways takes this important and significant step today in its effort to become both the airline of choice and an airline with a competitive cost structure," said Chairman and CEO Stephen M. Wolf. "The Airbus A319, A320 and A321, with their sizing flexibility, are extremely efficient and environmentally friendly aircraft that will serve our evolving markets for

"The market in the eastern U.S. is moving to a lower-fare environment that brings with it increased demand. These aircraft, and the flexibility we have in executing orders among aircraft types, will give us cost-efficient planes of the right size at the right time to compete aggressively in this changing market."

US Airways's labor leaders and employee representatives welcomed today's announcement.

Perry L. Hayes, president of the master executive council of the Association of Flight Attendants, said, "This aircraft order makes a dynamic statement about our future. Now we must be equally bold in becoming a competitive airline that is the carrier of choice."

Captain Robert P. Gaudioso, chairman of the master executive council of the Air Line Pilots Association, said, "These new aircraft will make our fleet one of the most modern in the world. We are committed to working together with our management to address a competitive strategy that works for US Airways and its employees."

William Freiberger, assistant general chairman, District 141 International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, said, "This decision by US Airways is a major step forward in an effort to become the carrier of choice as we move into the 21st century. The IAMAW is committed to continue to pursue our emerging collaborative High Performance Work Organization so we may build on our spirit of cooperation in an effort to effectively address our cost issues."

Don Wright, president of Transport Workers Union Local 545, said, "These new aircraft will propel us on our path toward becoming the carrier of choice. Combined with the vision of our new management, we can create the environment that will allow us to work toward long-term profitability for US Airways."

Michael J. Cichirillo, System Roundtable representative, said of today's announcement, "There have been many changes at US Airways during this year and this announcement sends a clear message that we are a new airline. Every employee can and should identify with that and work toward making us more cost-competitive."

US Airways said it now would enter into discussions with engine manufacturers for the engines to power the new aircraft and also would begin examining alternatives for wide-body aircraft to support its growing international operations.

Jean Pierson, managing director and chief executive officer of Airbus Industrie, said, "In addition to the operational flexibility provided US Airways as a result of the commonality of the Airbus design, our production flexibility enables us to provide the aircraft on a schedule more suitable to the airline."

The Airbus A319 is a twin-engine 122-seat aircraft with a range of 3,000 nautical miles, the A320 a twin-engine 144-seat aircraft with a range of 2,900 nautical miles and the A321 a twin-engine 168-seat aircraft with a range of 2,700 nautical miles.

US Airways will configure its new aircraft with 12 seats in first class for the A319 and A320 and 24 for the A321, with the balance in coach. A feature of the Airbus 320 series is a common cockpit, vastly simplifying maintenance and training and scheduling of flight crews, major factors in airline costs.

US Airways operates almost 5,000 jet and US Airways Express flights daily to more than 200 destinations worldwide including 39 states in the U.S., Puerto Rico, Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, Bermuda, U.S. Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Jamaica and St. Maarten. European destinations include Frankfurt, Madrid, Munich, Paris and Rome.

More than 1,100 of the A320 family have been ordered by 54 customers worldwide and more than 600 already are in operation. Airbus Industrie, based in Toulouse, France, also produces the A300, A310, A330 and A340, giving it a range of aircraft from the 124-seat A319 to the 440-seat A340.

Regardless of aircraft type I believe its wholly on the part of the people running the company ....................don't you think?

Of course 9/11, high fuel prices and the onslaught of LLC's has something to do with it also.

Mike

I do not understand why Airline Companies mix their fleet with Airbus / Boeing planes. That means hire new employees to maintain the different planes, different part manufactures etc... I think you get the point. Can anyone say SOUTHWEST! 737 fleet completely Hello. Also, I believe NW is quietly changing over to Airbus (IE the A330 for most long hauls). Although, NW recently purchased or leased some 757-3 yes?

Regards;
Matthew.

"Alitalia is changing the MD80 with the A320 family, but they always have been in not good conditions
And since they changed the A300 converting to Boeing things changed to worse"


Why do you think things changed to worse? Don't see any reason for that!!!

NW has never declared bankruptcy? Their success must be linked to their DC-9s, which is why they hold onto them so dearly. If they get rid of the DC-9s, NW will liquidate and CO will be free!

Damn. People are hateful.

These are interesting facts that have been exhibited here. And while we all know that switching from a 37 to a 320 is not the reason for these airlines' bankruptcy, it's also worth noting that BNE never asserted this. In fact, he never asserted anything aside from fact. All he did was state that many fledgling airlines seem to purchase new aircraft, and he has noted good examples of this. But that's all he did was provide examples. Nowhere in the post does it say that swapping to 320s causes bankruptcy. Perhaps next time you could do this board a service by actually reading the post instead of being so anxious to assert your own superiority by attacking someone for making a legitimate connection. It never ceases to amaze me the people on here that get their rocks off by flailing someone for posting their thoughts.

FedExDC-10

I had thought the same thing, but never took myself seriously, as it really sounds biased and without logic !!! But still; the facts listed by BNE cannot be confuted if not in minor details ! And what about Swissair: it too switched from MD-80's to A-32X and ...!?!

CO will be free

Co is already free.

For starters, the A320 data he provided is wrong. Their Direct CASM is $.045.

That maybe the case. But it surely made their CEO's lots of dough.

"Four and half years and finally to 1000 posts."

Congratulations Scotty'sAir, ooops, I mean BNE.  

dumbest threads ever
Is that so, well there are other equally dubious threads posted on this board that I thought I would join in, with an equally semi serious debate.
It was kind of a self gloss thread, but a serious topic with a mention of NWA DC9s thrown in for fun.  

The underlining question came to me in a book I read about Ansett, "Ansett. The Story of the Rise and Fall of Ansett 1936-2002." Towards the back it was discussing the different fleets that were operated by Ansett. In fleet ownership, less is more, in that the less number of different types of fleets you are own the less numbers of spares and systems you need to keep updated. Can anyone say SOUTHWEST! over thirty years of profitability, with only one single aircraft family the Boeing 737. After having a look through the book "The Big Six US Airlines" I noticed that 2 of the 6 were in bankruptcy, and they both had large numbers of airbus aircraft. That is where the data for the DEC 99 came from.

Yes it may be coincidence.

A number of factors have also not helped US Airways and United, both are getting squeezed by low Cost Carriers. The seat mile costs of US Airways simply cannot compete with the likes of Southwest and Airtran. Sure they may have saved money by operating A320s, but how much more complicated have they made their business by operating another aircraft type.

Just want to reply on a couple of comments made during the thread.

When this topic is locked please could BNE explain how a manufacturer can have a direct influence on the day to day economics of an aircraft operator?The operator knows how much they need to charge to make a profit, are aware of whether or not they are hitting that, and, what they need to do achieve that. If they haven't the money why are they buying new planes.

Yes you would hope that a manufacture can assist in one of its customers making money from its products.

From one of the links,
http://www.eads.net/frame/lang/en/1024/xml/content/OF00000000400004/1/86/30941861.html
Following US Airways’ successful emergence from bankruptcy protection (March 31, 2003) and months of coordination between customer and manufacturer, Airbus has worked with the airline to complete a restructuring plan to assist the Arlington, Virginia carrier in best accommodating the current industry environment. The resulting agreement includes replacing a prior order with a new order for 10 Airbus A330-200 aircraft. The airline currently flies a fleet of nine A330-300s – this new contract will more than double the size of the airline’s Airbus widebody fleet. This new firm order replaces previous contracts for one A330-300, three A319s and 15 A320s. US Airways also has an additional 13 A321s and six A320s on firm order. Deliveries of the now 29 Airbus aircraft on backlog (see specifics below) will begin in 2007 and run through 2009.
“As we anticipated, US Airways emerged from bankruptcy stronger than ever and we are pleased to be a partner in their evolution, Forgeard, Airbus President and Chief Executive Officer. The airline is rightfully very focused on maximizing its cost-effectiveness and this is reinforced by their decision to build their widebody fleet with the A330 Family. Well that didn't help did it, look where they are now.

NW has never declared bankruptcy? Their success must be linked to their DC-9s, which is why they hold onto them so dearly. If they get rid of the DC-9s,
According to the Book "The Big Six US Airlines" page 60 states A320s were delivered in 1989. However, a financial crisis approached and the airline filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection later that year So is the books information incorrect, I couldn't find an online reference that mentioned it.

Some absolute hilarious quotes kept me going all day, didn't have the time to post a response at work.
Congratulations Scotty'sAir, ooops, I mean BNE 1000 posts in 4/12 years not 4 and a half weeks.
What a way to waste your 1000th post. Whets next for 2000? I know, a mix of A330 and 7e7 dooms an airline, yes maybe in another 4 and 1/2 years.  

But the best comment is by this user.

A320s are built with a voodoo dead chicken hidden in the hold, causing any buyer to go bankrupt.