starrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1022
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Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:40 am

Soon the 777LR will be completed and the 777 line will be done for now.

The 7e7 or 787 will begin construction in the next year with the -3 and -8 variants entering into service in 2008. The -9 will follow two years later.

Plus Boeing is going to be working on the 747advanced with expected entry into service in 2010

And then they will do the 737 over with 7e7 technology with entry into service sometime after the 747 adv.

So after that project:

717 (presuming it survives)
737 Advanced or 797?
747 advanced
777 200ER, 200LR, 300, 300ER
787 -3, -8, -9

Is Boeing making the same mistake Airbus is making by developing a low unit volume heavy instead of the 737 replacement which would lock up the narrowbody market? Or can Boeing simultaneously develop both the 737adv and the 747adv at the same time?
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:48 am

Don't forget the 767 tanker program & the 737 for the US Navy
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starrion
Topic Author
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:58 am

Civil forum.

Besides having the 737 maritime aircraft and the 767 tanker product lines open doesn't prelude Boeing from doing the other projects....

I was under the impression that most of the Development work for the tanker is already done.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
boeingbus
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:05 am

When is Boeing going to realize eventually that they can not survive just matching performance they need to beat Airbus... Boeing has lost several high profile orders to the A320... and they can't afford any more.

The 737 needs to be all new.

There has been a few articles/chatter out there that Boeing is actively looking into this... Hopefully, its going to be sooner rather than later. Obviously, they are going to complete the design work on the 747ADV before they are dedicated on the 737.

But with the 7E7, they have developed a core of risk sharing partners so I woudl imagine that develoment costs won't be as much and technologies will be reused.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:14 am

They need a new aircraft in the 100 - 190 seat narrow body category based on the 7E7 with a larger diameter fuselage and the 7E7 interior. That would be an amazing aircraft.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
starrion
Topic Author
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:27 am

But my real question is why wait?

Finish the 7e7, once building is underway then presumably design work is completed.

I know it's armchair quarterbacking, but for the past five years the 737 has been the only thing holding BCA together. If they milk it for another 5-8 years they'll lose more and more bids to the A32x series. Besides the fact the 737 is more expensive and the line is too backed up. Several of the bids they lost were because the 320 series is available sooner than the 737's.

There may be a hundred or so orders available for a 747 advanced but are there enough to justify missing out on the many hundreds or thousands they could win with a far more efficent narrowbody?
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:01 am

Boeing has already stated that the 737 replacement will be in the 2012 timeframe.

Likely defined and offered by 2008.

Boeings big issue is it's inability to produce and aircraft as cheaply as Airbus....not any technical advantages (that don't appear to lower the operating cost). Raising production would moderately reduce unit cost and increase availability---but the orders have to materialize first....

And I'll agree..at the moment, Boeing is a two airplane manufacturer: 737 and 777.
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:19 am

Boeings big issue is it's inability to produce and aircraft as cheaply as Airbus

If Boeing got the same subsidies as Airbus then they certainly could produce them just as cheap as Airbus.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
starrion
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:32 am

I'd have to disagree.

Airbus isn't receiving direct operational subsidies, just freebie loans for aircraft research. If Airbus decides that they made a profit on an aircraft line they they pay the loan back. If not then not.

While thiis arrangement would help Boeing it's not going to reduce the operational cost of building aircraft. EADS newer aircraft production plants are where their strength lies. Something that Boeing is now doing with the 7e7 and probably future aircraft lines.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:47 am

Boeing only recently adopted 'moving' production lines for the narrowbodies (a good lesson from MacDac). Airbus has used once since it's inception. It's far more efficient, allowing 'just-in-time' supplying and installation which greatly reduces carrying costs (which saves hundreds of million$ on an annual basis).

The sad truth (for Boeing) is that is cost less to build a 319 than a 73G---hence, they will likely be cheaper to sell.
 
anthsaun
Posts: 512
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:52 am

A couple of weeks ago Boeing stated that they were interested on the "under 100 pax" market. So a new aircraft series might rise very soon. It might be a Boeing original, or even a take over.
Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:11 am

A replacement aircraft for 737-300, B717 size aircraft seems logical. 737-600 and A318 are just 10.000 kg too heavy. The RRJ might not become a blockbuster in the west.

IMO Boeing is to "heavy" for the fast, aggresive regional market <100 seats.

Setting up a 100-140 seat production line in some low cost enviroment (read China) might be an option.

The current generation of powerplants used for bigger regional aircraft (the CF34) might be ready for replacement by a higher bypass powerplant (fuel, noise). New technology options can be developed, certainly if Mach 0.7-0.8 is fast enough.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kim777fan
Posts: 497
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RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:42 am

"Airbus isn't receiving direct operational subsidies, just freebie loans for aircraft research. "

I'm scratching my head here on that one. That sounds effectively like a subsidy to me just dressed up a little more fancy.

"If Airbus decides that they made a profit on an aircraft line they they pay the loan back. If not then not."

So let me get this straight.. Airbus gets to decide whether they pay the "loan" back or not. That most definitely sounds like a dressed-up subsidy to me.

 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:11 am

So let me get this straight.. Airbus gets to decide whether they pay the "loan" back or not. That most definitely sounds like a dressed-up subsidy to me.

Don't believe all the propaganda from either side, and definitely nothing you hear here from those who are just either speculating idly or repeating politicianspeak. The allegation that Airbus can decide when or if to pay the loans back is false.

The Airbus launch aid is repayable with interest, and Airbus has met all its repayment covenants so far. There is a fairly evenhanded article about it here

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/188750_air01.html

So far Government aid for Airbus has proven to be profitable for the agencies involved. It is also worth noting that EU bank base rates are considerably higher than the US prime rate and have been so for a long time.

As usual there are two sides to every story, and neither side can say that they have not been "economical with the truth".
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
pilottim747
Posts: 1577
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:34 pm

RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:56 am

Here's an article about the B747 Advanced:

Advanced 747 on way from Boeing -- The Australian (October 01, 2004)

pilottim747
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DfwRevolution
Posts: 9282
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Boeing's Future Aircraft

Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:03 pm

IMO Boeing is to "heavy" for the fast, aggresive regional market <100 seats. Setting up a 100-140 seat production line in some low cost enviroment (read China) might be an option.

Or Russia perhaps? I've got a feeling the RRJ is going to play a part of the 737NG's replacement. Boeing is assiting in the design, certification, and support of the RRJ.... breathing some credibility into an aircraft the western world would otherwise ignore....

If Boeing got the same subsidies as Airbus then they certainly could produce them just as cheap as Airbus.

Airbus uses more modern consturction techniques. They can make more exact structures that waste less material, assemble faster, and are more efficent. This means Airbus aircraft cost less to build. Boeing will likely match or exceed Airbus once the 7E7 assebly comes online....

When is Boeing going to realize eventually that they can not survive just matching performance they need to beat Airbus... Boeing has lost several high profile orders to the A320... and they can't afford any more.

The 737NG and A320 are virtual matches in all fields, and Boeing has been beyond sucessful marketing it... they'res over 2200+ on order. It isn't the end of the world when Boeing doesn't make every single sale, it's reality, the 737NG broke even a loong time ago.

As for "afford any more" losses, one of the reasons Boeing has been unable to match Airbus offers is because the 737NG line is sold out through 2005. Airlines don't like to wait, and Airbus more efficent manufacturing allows them to be more flexible in deliveries.
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