717fan
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A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:44 pm

Does anyone have news about:

-the future of Olympics 717, will they stay for longer?
-the future of Jetstar's 717?
-does Midwest need more 717's when all 25 are delivered?

BTW, is the proposed 717-300X still a possibilty for Boeing? (I know that the whole 717 program is in doubt....)

Thanks
 
AA737-823
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:36 am

I don't KNOW this, it's just an impression I have... but I think that Midwest is wishing that their order had been for 15 instead of 25... Not literally, but they've got a LOT of capacity, and their loads haven't been that great... and their profit numbers only worse. I hope they make it- I flew on them this summer, and WHOA- great aircraft AND crews.
 
srbmod
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:33 am

I wouldn't be surprised if the leased 717s of Jetstar and Olympic end up in AirTran's fleet when the leases are up. Midwest's 717 decision came prior to 9/11, as they placed the order in April of 2001; they didn't finalize the order until a year after they placed the order. So Midwest, like many other airlines, had their plans for the future changed as a result of 9/11. Has Midwest considered putting some of their 717s into Saver Service operations?
 
N1120A
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:44 am

FL is also getting some more new build 717s, they bought them as part of the 737 deal. I would guess that Midwest speeds the retirements of some DC-9s in order to reduce capacity, along with doing more saver service. Just conjecture. Then again, they might want to send some to FL. I actually think that the 717 has a place at Boeing. I think they keep it because they know the 736 is too heavy (not as bad as the A318, but still) and there are airlines that will want the reliability of a proven platform. Also, I think they see the emergence of the new 100 seat Embraers and Bombardiers and see that as comming close to the 717 and want to be able to have a finished product when they face a challenge
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Greg
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:25 am

I think the -300 has died an unofficial death....but likely would be on offer for any carrier that would order a substantial number of them.

Quite frankly, not only have the airlines lost interest in the 717...it appears that Boeing has as well. Short of another 200 airfames being sold, they will not turn a profit on the programme.

Not a very noble ending to the DC-9 legacy.

Who knows...possibly they can turn it around.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:33 am

I have only heard unofficially that some of the airports JETSTAR wishes to fly to can't take 320's and a few may be kept for this reason.

Ruscoe
 
FL1TPA
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:57 am

Yes, we here at AirTran do like the 717. We tend to assimilate any 717 that doesn't have an operator. I don't think there are any 717's languishing in the desert - probably because of AirTran's aggressive fleet expansion. We first took 717's that originally were produced for Vuelamex because they couldn't get their operating certificate from the Mexican government. Then came the American / TWA merger (buyout) and American dumped the 717's. FL swept in and absorbed them. We also have a few birds from Hawaiian floating around the system. So I venture to say that if ANY operator in the world wants to rid themselves of the 717, FL would probably seriously consider taking them.

FL1TPA
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue."
 
Gemuser
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:28 pm

A rumor currently going around says that the lease of the 6 or 8 (I forget) B717's leased via Pembroke will be transferred from Jetstar (nee Impulse) to QF, then "dry" sub leased to National Jet Systems (NJS), who will then "wet" lease them to QF to replace, at least some, of the Bae 146's they currently wet lease to QF.

Sounds logical to me, but who knows? Does this conterdict or complement Ruscoe's post (5)?? I have no idea. Like I said its a rumor.


Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
DeltaWings
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:17 pm

the 717-300 may be quite a good Idea, then it would be an alternative to the 737-600. It would also be a good DC-9-40 replacement...
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
FL1TPA
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:02 am

Deltawings:

As much as I would love to see a 717-300; unfortunately Boeing considers it too close of a competitor to the 737 series - not an alternative. I seriously doubt any shortening or lengthening of the airframe will ever happen. Doomed for all eternity to be the only (step) child of Boeing without any variants... the 717.

Oh well...

FL1TPA
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue."
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:41 am

With regret, I can honestly say that unless the 717 program gets a major order soon, it is doomed. When Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas in 1996, Boeing signed an agreement with McD-D employees to keep the 717 (the MD-95 then) line open for 10 years. While I'm a big supporter of LGB workers & the 717/C-17 assembly lines, I have to face the writing on the wall now. So we have a little more than 2 yrs before the axe falls, unless the airline industry sees a miracle recovery between now & the end of 2006. On a plus side, I believe there will be at least 200 717s in existence if/when the line shuts down. I can only hold on to my belief that the 717 is a sleeper hit for awhile longer. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
N1120A
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:31 am

Hey, all the 717 operators are very happy with them. Now, this is a disclaimer, as I am not doing another NW DC-9 thing, but when they do replace those (perhaps at 40) there really would be nothing better than the 717
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
RCS763AV
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:12 am

I think that the 717-300 would have quite a decent amount of customers.

- Avianca (17 orders)
- AeroRepublica (10 orders)
- AirTran (dunno)
- American (maybe, if they replaced their whole bunch of MD80s, 360 orders)

IMHO, the 717 line has many years to come.
 
DeltaWings
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:32 pm

- American (maybe, if they replaced their whole bunch of MD80s, 360 orders)

------------------------------

The 717-300 would neve be as big as the MD-80, A320, 738. I think it would be more of a A318, (A319), 737-600 sized aircraft
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
jeb94
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:07 pm

Last I heard, Midwest loves the 717s but they are just now starting to truly be profitable for them. Acquisition costs, training of crews and maintenance personnel, turnover and labor turmoil with the mechanics and labor in general, and the usual teething troubles that can be expected with any new build aircraft have all hurt them. 717 operations is a new game for them and initially they under utilized the 717 by scheduling it for flight hours like they did the DC-9. They very well might put a couple 717s in saver mode but not likely. Give Midwest another 12 to 18 months and they'll probably shift back into careful expansion mode again, though it may be up to another year after that before they shift back into aircraft acquisition mode again.
 
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eksath
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:02 pm

...Acquisition costs, training of crews and maintenance personnel, turnover and labor turmoil with the mechanics and labor in general, and the usual teething troubles that can be expected with any new build aircraft have all hurt them

so i guess the below picture goes well with the above statement.. Wink/being sarcastic


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Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu




World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
jettblasterp
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:57 am

Curiosity is the reason for so many people staring into the engine. In the 1.5 years this plane had been flying to BOS for YX, this is the only time that cowling has ever been open. The 717 has been extremly reliable and YX remains committed to it.

N1120a:

The last YX DC9 flew about 6 months ago.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:40 am

I don't KNOW this, it's just an impression I have... but I think that Midwest is wishing that their order had been for 15 instead of 25... Not literally, but they've got a LOT of capacity, and their loads haven't been that great... and their profit numbers only worse. I hope they make it- I flew on them this summer, and WHOA- great aircraft AND crews.

Laughable. The 717's are the aircraft actually making money for Midwest. The thing is a cash cow for them.
 
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eksath
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:28 am

Curiosity is the reason for so many people staring into the engine. In the 1.5 years this plane had been flying to BOS for YX, this is the only time that cowling has ever been open. The 717 has been extremly reliable and YX remains committed to it.


I have no doubt that the 717 is a good aircraft but this particular aircraft is NOT 1.5 years old. Its certificate Issue Date 09/29/2004 which is 2 days after this picture was taken!

According to the FAA:
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=919me

so it may be curiosity after all...a brand new shiny aircraft engine.

here is another picture of the plane at Long Beach during its construction.


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Photo © Jerry Search






World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
RCS763AV
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:40 am

DeltaWings: If built, the 713 would have about the same pax capacity as the S80.
 
717fan
Topic Author
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:09 pm

Slightly off topic, but reportedly (FlightInternational) Boeing is to double the 717 production rate to 2 aircraft per month in 2005...
 
TheBigOne
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:48 pm

In agreement with 717fan, I too read in this weeks Flight International that Boeing is asking suppliers to prepare for a doubling of production rates. I wonder if Boeing knows something regarding an order that the rest of us dont?
Reach for the stars - they are closer than you think!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:10 pm

I wonder if Boeing knows something regarding an order that the rest of us dont?

Maybe Boeing's expecting an additional order from FL should you know who (US) goes under.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
srbmod
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:57 am

Actually, the 717-300 if built, would have the same pax capacity as the DC-9-50 series, around 140 pax.
 
jettblasterp
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:15 pm

I have no doubt that the 717 is a good aircraft but this particular aircraft is NOT 1.5 years old. Its certificate Issue Date 09/29/2004 which is 2 days after this picture was taken!

I see you have done your research. Yes this is the newest in the YX fleet, but so what? Problems can happen to new planes too. I'll admit the problem was rather odd for a new plane. I know for a fact this plane had been flying for more than 2 days prior to this flight (although not many). When I say curiosity, I mean it. I have been working these planes every single day for that long and still have not seen the engine!!



 
D950
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:43 am

I believe the 717-300 would be a good idea, however I believe it would be closer to the MD90, which is having a rebirth with airlines such as HELLO now up to four aircraft, and raving about performance!! as for the 717-200 Jetstar customers love them, and GermanWings is about to "test" a couple to see if they may want them long term. LH is also watching this test with the possibility of a long term order for them. If Boeing had ANY brains they would not treat this aircraft like an illegitimate son, and try to sell them a tad more aggressively, but alas Boeing and smart decisions are an oxymoron!!
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
DeltaWings
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:09 am

So if the 717-300 would be like an MD90, wich is the same size as the 737-800, would it be better then the current 738?

DeltaWings
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
AA737-823
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:43 am

Is no one here reading what is said?
The 717-300 would be like the DC-9-50... NOT an MD-80, nor a -90, but a -50.
That puts it out of leauge with the 320 and 738.
Maybe more in line with the 319 and 73G. Just shorter range by design.

Also, Boeing 7E7, how do YOU know that the 717 is making money for them? Considering that financials ahve been solid losses since long before the 717s came online... I don't know how you can even make that statement. The airline is losing money- so you're claiming their a profitable loss-maker?

Right.

Capacity exceeds demand. No one predicted it, but it's a fact that ALL the airlines are facing right now- just ask United, who is going to park 65 planes.

R
 
D950
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:08 am

Is no one here reading what is said?
The 717-300 would be like the DC-9-50... NOT an MD-80, nor a -90, but a -50.
That puts it out of leauge with the 320 and 738.
Maybe more in line with the 319 and 73G. Just shorter range by design.

The boeing website which advertized the 717-300 (which has since been removed) stated it would be an extended range/capacity 717 with up to 180 seats in an all coach config, with an RR/IAE engine option. This is a moot point probably since Boeing removed the header sometime in the spring. We are reading what is said but this is a forum for discussion and thought. The truth is in effect, Boeing bought MDD to extinguish it not enhance it.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
717fan
Topic Author
Posts: 1980
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:01 pm

Again off topic: "Justplanes" reports that Turkmenistan Airlines has ordered 2 more 717-200...
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 492
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RE: A Couple Of 717 Operator Questions

Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 pm

Okay. I have a question. All these airlines who have he MD80 series won't give them up, even though some are outdated and just old. This obviously shows that they like the MD80 series.

Sooner or later they will have to retire the MD80 fleet. So why would they NOT order 717's? I just dont understand, aren't they basically the same aircraft, does the 717 not perform as well? I'm sure it does, its more effecient, quiet, and comfortable.

Sooooo--should they maybe put a hold on the program until airlines start retiring there MD80 fleets?

Someone, correct me if I am wrong.

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