cumulonimbus
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Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:38 am


With many large freight carriers scrambling to pick up second hand MD-11's and one carrier Publicly saying that they would buy more if they were to be produced once more (LH Cargo) would it be a good buisness case for Boeing to place the MD-11 Back in production with maybe some improvements.

Tell me what you think.

Mike
 
airtran737
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:41 am

I think that Boeing already destroyed the jigs for the MD-11 so putting it back into production would be hard. I would love to see more new three holers rolling off the LGB line though.
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gigneil
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:44 am

It would be completely impossible, not just hard. Not only does Boeing no longer have the tools, but the supporting vendors don't either. It would take years to ramp it back up, and many of the parts probably just can't be made again.

It would be significantly easier and cheaper to offer a 777 based freighter product.

N
 
anxebla
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:50 am

The B-777F will be avalaible in 2007/8 according to Avion Revue magazine.
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Greg
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:29 am

It was one of MacDac's biggest financial blunders (which ultimately help lead to it's sale). You'd sooner see Boeing sell their shares to Airbus, than bring back any new DC-10/MD-11 models or derivatives.

I believe the development writeoff from the program was in the $1.0+B range according to Boeing's financials...plus several hundred million more in production writeoffs.....

The programme was doomed financially from it's inception.



 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:35 am

No.

1. It would cost a huge amount of money that may not be recouped from sales.

2. It would compete with current products, specifically 777 and 747.
 
767-332ER
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:46 am


Anexbla,

which issue of avion revue did you read that in? Interesting subject and I'm surprised as to why Boeing hasn't announced any firm launch of the freighter variant.
Regards
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TW741
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:53 am

stupid question from my side - wouldn't it be possible to convert DC-10's to an "almost MD11" stage in respect of freighter utilization? Or was the MD11 a completely new aircraft over the DC10?
Honestly the Dc10's and MD11's where an aircraft type I never paid too much attention - I was always "Pro L1011" so my knowledge of the D10/M11 is only vague....
I am just thinking of the DC10's stored in the desert and from my point of view I could see those as freighters....
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Womack17
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:58 am

Personally, I would love to see the M-11 make a comeback. The aircraft was never marketed correctly by McDonnell-Douglas and the Swiss Air accident virtually guaranteed that the aircraft would flounder. It is a real shame, as it was an awesome aircraft, from the pax point of view at least. From the information I have read the flight crews also loved flying the aircraft. In fact, the only negative information I have read about the aircraft was that the pilot's seats were not very comfortable on 8+ hour flight.
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gigneil
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:59 am

I think the MD-10 is as close to the MD-11 as is possible for a DC-10.

The MD-11 was a very different airframe in many regards.

N
 
JeffB
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:03 am

Follow up to the "stupid question"  Wink/being sarcastic ...

What makes the MD11 such a great freighter? Is it a combination of things(power/size)? Or is it economics(fuel burned / 100 lbs of freight?). What is it that is making FedEx, LH Cargo, etc. want this bird so much?????

Lastly, How will the A340F(there is one in the works, no?) or the future 777F stack up to the current MD11?


 
MEA-707
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:07 am

One of the reasons the MD-11 is so popular as a freighter is the relatively low 2nd hand value it has, mainly because most passenger operators like American, China Airlines, Swiss, Delta and JAL were keen on dumping them early. Without that UPS and FedEx wouldn't pick up any 2nd hand examples. New MD-11s would cost too much. The MD-11 market was at a trickle for years, if LH really wanted more MD-11s they were welcome to order more before 2000 but they didn't.
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gigneil
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:08 am

The aircraft was never marketed correctly by McDonnell-Douglas and the Swiss Air accident virtually guaranteed that the aircraft would flounder.

That's untrue. The MD-11 originally had almost 600 orders (more than all the DC-10s ever produced). Airlines cancelled their orders when the plane never lived up to expectations.

The plane was a disaster for everyone involved except the cargo carriers.

What makes the MD11 such a great freighter?

Economics are not always quite as important for cargo haulers, neither is reliability. On the plus side, the plane has a voluminous main deck and a huge uplift capability and that's key.

When filled with the relatively lightweight FedEx packages, it can easily make KIX-MEM nonstop.

N
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:51 am

Why is it taking so long to release a freight version of the 777? Or would they rather sell 744F's instead to keep that line open?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:09 am

Why is it taking so long to release a freight version of the 777?

Well, for one thing, it'd be a derivative of the 772LR engine/frame combo... which itself has yet to be certified for even pax ops.
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spacecadet
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:08 am

stupid question from my side - wouldn't it be possible to convert DC-10's to an "almost MD11" stage in respect of freighter utilization? Or was the MD11 a completely new aircraft over the DC10?

Different aircraft, although as someone else pointed out, FedEx does have some MD-10's which are basically what you're talking about (a DC-10 with an MD-11 flight deck). FedEx is the only airline ever to fly the MD-10.

The MD-11 was lengthened, had different landing gear, different wings, and different horizontal and vertical stabilizers from the DC-10, at the very least. Not to mention a totally different cockpit and a redesigned control system (the MD-11 uses a digital fly-by-wire system). So I don't think you could really convert a DC-10 into an "almost MD-11", although you can at least give it an MD-11 cockpit, which is what the MD-10 is. This allows pilots to be type-rated on both models without re-training, but the performance of the airplane is still that of a DC-10.

I think the reasons the MD-11 is popular with cargo operators are that they're cheap to buy used, have good cargo capacity and have decent range vs. capacity. That's about all cargo operators care about. Their fuel economy doesn't magically improve when they go to cargo operators, though; it's just that it's not quite as important to them as it is to passenger operators. I've even heard apocryphal stories (don't know if they're true or not) of it being standard procedure to reduce engine #2 in DC-10's/MD-11's to flight idle at cruising altitude in order to save a little bit of fuel on long cargo flights. Obviously you wouldn't do this on a passenger flight.
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elwood64151
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:22 am

and many of the parts probably just can't be made again.

I don't think so... Get some good machinists and dye makers and I bet you could do it...



Realistically, though, it would cost billions to put the aircraft back into production. LH would have to be willing to pay a serious premium for those birds...
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Horus
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:40 am

Can someone tell me what happened to all of the ex- LX MD-11s. I was watching a clip of the craft that made a space flight a few days ago, and as it landed back in the Mohave Desert(?), there were a couple of LX MD-11s in the background.

Horus



[Edited 2004-10-07 00:00:14]
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ltbewr
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:52 am

If an airline needs new large multi-engine freighters they can buy (like JAL is) 747's with relatively short delivery times. The MD-11 is dead. Gone. Has ceased to be. No longer among the living. Taking a dirt nap.... you get my drift. Boeing should consider doing MD-11 freighter conversions, possibly at ex-MD facilities.
 
gigneil
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:53 am

the MD-11 uses a digital fly-by-wire system

Generally good post, but no the MD-11 is not fly-by-wire.

N
 
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alberchico
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:00 am

The new Airbus A340-500-600'S are up to 10% more fuel efficent than the MD-11.And very few planes in history have been cancelled only to be put back in production again.Don't get me wrong I would like nothing better than to see MD-11's in widespread service again ,but that is the reality. Crying
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spacecadet
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production

Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:22 am

Generally good post, but no the MD-11 is not fly-by-wire.

You know I wondered about this too. But see here: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Organizations/Technology/Facts/TF-2001-02-DFRC.html

I wasn't sure if the MD-11 was FBW so I just did a Google search on "md-11 fly by wire" and this was the first reputable site that came up. Note this is a NASA web site titled "technology facts", so I figured it was trustworthy.

"Many new-generation transport aircraft have been developed with DFBW flight control systems. Among them are the Boeing MD-11 and 777 jetliners, the Boeing C-17 military transport, and the A-300 series of passenger and cargo carriers built by Airbus Industries in Europe."
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:04 pm

Spacecadet,

The MD-11 uses a very conventional fly by cable system, essentially the same as on the DC-10.
The point in favour of the MD-111 is that this plane is built like a tank, structurally very solid and can be easily converted into a freighter.
BTW, back in 2000, LH wanted to buy more MD-11s from Boeing. Boeing wanted to close down the line because they saw the MD-11 as a competition product to their B747-400. Lufthansa had to insist to get at least the MD-11s they ordered before. As soon as the last MD-11 left the factory, Boeing sent in teams with cutting torches to destroy the jigs. There would have been a market for about 20 more cargo MD-11s for LH.

Jan

[Edited 2004-10-07 07:05:28]
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SXMbyKLM747
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:08 pm

why was the MD-11 such a disappointement for passenger-airlines? Why did it not live up expectations and in what respect???
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RedDragon
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:36 pm

"Many new-generation transport aircraft have been developed with DFBW flight control systems. Among them are the Boeing MD-11 and 777 jetliners, the Boeing C-17 military transport, and the A-300 series of passenger and cargo carriers built by Airbus Industries in Europe."

Hmmm, Airbus only introduced FBW with the A320 - neither A300 nor A310 débuted with it. (Although did Airbus later fit FBW to the A300-600?)

Rich
 
Alessandro
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:27 pm

No, I think they should dust off the MD-12 project instead...
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elwood64151
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:39 am

why was the MD-11 such a disappointement for passenger-airlines? Why did it not live up expectations and in what respect???

Because they found that the aircraft didn't have the promised range at MTOW; because the 777 offered basically the same range and capacity on the new ETOPPS routes with lower maintenance costs; and because MDD didn't have the cvomplimentary product line that Boeing and Airbus had developed. While the 777 had the 767, 757, and 737 below it, the MD-11 had only MD-80s and -90s as complimentary aircraft. I understand there were some other engineering problems with the aircraft, but I am not aware specifically of what they were.

I firmly believe that if MDD had redeveloped the DC-8-50 as a twin to compete with the 757, you would still see new MDD aircraft coming off the line today (other than the 717, that is)... Also that whole engineering problem with the MD-90 didn't help their prospects...

No, I think they should dust off the MD-12 project instead...

That's basically MDD dusting off the original plans for the DC-10, a four-engined passenger aircraft capable of transporting 550-600 passengers 4500-6000 nm (probably longer than that today), right? Basically, they were planning the A380 to come out of Long Beach assembly lines before anyone at Airbus knew they could ever build such a monster...
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ny-jfk-lga
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:56 am

MD-12, what an awesome design.
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anxebla
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RE: Should Boeing Put The MD-11 Back In Production?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:37 am

767-332ER... Read in Avion Revue, nº 267, Sept 2004, page 46 title " Salon Farnborough, Mulally:B-777 Carguero"

"según Mulally, las aerolíneas la estan deseando, dadas las excelentes caractarísticas de este avión, y sin duda sustiturá en el futuro a todos los grandes cargueros.El B-777F podría estar disponible en 2008"

According to A.Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, they are thinking in to do a new 777 Freighter version, and many airlines wish it. (this info, according to Boeing, no according reality Big grin ) B-777F can be available in 2008.
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