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gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:50 am

It seems their focus, over the last 50 or so years, has gone from protecting safe and fair working conditions to negotiating outrageously extra-market compensation packages.

Hear hear.

Unions should have gone out at the end of the industrial revolution.

N
 
Mikey711MN
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:19 am

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:57 am

Unions should have gone out at the end of the industrial revolution.

Perhaps, but their continued existence has probably prevented the need for a second one.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
BUFjets
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:27 pm

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:07 am

There was a brief article in USA Today last Friday about a Bill in Congress requiring other airlines to honor tickets of airlines that shut down. One might imagine some law makers are preparing for the liquidation of US Airways.

I've got tickets on US Jan 27th-31st. I'd say my odds of flying US at that time are about 50-50.
 
SWAbubba
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:15 am

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:23 am

Unions should have gone out at the end of the industrial revolution.

If they had you could expect quite a few accidents like the Downeast Airlines DHC-6 in Rockland, Maine on May 30, 1979. Unfortunately the accident report isn't available online, but it reads like a how-to for incompetent management. Essentially they ignored almost every FAA rule you could think of and fired anyone who questioned what they were doing (with a bad recommendation so the employees wouldn't be able to get hired anywhere else). The FAA did nothing despite loads of complaints until they crashed one during an unauthorized instrument approach.

As long as you have management that is honest and really has their employees' best interests at heart there is no need for a union. Unfortunately that is rarely the case in the aviation world and when it happens it usually doesn't last very long.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:25 am

Looks like another great airline is going down at the hands of unions....it's a sad world we live in when the ones who are supposed to protect us lead to our destruction...

The unions are not alone in the blame. Management is also to blame. There is only so much blood you can lose before you die...dimple fact.



One Nation Under God
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14089
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:37 am

This is NOT the fault of the Unions. This is the low cost airline era at work. US had too much debt after 9/11 and could not compete with Wn or B6. That is why US will be gone soon.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
jeb94
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:19 pm

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:57 am

Like it or not, US had some of the highest labor costs in the airline industry. I think Delta and maybe UA have those titles now. As for USAir management, at one point in time they were trying to simplify the fleet to just 737, 757, and 767 but then Wolfe came on board and went Airbus, thus complicating things and causing costs to skyrocket since now you have to train mechanics, pilots, and have parts and tooling for all of these different types of aircraft. That's but one example of USAir's management problems at the top. Also, just because a company is unionized doesn't mean its a bad thing. Southwest has had unions for a long time but Herb would negotiate fairly and in good faith for both his company's benefit and his employee's benefit. Did anyone hear of labor problems at Southwest under Herb? This just goes to show that good management that actually cares can keep unionized employees happy and keep the airline profitable. Too many airline CEO and management teams these days have only the shareholder in mind (which they tend to be big shareholders) and screw the employees. They treat the unions as the enemy and so the unions react as enemies. The whole idea of teamwork from the top all the way to the bottom is lost, the us against them mentality is born within the company between labor and management instead of focused between competitors like it should be, and you see what has happened to many a large company, not just in the airline industry.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26641
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:16 am

Jeb, you are right. When workers at an airline see people at another carrier that is called a "low cost carrier" making more money than them (which is the case at WN, and now B6 which is non-union because Neelman deals with the employees directly and has voted against going union) they wonder why costs are still high. Southwest still has great union plans, great pay and good work rules. They ask their F/As to pick up a couple pieces of trash, and they are happy to do it because they are not worried about being stuck below the poverty line when WN decides to make some idiotic decision, because they don't. People are still vested after 5 years, they collect and the money is there. Bashing unions because of political interest here (and that is all it is) does not change this. Hell, you can look aside from the US and look at "legacy" type carriers like LH and BA that are unionized, wih powerful unions and still make money.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:20 am

This is NOT the fault of the Unions.

Yes, it is. US has archaic work rules and procedures that are required by contract.

The reason WN does well is because their work rules are modern, and their unions not greedy.

N
 
N670UW
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:30 am

Yes, it is. US has archaic work rules and procedures that are required by contract.

Yet who agreed to that contract? Management. Labor didn't hold a gun to management's head to agree on it.



670
 
jeb94
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:19 pm

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:45 am

Well, actually, to some extent they did. A strike is a big deal, though it hurts both sides tremendously. The threat of a strike can be all it takes to get the contract passed. More so with trained employee groups like Pilots and mechanics, somewhat with F/A's since you can't quickly replace them and you can't operate without them. I say somewhat with F/A's only because they are trained in house and, while loosing them will hurt operations for a few months, longer and more painfully with larger airlines, the airline won't come to an instant halt like with the pilots and mechanics. Comair being a good example. It goes back to the whole way both sides treat the other. If management doesn't treat the unions and the employees they represent as hostile, the unions are more likely to be agreeable and a contract that is good for everyone is more likely. WN is a good example of that, though times are starting to change a little with them.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26641
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Dire News From The USAirways Camp

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:49 am

Actually, some people say that some of WN's rules (especially with pay) are archaic, but they carry on and have their contracts in place
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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