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ACAfan
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:25 pm

Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:07 am

During the debate on Wednesday, John Kerry said that he would fight for Boeing and prevent them from losing market share to Airbus. Specifically, Kerry said the following:

"The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months."

I did not understand what be means to do, so I ask you, the civil aviation experts (not the political experts) to make sense of it for me. Specifically, I have three questions:

1. What current government policies about Boeing does John Kerry disagree with?
2. What specific policies has John Kerry advocated about Boeing?
3. What policies, if any, has the Bush administration changed about Boeing?


In order to prevent this thread from being deleted, I have made some RULES.
Note to respondees and moderators:

1. This is NOT a A vs. B thread.
2. This is NOT a poll of any kind.
3. This is NOT a thread to promote a particular candidate.
4. This is NOT a thread to denigrate a particular candidate.
5. This thread IS about BOEING and government policies about BOEING.
6. Please keep discussion within the realm of civil aviation.
7. I dont see how, but you may figure out a way to talk about the Northwest DC-9s. I have no objection to those oldies but goodies.
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
jmc1975
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:15 am

What is the government supposed to do with Boeing? Airbus gets subsidized by the EU, which is not a good thing for society, but it's good for Airbus and the airlines that operate their products. For the US Government to subsidize Boeing would be like making two wrongs a right. It would take it's toll on all of us and would eventually drain the resources of both the US and EU. Keep in mind, the US Government is already a huge customer of Boeing's military defense products.


.......
 
N1120A
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:17 am

Kerry has been talking for a long time about the government's non-interest in unfair competition that has gone on in the aircraft industry. Bush has maintained a distance from this issue, until Boeing put political pressure and began a PR campaign highlighting the issues involved. To be fair, Airbus does have a case when it comes to corporate welfare, but it is very possible that Boeing would be in a much better position if they could compete on an even playing field. Also, Boeing has made money on its jetliners from the very begining, risking the entire company twice and comming up with the 707 an 747. Airbus was set up with state aid and still recieves direct state aid (if an airline in the EU got it, they would be severly sanctioned.
The main thing here is constituancy. Kerry is a Democrat, and supported by many, many more unions than Bush. This includes Boeing's workforce, that has seen severe cuts in the past few years, and they see Airbus as a major cause of that. Kerry has worked hard for these workers, while Bush is indifferent at best and hates unions. Still, he cannot ignore when a big part of corporate america is crying for aid, and that is why he is now trying to switch. For him, it is about campaign money and "looking tough" for Kerry it is about the people who work at Boeing
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AirBuffalo
Posts: 83
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:45 am

It comes down to Kerry needing a posterchild for his "unfair trade practices" stands. Pretty much everyone knows of Boeing, and people get a visceral reaction when they hear that "Old Europe" is driving out an American industrial stalwart with their anti-capitalistic corporate welfare. What he is actually advocating is unclear, though, since "quick fix" protective tariffs similar to those Bush used for the steel industry were a complete disaster and the timescale/economics of the airliner industry don't fit well into election year political platforms.

This probably has large implications if it continues to get such high-level visablity. It will turn into even more of a US/EU fight (vs B/A) than it already is.

To answer the direct questions, Kerry is refering more to the EU's policies toward Airbus than the US's policies toward Boeing. The Bush administration has done very little in changing "policies" toward the commerical side of Boeing (with possible exception of the tanker deal which was essentially a military subsidy to keep the 767 line alive).

 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:45 am

Don't worry, Kerry will change his mind again and order an A380for AF1.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
InnocuousFox
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:24 am

When you are challenger, your best card is to make noise about something the incumbent did or did not do. Thankfully, you aren't held accountable for the decision and all the ramifications - therefore you only need say something that sounds good.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:45 am

What was Bush's response?

Yeah, I thought so...nothing!

All he cares about are his fat cats... If Bush continues his support of outsourcing of jobs and corporate greed, than maybe the US will have to putchase an A380 AF1...

Bush's presidency has created 1.9 million new jobs due to an upsurge in Walmarts job openings... so go ask someone in St.Louis who has lost their aerospace job to go to work at the check out counters. We got a man in Washington who cares for us... yup...

So kudos for Kerry to finally bring this on...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:52 am

Hey BoeingBus:

Before you go tooting Flip/Flop's horn louder than you are here, keep in mind that Heinz has more foreign workers than the have US workers here. Kerry is unfit for the job he is looking to ooze into. It's a crying shame when you are sitting in a POW camp and someone whoe is STILL a serving member of the armed forces meets with the enemy and says that all you did is criminal, sorry but the man has no honor.

About the issues, just look at Cessna, they almost went completely out of the single engine market due to the issues with lawsuits. Nobody is perfect, but as a Democrat, I can't vote for Kerry.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
warren747sp
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:57 am

How many electoral vote in the State of Washington?
I believe Kerry is a great politician but can not take his words at any value!
747SP
 
N1120A
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:01 am

If Heinz, which Kerry has nothing to do with except being married to the owner, has more overseas workers it is because they deal in foodstuffs, and that requires having plants all over the world. It is the same thing with Coca Cola.
As far as POW stuff, I will say one thing as it is not an A.net topic. The reason John Kerry went to Vietnam when relations were normalized is because he was one of the most affected by the war, having fought in it and performed amazingly. Also, he brought to light what was being done because no one else would. Not only was he pointing out breaches of international law, but also trying to protect his comrades in arms from having to lose their lives, limbs and families to the conflict. It links in to Boeing, where he is fighting for jobs in the US and tax money to take care of our people and country, where Bush cares not about any of that. As a Democrat in the coloquial sense and in the sense that I favor Democracy, I must vote for Kerry
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 am

As a former member of the armed services, what Kerry did is a gut punch. I would like to see someone that says it like it is; which is not going to happen. As to aerospace workers, its not about Boeing Commercial only. What about Boeing Military/Space. Kerry has consistently voted to shut down programs that keep aerospace workers employed. What happens when the US military doesn't buy enough of the F-35 and some of the fabrication gets farmed out overseas? What about those jobs?
Kerry will only tell you want to hear, and if he wins, will conveniently forget all his "promises" as he allows the UN to have a greater say in US policy.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:14 am

"Hey BoeingBus:

Before you go tooting Flip/Flop's horn louder than you are here"

He actually didn't. He was pointing out how horrible George W. Bitch is.

As for me, since I have US citizenship, I'm voting for Kerry because I am against fascism and imperialism, not beacuse I necessarily like him.

If Bush wins in 2004, there will be nothing left in 2008.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:27 am

I'm sorry people, but most of the damage to Boeing was done during the 90s under Clinton's watch. The Clinton administration allowed and encouraged the dollar to appreciate to ridiculous levels against all other currencies, which made it possible for Airbus, whose products are priced in dollars but costs are primarily in Euros, to gain market share by selling planes at prices at which Boeing could not compete at. Moreover, Clinton didn't do anything about the subsidies that Europe was giving to Airbus during this time when Airbus was gaining share and rapidly becoming an entrenched competitor.
What we see today is a result of the failures of the Clinton administration, who preferred to be loved in Europe than to take them to task, and who preferred to enjoy the tempory budget surplusses that were a result of capital gains taxes and investment boom from a stock market bubble fed in large part by money coming from overseas due to an increase in the dollar.

As for whether Democrats care about unionized workers, one has to note that the job losses in the heavily unionized manufacturing sector started in 1998, about a year after the dollar started a rapid ascent. It is only in the past year where we have started to see an increase in manufacturing jobs, due in no small part to the Bush administration's willingness to let the dollar fall starting in 2002-3.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
burnsie28
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:29 am

This doesn't surprise me coming from Kerry, he wants to help the airlines more. One of many reasons for me to vote his way.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:46 am

Well, as always, Senator Kerry talks, President Bush acts:

Bush threatens possible WTO case against Airbus
SEATTLE (AFP) Saturday August 14, 2004
US President George W. Bush warned that the United States may bring WTO action in September against Airbus Industrie, citing "unfair" government subsidies to the European aircraft maker.
http://breaking-news.news.designerz.com/bush-threatens-possible-wto-case-against-airbus.html


Bush Asserts That Airbus Receives Unfair Subsidies
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20040816-08.html
Seattle, Washington, on August 13, 2004
Speaking in Seattle, Washington, on August 13, President George W. Bush said that airplane manufacturer Airbus continues to receive unfair subsidies from European governments.

U.S. Files Grievance Over Airbus With WTO
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13181-2004Oct6?language=printer
Thursday, October 7, 2004;

A little late to the party Senator Kerry.



NO URLS in signature
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:46 am

ACAfan,
I love how we, now a days, have to put so many disclaimers. If we are not getting another one ripped fro posting something twice in 4 years, those damn administrators are deleting the topics. I had a topic deleted by some asshole and I replied back with no anwser. The person didn't read the whole post and just assumed it to be in the wrong area.
ARGHHHHHHHHHH!
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
aeronuts
Posts: 110
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:52 am

Does it matter? Did Boeing cried foul, as loud as today, when Airbus started with EU money. They made a wimper, because Boeing controlled 90% of the market at that time. So, advance the clock 30 years, Airbus has caught up and passed Boeing, now it's not fair??

Maybe in 30 years, we'll hear that Microsoft will face competition from EU and doesn't have a 100% strangle hold of the market. We can only hope.

 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:00 am

I would have to agree with Atmx2000. Kerry is too much hot air. And somebody posted Kerry wants to help the airlines more; times are changing, and there is no free lunch. Labor and management have to co-exist if ANY corporate operation is going to survive. I have seen the realities of the unions and airlines. The airline industry, and the suppliers and MRO facilities are affected by how the global market is operating.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
boeingbus
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:05 am

MidnightMike -

It's conveniently timed for the election! You?re naive in thinking that he really cares about you...

Bush is moron - he doesn't speak the English language properly and you expect him to understand trade issues...

As a REPUBLICAN I am voting for Kerry... this is the worst President - EVER! He just let everything go on his watch... fiscal responsibility, environment, energy, and most of all US manufacturing...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
LHSebi
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:16 am

I am so f*cking sick of this...when any republican has run out of arguments for voting for Bush (which happens to be quite quickly), They start posting pictures. "Ooooh, look! Bush is more of a man than Kerry, so we have to vote for him!"..... Insane Insane Pathetic!

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
US A333 PIT
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:26 am

From UA744KSFO: "He was pointing out how horrible George W. Bitch is.
As for me, since I have US citizenship, I'm voting for Kerry because I am against fascism and imperialism, not beacuse I necessarily like him.
If Bush wins in 2004, there will be nothing left in 2008."

Making statements like that, regardless of what side of the political spectrum you sit on, just make you sound out of touch and blinded by ideaology. I'm an independent and as of now am undecided (I need to watch a rebroadcast of last nights debate). I too passionately disagree with W on many issues (including some foreign policy) but to infer that he is a "facsist/imperialist" is simply ridiculous and undermines the goals of people who disagree with him. Sorry to stray from aviation, but you can't just let malicious and unsubstantiated comments slide.
 
Leskova
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:34 am

Hmm... this really could have been an interesting discussion - unfortunately, the first post started right out into factually wrong things, and it's been a slugfest ever since... too bad...

ACAfan - it was a good try, unfortunately - quite obvious here - you cannot expect to get a discussion based on facts here on a.net on either any A vs B topic, or any Bush vs. Kerry topic.

I'd say wait till after the election, then give it a new try - maybe you'll get some answers that actually deal with the topic in a reasonable way... won't help to clarify any facts interesting for any election decision, but might just actually get you some of the answers you wanted.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
BostonGuy
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:39 am

First, Kerry's wife doesn't own Heinz. She merely inherited her first husband's fortune. Teresa Heinz-Kerry has no relationship to the Heinz Company.

Second, John Kerry is pretending to be upset about Boeing's disadvantage in the marketplace. Trust me, I'm from Massachusetts and Kerry just won't deliver on any of his promises or "plans".

The Airbus vs Boeing state subsidy issue is very complicated and will take quite a lot of negotiations... Kerry's hot air won't resolve anything.
 
aeronuts
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:51 am

Bostonguy... right on..
 
alphascan
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:07 am

Don't worry Sebass; you're not invited to the voting booth!

Kerry has had 20 years to introduce a bill to do whatever his "plan" is to assist Boeing. He has had a grand total of 5 of his bills that became law in 20 years. Not exactly mainstream is he? Now that really is "pathetic".

"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
Ken777
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:11 am

I also was in the military and completed 3 tours to Vietnam - Kerry doesn't bother me a bit. Kerry actually spent time on the ground in Vietnam while Bush pulled strings to get in the reserves and Chaney didn't even put on a uniform - he had too many priorities that were more important.

What does bother me is the 100% increase in medical insurance premiums that I have been hit with in the last 4 years. Now it's $1,000 per month.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:14 am

I saw some news reports that the CEO of Boeing may accept reductions in tax subsidies, other assistance from the State of Washington so they can look better as to the issues of EC subsidies to Airbus. Guess this offer is to try to turn the issue of the 'pot calling the kettle black', to to look like we don't need subsidies so you don't need them either.
 
remymartin11
Posts: 94
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:14 am

Regardless of any EU subsidy, the fact remains that Airbus is turning out a superior product now, and on the horizon. As much as I love the 777, the A340 is superior in so many ways, most importantly, passenger comfort. Airbus has the 380 on deck and what does Boeing have, the 7E7? A 737 on steroids. How original.

Any Euro could easily make a similar claim that US Aerospace companies have benefitted from a "monopoly" with all the consolidation.

Product is hero. Boeing has forgotten that in the Commercial Aviation Division. I'm afraid it's going to take their 120 minute JFK-NRT space plane to recapture their luster of yesteryear.
 
kim777fan
Posts: 497
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:22 am

While I would like to see a more level playing field for Boeing, Kerry is looking for trouble suggesting corporate welfare for one corporation and not advocating it for another. In fact, I really cringe when I think of more corporate welfare to counter a wrong perpetrated in Europe. Boeing and Airbus need to compete with each other on ideas and ingenuity, not on who can get the best government deal or debating whether defense contracts or loans you can selectively pay back are a de facto subsidy.

I'm also sorry to hear about your medical premiums, but I think the best answer is a consumer-based health care system that promotes healthy competition, not on which government program can dole it out the best.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:22 am

Kerry has consistently voted to shut down programs that keep aerospace workers employed. What happens when the US military doesn't buy enough of the F-35 and some of the fabrication gets farmed out overseas? What about those jobs?

Newsflash. There was once a Secretary of Defense who was not a fan of quite a few defense programs. The RAH-66 Comanche, the MV-22 Osprey, the A-12 Avenger II, the B-2 Spirit the Seawolf-class attack submarine, the "Midgetman" missile system, the F-14D - none of these really pleased our SecDef. So he either cut appropriations for them or killed the programs entirely. Jobs were lost and the military was left out to dry on several systems needed to replace aging equipment. That SecDef? Dick Cheney.

Moral of the story? Both sides have their hands bloody on that issue.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
kim777fan
Posts: 497
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:47 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:33 am

Pointing out Kerry's long consistent dovish voting record was to illustrate that his hawkish rhetoric simply does not jive with the dovish record.

For better of for worse, I don't think anyone can realistically portray Cheney as a dove in Hawk's clothing.

This is a typical Democrat ploy of promoting protectionism and trade wars which almost never work.
 
warren747sp
Posts: 988
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:28 am

Right RemyMartin,
I think at least half of the members at this forum will strongly disagree with you biased opinion.
the A340 is far superior to the T777, are you out of your mind.?
Calling the 7E7 a 737 on steroid, what's an appropriate nickname for the ever so gorgeous A380 in you eyes then?
W
747SP
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:44 am

"The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months."


Airbus was NOT violating international rules and subsidies. The EU and the US signed a deal in 1992 that turns out to favour Airbus at the moment. Good for them, Airbus didn't sign the agreement, so why blame them? Did Kerry also mention the Tanker deal? Or all the Boeing defense contracts?........

And Warren747sp, the A340 is far superior to the T777 if you compare all the elements, including price and passenger/crew comfort.

KL911
 
AAplatnumflier
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:40 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:44 am

773 for Air Force One would be nice. I would like to see the government provide more funding to airlines so they can have the money to buy planes from Boeing and not airbus. Don't forget Boeing can be more expensive, but at the end of the day which is American and which will provide jobs for America?
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:33 am

Am I the only one here who is sick of hearing about how great Bush or Kerry is or how bad they are? The thread-starter clearly stated that he didn't want this to be a political debate, but look what we have here....way to go guys! If you want to talk about politics, there's a nice forum called non-aviation. Go check it out...
 
pzurita1
Posts: 1243
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:21 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:52 am

I recommend to MODERATORS to take this thread into Non-Av.
However, I appreciate readingo how you Americans feel about your next elections. But what started as a pausible aviation subject is now a complete Bush v Kerry.

So please, take this interesting thread to the proper forum.
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:12 pm

AAplatnumflier

you're young so I am assuming you have no idea how economics works. Let me tell you this. Buying a Boeing just because it is american doesn't necessarily create more American Jobs or creater american wealth just because boeing is based in America.

Your thinking is refered to as Mercantilism, and, even as far back as Karl Marx, it was recognised it didn't work and things weren't necessarily one can only win at the others expense. (in other words, win-win situations are possible)

Boeing isn't exactly about to shut down either folks... It just doesn't have 90% of the market anymore. The only reason boeing ever got in a position like that was more to do with the fact McDonell Douglas wasn't aggressive enough to keep its marketshare. too many gaps in its product line. Your also forgetting that EVERY TIME an A320 rolls of the line, the engines have american components, and EVERY time a 737 rolls the line, the engines contain FRENCH components.

When it comes to an election, your not going to hear what honestly needs to be done. Both G W Bush and Kerry are both going to say that they are going to do absolutely everything they can to "save boeing". The reality is, if they start causing too many problems internationally and throwing their weight around, it may cost them orders in places like the UK, or even result (in an extreme case) on the EU putting Tariffs on their aircraft. (Air France/KLM, the biggest airline in EU, prefers the 777 for long haul ops folks...lets not forget that!!!!!) Just stop for a second and remember who's airlines are actually making big profits at the moment????? I'd feel a lot more comfortable trying to sell to BA or Virgin than to USAirways.

This debate is far from realistic, and it isnt going to look at actual economics. This is purely to appeal to "the bleeding heartstrings", to Unions who fear for their jobs, and to the masses who just don't understand that things don't happen in isolation. Also, the aerospace industry isn't about to leave the United States. 737s can't be built in India for the same price they can in seattle because the skill base isn't in that economy in the same way. It would cost more to do it there. It would be less efficient to do it there.
This is the same reason why the chinese MD-90 program failed, and the Indonesian attempt to enter the turboprob market.

This is no different to the situation with NAFTA. Now did everything end up in mexico? Did mexico get rich and Canada and the USA just fail? Or did everybody benifit? Have some faith in your own company. Or better still, if you really do believe airbus is in the wrong for taking these loans (which i may add, although it doesn't have to repay until profits are seen, it HAS BEEN REPAYING THEM) why don't you see either KERRY OR BUSH offer boeing such loans?
Seriously why not? If they really cared, and weren't playing politics why don't they step in and match the EU's offer? Because they don't, and it isn't going to ever give boeing back a 90% marketshare. If they take this to the WTO and the BOTH loose their existing finances, it still isn't going to get boeing to its old 90% marketshare. Those days are over.... and it was largely due to Microsoft, and IBM and these companies. Their success is what drove the American dollar so high in the 1990s, that it became more economical to produce Aircraft in Europe. So The american economy switched its resources out of things like manufacturing and into the ultra high tech... which it exported to the rest of the world with amazing success. That is what made it hard for boeing. It would be no different to such success making it hard for textile manufacturers, or for Farmers. The dollar was too strong, and nobody could afford american basically!


So take a chill pill.
 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:13 pm

US A333 PIT,

Sorry if you were upset by my comments, but most of my frustration comes from the fact that I have been a Republican since I registered to vote, and now I feel like my party was stolen by the neo-conservatives. I remember a Republican party that believed that deficits were bad. Now I see the young taxpayers footing the bill for corporate welfare so that the old rich people can buy a fourth house in Aspen.

The reason I use the terms fascism and imperialism are because fascism is defined in the dictionary as the corporate control of government. Imperialism is when the natural resources of other nations are exploited for the benefit of one. Combine the two, and I think you've got a deadly combination. You have the natural resources of other nations being exploited for the corporations.

I also hate the fact that Bush exploits Christianity so much. I am a religious Catholic who values life without exception as provided for by St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologiae. George Bush has not been a pro-life President, and I feel as though my party has been stolen from me twice.

Again, I do not vote for Kerry because I like him, but because Bush has stolen the country I grew up in. He had the sympathy of the world on September 12, 2001, and now it's all gone.
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:20 pm

If McDonnell Douglas was around.. Would NW order more planes from them than they would Airbus... How about asking them to reopen the DC9 line???

Sorry, couldn't resist

Now, on topic... I don't see how Kerry can change Boeing's sales any more than Bush can... Airlines decide what planes they want by fuel savings, and by... PRICE.. If Airbus offers our airlines lower prices, than they will go for Airbus.

If I had to decide whether to buy a Ford or Honda, I would go for the Honda (I have a Mustang, but am looking for a used Civic). Better Fuel efficiency. No matter what John Kerry does (or would do if he won) He cannot make me buy a specific product.
Puhdiddle
 
F9Fan
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:42 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:34 pm

Well, Washington State has 11 electoral votes, and most recent polls have them leaning for Kerry. As for the current issues, it goes deeper than trade subsidies. There are allegations that the Air Force rigged the bidding process for the purchase of 100 air refueling tankers to favor Boeing. It is reported that Boeing hired Air Force aquisition people either immediately before or immediately after the contract was awarded. Airbus has been lobbying to get the bidding on the project reopened, and have sanctions placed on Boeing, such as not being allowed to bid on Defense Department contracts for a couple years. By the way, one of the leading critics of the Air Force/Boeing deal is Senator John McCain (R-Arizona)
 
Bobs89irocz
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:52 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:09 pm

Read the book, "Unfit for Comand"

Kerrys record for the past 20 years shows what hes going to do for this country.

Nothing....


Bush has lead this country through a declining economy when he took over and an attack on our own soil in the past 3 1/2 years hes been in office. Im very pleased we have someone in office thats able to stand up and act like a man when it comes time. Not some one that brings up issues such as A vs B. That is an issue in its self however a few of you need to stop watching the BS 10:00 news and get the FACTS. Just because John Kerry says hes going to be doing this and that, surely doesnt mean hes going to do it.
 
AirframeAS
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:48 pm

How many electoral vote in the State of Washington?

WA State has 11.

I only heard Kerry mention Boeing and Airbus once...in the same sentence and that was basically it. He only said the Boeing word once and the Airbus word once....Bush said never said A or B.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
N79969
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:25 pm

I have to agree with Boeingbus. I voted for Bush and supported him during most of his controversial decisions such as Iraq. I vote Republican more often than not but want to see Bush lose this time around to expunge the cancer of "neoconservatism" from the party. Sorry...had to throw that in.

I think the most concrete thing he could do if elected is raise the priority of the issue.

President Bush early on in his presidency wasted an enormous amount of political capital in the realm of trade by his failed policy of protecting US steel producers and huge farm subsidies. I believe the EU and other countries were in the right when they complained about that policy.

In contrast the fight with Airbus is very legitimate. Despite all the smokescreens that the EU and Airbus are throwing out right now, this issue will outlive the election or any change of administration. If the EU continues its intransigence on this issue, I hope the US government brings out the heavy artillery against the EU. It may be too late to solve the problem as it should be solved. Maybe the US will have to pass laws and allocate resources with an aspirational goal that Boeing regains its 1992 market share. Just like the Europeans do.
 
moose1226
Posts: 247
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:12 pm

Bobs89irocz,

Just because GWB says he is a 'Compassionate Conservative' doesn't mean the neocons who really make the decisions give a d*mn about anyone who isn't rich.

And I'm sure 'Unfit for Command' qualifies just as much for the term BS as your 10:00 news.
 
User avatar
Btblue
Posts: 703
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:20 pm


Airbus may well be receiving an EU sibsidy BUT, I have always wondered why buy a fleet of 737's mixed with 767's and then the 777 and 744 when, you can purchase a similar fleet from Airbus and have the ability to fly an A319 in the morning and an A340 in the afternoon. Commonality - do you have that with the boeing fleet (apart from 75/76)? Commonality saves money.

It's all about airlines saving money these days isn't it?

The stagnant sales period that Boeing is going through (whether it be due to 'unfair' competition or not) is probably a good thing. It will enable them to think hard and clear about their next move. It may not look as though they have an advantage at the moment, but I bet my bottom dollar (or £) that they'll be top dog in a few years again with a series of superior products.

Airbus are innovative and aggressive.

I personally think Boeing have gone through a 'couch potato' phase, reacting rather limply to market needs compared to Airbus.

 
US A333 PIT
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RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:23 pm

UAKSFO744: Thanks for that articulate response. However, I have never heard the definition of fascism that you mentioned. According to webster's dictionary the definition is the following: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism." Regardless of how severly people like to demonize Bush, to say he is a terrorist dictator who suppresses the opposition (like a Hitler, Stalin, or Hussein) is simply irresponsible as an educated human being. The same can be said about those who refer to America's action in Iraq as imperialism. I disagree with many of the motives behind going to Iraq, but to say we're there to conquer and rule, as the definition of imperialism clearly states, is simply false. I through the flag at your previous comments because I believe that advocating these types of maladies as you did, feeds the fire of those who hate America already and inspires hate in those who do not know enough to decide for themselves. It is this kind of rhetoric that has sparked the anti-americanism that exists in the world today. As a citizen who loves his country it is my duty to defend it against claims such as these.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:43 pm

", the A340 is far superior to the T777 if you compare all the elements, including price and passenger/crew comfort."

Kl911,

Is this based on your personal shopping experience?




***************
US A333PIT,

Well said.
 
foxiboy
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:34 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:40 pm

N79969 Sorry but your post has just hi lighted some of the problems with the us at the moment ie break out the heavy artilary thats clever ,dont forget some of your longest alies are european, but if that what you want fine,pull your forces out of thier eu bases,close all american companies down,and pull uk troops and other eu troops out of iraq leave the us to go it alone,this is extreme but it could happen.
Anyway this A v B is getting boring so boeing dont have the lions share of the market anymore and airbus get loans,but boeing get susidies from military contracts, this same sort of thing when concord was launched,the us hated it,why: because the us didnt make it,same as airbus now build an aircraft which is to some extent a technilogicaly advanced. Me thinks alot of sour grapes on your side of the pond. As a side issue if there was a trade war how many us majors would be left if the eu stopped them flying into eu.
 
N79969
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:37 am

EADS gets "subsidies" from military contracts. Boeing gets "subsidies" from military contracts. (I do not believe these are true subsidies)

The commercial airplane division of EADS gets free or near free money. The commercial airplane division of Boeing does not. EU smokescreens nothwithstanding it's a fairly straightforward scenario.

Why do Europeans like to point out EADS profitability as evidence that Airbus is economically viable but then complete forget that Airbus is part of EADS when it is time bring up the issue of alleged back door subsidies in the form of military contracts? Very convenient memory loss?

Oddly enough they do remember that the Boeing Commercial Airplane Group is part of the Boeing Corportation. Is it just the user-friendly naming protocol adopted by Boeing? Or perhaps memory enhancing dietary supplements, organic produce, and 6-week vacations?

During the 1960s while the Soviets were out showing Czechoslovakia and Hungary who was boss, Western Europe was amazingly cutting back military spending and letting the US pick up their slack. Instead of contributing to their common defense, they decided it was better for the US to supply most of it for them and then set up some of the world's most generous social security systems for themselves.

This outraged some members of the US Congress and legislation (Mansfield amendment) was proposed to drastically reduce US forces in Europe causing many European governments to nearly soil themselves when they realized what the consequences would mean. The measure was defeated eventually chiefly because hawkish Republicans felt it would send the wrong message to the USSR and I tend to agree.

Since a big chunk of those Pentagon-purchased Boeing airplanes and weapons were deployed in the defense of Europe for the past 50 years, I think it is appalling when our dear European allies use that as an excuse to justify their aerospace job transfer program known as Airbus.

Boeing was a relatively small defense contractor anyway until 1997 when acquired McDonnell Douglas.

If you do find Airbus versus Boeing threads to be boring, it may not be a wise idea to click and read threads with titles that indicate such content. Easy problem to avoid.


 
foxiboy
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:34 am

RE: Kerry's Promotion Of Boeing During Debate...

Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:59 am

Well why was it that the uk was the one few EU countries to show the US support in Iraq and UK troops like US troops are still there but again in the UK we get the feeling that some not all US citizens think they are the only one out there and we still show support.

Personally i think there are more important things in life to worry about than
A v B , at the end of the day an aggrement was signed in 92 and the EU is sticking to it and some not all in the US dont like it anymore.

Its like a kid giving its candy away then screaming they want it back after its been eaten.

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