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boeingbus
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Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:39 am

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=572333

There's more indication the A350 will be launched and will be using some form of launch aid.

I see it more than ever that Boeing has a valid case as long as these subsidies continue Airbus will have an advantage.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
whitehatter
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:50 am

I see it more than ever that Boeing has a valid case as long as these subsidies continue Airbus will have an advantage.

I see you conveniently neglected to quote the other points in the article.

Such as Airbus contending that Boeing have received almost 50% more in subsidies (non-refundable) than Airbus have (refundable).

This WTO dispute is going to get very bloody, and both sides will bleed. Remember the phrase which was mentioned at the start of this affair

"Mutual Assured Embarassment"

That is going to feature a lot in the near future, as is the word "gave" for other reasons. Such as Boeing were "given" details of the Airbus tanker bid.

There is a lot of difference between "gave" and "offered". In other words Boeing accepted the details. That is a major violation in itself and the lawyers are going to have a ball with that one issue.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
AvObserver
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:43 pm

Well, this negates a point I made elsewhere, thinking Airbus might avoid launch aid for the fairly inexpensive A350 development. I guess this is a case of "get it while you can because tomorrow it might be gone". Airbus will scoop it up before either the U.S. and EU settle their dispute or before the WTO rules on said dispute. Makes sense, it might indeed be the last time they can do this. Might as well grab it before it's gone.
 
mozart
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:00 pm

BoeingBus,

do your maths.

According to the source you give here, the Europe-US agreement gives manufacturers the possibility to get launch aid for up to 33%. It also says elsewhere in the article that the development cost for the A350 will be 2-3bn, and that Airbus will be asking for "up to" 1bn in aid. 33% of 3 bn is?--- Bingo, 1 bn. So, in other words, Airbus sticks to the rule of the agreement that has been unilaterally ended by the US.

I am not saying that subsidies are great, and I think commercially successful companies like Airbus and Boeing (sic) should do without state subsidies. I am not a party in the A vs. B war, I like them both. But I am also tired of the constant whining from Boeing. Even when there is an agreement on the table, they still moan and then end it. Wonder what they would do if their products were more successful on the market. But maybe then the Europeans would whine...
 
Oftwftwoab
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:13 pm

I thought this was an interesting bit:

"The Airbus chief said the main casualties of any trade war over subsidies would be US suppliers with which the European aircraft manufacturer spent $6bn a year. M. Forgeard claimed that the first victim of the dispute had already been the American engine supplier General Electric, which had lost out to Rolls-Royce on a $1bn order to power All Nippon Airways' fleet of 50 7E7s. M. Forgeard said that because Japan was already heavily involved in subsidising the airframe of the 7E7 it did not want to risk being sucked further into the dispute by buying American engines as well."

This is very savvy, as it's a means of bringing countervailing political pressure to bear from US industry. (A bit like the steel dispute. The steel tariffs were withdrawn when the EU, with other countries, started informing individual US companies - especially in marginal states - that they would be the subject of retaliatory sanctions. They soon got onto their representatives in Washington. Shortly after - no more tariffs.)

From what I can see, Airbus and the EU generally are pretty unworried about this trade dispute. They'd prefer not to have a trade war, but will fight one if necessary.
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:13 pm

G'day

Not applying for launch aid now would be admitting that appying for it previously was wrong. Wouldn't help the case before the WTO.

My $ 0.02

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
col
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:53 pm

Boeing has a valid case against Airbus. Airbus has a valid case against Boeing. Lockheed has a valid case against Boeing. US tax payers should have a valid case against Boeing and US Government (KC767, C130 and any other gifts). And so the aviation industry world goes around.

Why don't the US Government offer Boeing the same terms as Europeans. Why don't the Europeans give Airbus the Tax breaks etc as Boeing will get.
Then we can all just get on with our lives.


 
boeingbus
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:57 pm

Look folks... you can debate this all your want... but there is a HUGE difference between a cash handout w/ no risk compared to a tax break (tax breaks dont do much during the engineering/development phase)...

Currently, Airbus is making tons of money (more than Boring) and they should be using their own earnings and not EU tax payers money to launch new planes.

WTO will look into this and hopefully a compromise can be reached.

Honeslty, I would leave the agreements as they are and the US should mimic the EU and do the same by offering Boeing a 33% hand out, repayable when they aircraft are sold over many years. This industry is vital to our national security as it is for the EU...

so why not???
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:57 pm

Why don't the US Government offer Boeing the same terms as Europeans.

Well, it wouldn't go over very well with the taxpayers.  Big grin
 
eg777er
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:04 pm

Duh....a cost saving (as in a tax break) adds to your profit and loss account in the same way as a cash gift. It's just another way of accounting for it.
 
col
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:04 pm

FriendlySkies.

If they showed it as a loan with repayment, it would be better than the recent fiasco between the US Gov and Boeing on the KC767/C130 and whatever else they were handed. As a Taxpayer, that makes my blood boil. A repayable loan is a better pill to swallow, and would show some honesty.
 
F4N
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:01 pm

To all:

It is probably not wise to take Mr. Forgeard's word at face value about anything in this dispute; he is after all, the #1 pitch-man for the Airbus side of things. However, you gotta love the carrot-stick thing the Europeans are using here.

If GE is the first casulty in this dispute involving Japan, Airbus will be the 2nd.
How many A380 do you see them selling there in the future if all gets as ugly as things portend? Wasn't Japan targetted by Airbus as a major user of A380?

You play; you pay.

regards,

F4N
 
greaser
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:23 pm

However i don't think we can afford to bail boeing out, what is our budget deficit??? 440bn??? thats billion ppl.
Now you're really flying
 
jacobin777
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:06 am

wasn't it just recently that Noël Forgeard said that the 7E7 was basically an "irrelevant" concept?

What happened now?
"Up the Irons!"
 
M27
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:11 am

Duh...go to the grocery store and buy a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread with your document showing you have a tax break. Go to your local car dealer and buy a car with your tax break document.

If a tax break is so great, why don't Airbus and the EU do it this way? (I know they do but they still want more). What kind of collateral does Airbus put up for these loans they receive? I'll answer that, none! Why they don't even have to repay them unless they make money with them! Thats one of the reasons they don't go to a comercial bank for their loans. They say they pay back these government loans at commercial rates, but I have never seen any intrest rates posted for these. I guess thats like the loan itself, if we make money, we will pay you back and we will decide how much intrest we can pay you then.


 
hz747300
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:30 am

Just finished reading the Reuters story... What a pathetic attempt by Airbus to remain competitive. If they sold the idea to airlines first, they would not have to go this route...

Like I have said before, as long as Boeing lives by the 767 tanker agmt, they cannot complain either.
Keep on truckin'...
 
col
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:07 am

I think we are missing one big point here. Airbus have to pay these loans back, as they are successful. The Governments are getting a return on Tax Payers money. I would love to see my tax dollars being used in the same way with Boeing on 7E7, but I'd want to make sure it was going to the correct place.

Let's also not forget that Boeing has received our Tax Dollars. The full extent is still being sorted at present through the committees looking into the c130, KC767 and whatever else this scandal shows up.
 
M27
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:52 am

Col:

Why don't you tell us just how much of a return the EU taxpayers have received on their investment! You seem to be concerned about your taxes. You ought to know this. The key in your statement is "as they are successful"
What if they are not? What happens then?
As far as Boeing getting your tax dollars, sure they are providing a product as well as does EADS for the UK and Australian tanker contracts, the A400m,
the Eurofighter, etc.
As far as your cool remarks about the US tanker, and the C130 tax dollars, I think that if it is determined that you have been charged to much for the C130, then I suspect Lockheed will then get your overpaid tax dollars. As for the US tanker, I'm not aware of 1 red cent you have paid Boeing for it yet!
Just my opinion, but I think your last post is an example of having to go to the bottom of the barrel to come up with something.

 
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keesje
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:44 am

How much does NASA/DOD buy at Boeing on a yearly basis?

I heard numbers of 20 Billion a year, 200 Billion in 10 years..

That is un-be-lie-va-ble much money..

EADS can only dream of that kind of public money..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
col
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:55 am

M27,

Sorry you seem to be upset with my comments?

"What if they are not? What happens then?" - Dunno, they've done very well on their projects so far, and monies are going back to Governments.

I have no problem with Tax Money going to Boeing, read what I said about the 7E7, it will show a good return on investment if we put Tax Payers money in as a loan. Same as Airbus, make it a level playing field.

The C130 deal is an upgrade that Boeing won at the expense of Lockheed. It was one of those sweetheart deals from our friend Darleen Druyun. Lockheed have also asked for other projects which were awarded to Boeing to be looked into. This scandal could go much deeper, and yes our Tax Dollars have already been spent on these projects. You are right the KC767 did not receive any monies, as luckily it was reviewed.

Just my opinions from the bottom of the barrel.

 
FlyMeToTheMoon
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:27 am

Let's do some numbers. The source is The Economist, Reuters and a couple of publications. The numbers are listed in alphabetical order - Airbus being first.

1. Airbus
Main source of subsidies is launch aid - limited to 33% of the development cost. It actually takes the form of soft loan(s) from the governments of Spain, Germany, France and Britain. If the product is not successful the loans do not have to be repaid. If the product is successful the loan(s) and interest have to be paid back and then royalties are to be paid to the respective governments by Airbus. Thus most of the development risk is borne by taxpayers. For the A380 Airbus received $3.7 billion in launch aid. For the proposed A350 Airbus has not yet decided if it will ask for launch aid. Launch aid allowed Airbus to roll out five new products in the past decade while Boeing managed only one.

2. Boeing
Main source of subsidies is the indirect help Boeing gets from military and NASA contract - limited to 4% of turnover (sales). But the story does not end here, following are subsidies that Boeing received for the 7e7. Before anyone jumps I realize that a tax break is does not come in handy in covering up-front investments in development, yet a tax break is still cold hard cash. So here is the list:
1. State of Washington - $3.2 billion in tax breaks in return for doing the final assembly for the 7e7 in Washington State.
2. State of Kansas - provides an interest-free bond worth $200 million in return for the assembly of noses and cockpits in Kansas
3. The Italian government - $590 million in subsidies for Alenia (partly state owned) in return for the manufacture of the rear fuselage in Italy.
4. The Japanese government - $1.5 billion in subsidies to Fuji, Kawasaki and Mitsubishi in return for the manufacture of the wings and wing boxes in Japan.

All told Boeing is getting $5.49 billion in aid for the launch of the 7e7. And this does not count the 4% of sales it can officially re-direct from military and NASA contract proceeds to subsidize development on the 7e7.

I will not take any position on the issues above. But I would like to see comments coming from the a.net-ers.

Have a fun filled weekend and take in the smell of burnt jet fuel be it from an Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, CRJ or your own plane.
Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
 
boeingbus
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:54 am

First, the fact of the matter is that EADS/Airbus is making more money than Boeing... EADS is also making much money in the European defense contracts, also. EADS is building the 400M, purchases several US defense firms.

Second, Boeing has stated publicly that they would concede the tax breaks... So this is a non-issue.

Third, If you owned a business would you rather have no risk loans or tax breaks?? You be crazy not to get the hard cash as w/o the monies to spend on r&d to create a product - the tax breaks dont matter, do they? It's a no brainer...

Fourth, Also, you have to question the fact that local French, German and UK authorities offering assistance, such as land, site planning, city services, widening of roads, etc... again, this is not the point - it's the free access to money and only having to pay it back when and only when air frames are sold. It's a huge bonus for Airbus and obviously they love it...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
boo25
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:00 am

Well as Boeing have been around for so much longer - and for a long time dominating the market - then why haven't they got a huge amount of $$$$$ to splash out on development costs and so on...... or have hundreds of 'fatcat' directors/managers already squandered that money on palatial homes and so on ????

They can't bleat now, they should have kept pace with the market.
I blame it on complacency - all the Boeing lines were remarkable aircraft, but theirs a new player in the field ,leading from the edge and probably being more progressive than Boeing ever anticipated.

They're already starting to lose out with the 757 being dropped and 767/747 sales v slow . . . its like anything , you have to have a good product, but at the right price.
Boeing rested on its laurels for years (and deservedly so) , but i think they've reacted to slowly to the game.
They were only player for too long.
Alot of things in life aint fair, but there is no sentiment in business.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:01 am

It seems to me that the US agreed to a set of rules in 1992. When they start losing the game, they decide they don't like the rules!  Insane
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:12 am

It seems to me that the US agreed to a set of rules in 1992. When they start losing the game, they decide they don't like the rules!

You must remember that in 1992, Airbus had no where near the market share they have today. In 1992, the market was something like 20/80 (Airbus/Boeing), but today it is a fiercly fought 50/50. Why should the trade regulations not reflect this? Do you have something against fair and honest trade?

The purpose of Airbus when it was formed in the 70s was to break the monopoly maintained by Boeing and make aerospace a fair and equitable trade. Now that they have achieved this, anything short of completly equal regulations would be nothing less than supremly hypocritical. Airbus is a big boy, they don't need training wheels anymore. Boeing is now a wise old man, they got their asses kicked when they weren't looking and they have 100% awoken to reality of 2004.

The 1992 agreement is 12 years old, that is a flipin eternity in the furious market place of today. The laws are out of date and do not reflect the market of today. Simple as that. Hence... time to draft new laws.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:22 am

Not to get away from the subsidy debate, but according to the article, first flight of the A350 was projected in 2009. I thought that Airbus wanted a plane in the air by 2006. When did they change this?
 
hoya
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:04 am

Hey guys, I'm not too active in this forum, but I felt that I must chip in into this debate. There's a great BusinessWeek article that basically outlines both B and A's arguments. To summarize, both receive tax breaks and indirect subsidies from defense contracts(combined defense revenues for EADS and BAE are larger than Boeings). The difference is upfront risk. To sum this part up, if Boeing fails with the 7E7, it gets no tax breaks or anything. It loses all its money. Airbus, if it fails with the A380 and potential A350, doesn't have to pay the loans back. Therefore Airbus can take more risks, which eventually leads to lower prices on its planes. I could write more, but I believe everyone should read this article. It's probably the most unbiased one out there.

http://www.local6.com/money/3791183/detail.html

I personally believe Airbus should not take the loans. There are unfair, even the WTO says that, just look at the Bombardier/Canada v. Embraer/Brazil case. It proves on their part that they are afraid in launching the A350 with their own money. If they have enough in the bank, they should use it.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
M27
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:00 am

FlyMeToTheMoon:

I think you made a wonderful post! I have no problem with your post at all. My only comment would be that I question the Economist and Reuters impartiality. I don't know anything about the Economist so I won't comment about them, but if you have ever read many of Reuters news releases, I think that you can see how they are always slanted against Boeing. They always write about Boeing in the most negative terms. They pick and choose analysts
statements they want to use. I don't accuse them of false statements, just carefully chosen statements. I know all news services do this in one way or the other, but I just bring this particular case to your attention.

I am not sure if the statements you used in your post are direct quotes from any of the news sources you mentioned, or just your listing of them, but anyway, both Companies are listed starting with the MAIN source of their subsidies and states these, then it goes own to say, but with Boeing, it doesn't stop hear and lists all the tax breaks Boeing may get. They do not mention Airbus any further. They convenietly forget that Airbus is part of EADS which has its own military contracts, but they never forget Boeing has a military divison.

As far as the tax breaks go, I'm not sure that Airbus could not get these if they were to build a plant in some of these states, and I think Italy would probably do the same for Alenia if Airbus wanted to build a part of a new Airbus aircraft there. I do know Airbus would try to get these tax breaks. I do believe they tried to get Japan to invest in the A380 and were turned down.

I did hear Mr. Stonecipher talking on a confrence call with news media the other day say, that if Airbus wanted to bring up tax breaks etc. then Boeing also wanted to talk to them about something in Toulouse. I think it was a 800 million dollar assembly building, but I could be wrong about that. Seems I remember that Airbus also got some help in the cost of the road used to transport the A380 parts for assembly. There may be more I haven't heard of.

I know I'm just beating a dead horse here. This has all been brought out before. I don't expect to convince anyone of anything. Unlike you I have taken a side. I don't know how things will end up, but I guess we will all find out in the coming months.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:08 pm

"How much does NASA/DOD buy at Boeing on a yearly basis?

I heard numbers of 20 Billion a year, 200 Billion in 10 years.."

Keesje, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about but I quote JUST a sentence from the article, "Collision Course", in the current AW&ST on pages 32-33...

"The EC puts U.S. government subsidies to Boeing SINCE 1992 at $23 billion, although industry officials will admit it's very hard to quantify the indirect support."

"20 Billion a year, 200 Billion in 10 years"? If this is a reference to the TOTAL value of ALL sales and support business Boeing may have with those government agencies, it's not a relevant number to bring into this debate because what matters is only the amount of indirect government support Boeing's Commercial Airliner division derives from contracts with said agencies vs. the amount of government loans from European governments added to any indirect aid from EADS non-Airbus sales Airbus may derive. There's NO way BCA, itself, is getting $20 billion of indirect U.S. government aid, ANNUALLY! Find a link to quantify those staggering numbers. A rather surprising post from you, given the usual level-headedness of your contributions in here.  Wow!

 
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keesje
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:37 pm

"How much does NASA/DOD *buy* at Boeing on a yearly basis?"

Please read/quote what I write..

So apart from subsidies an enormous stream of public money is streaming into Boeing via sales. A number of cases during the last few years shows these deals are often, lets say, "generous".

Saying EADS is also doing defense business is of course truth. The numbers of EC governement orders however come nowhere close to those in the US. Different magtudes.


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
N79969
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:47 pm



EADS gets "subsidies" from military contracts. Boeing gets "subsidies" from military contracts. (I do not believe these are true subsidies)

The commercial airplane division of EADS gets free or near free money. The commercial airplane division of Boeing does not. EU smokescreens nothwithstanding it's a fairly straightforward scenario.

Why do Europeans like to point out EADS profitability as evidence that Airbus is economically viable but then complete forget that Airbus is part of EADS when it is time bring up the issue of alleged back door subsidies in the form of military contracts? Very convenient memory loss?

Oddly enough they do remember that the Boeing Commercial Airplane Group is part of the Boeing Corportation. Is it just the user-friendly naming protocol adopted by Boeing? Or perhaps memory enhancing dietary supplements?

"Different magnitude? "

During the 1960s while the Soviets were out showing Czechoslovakia and Hungary who was boss, Western Europe was amazingly cutting back military spending and letting the US pick up their slack. Instead of contributing to their common defense, they decided it was better for the US to supply most of it for them and then set up some of the world's most generous social security systems for themselves.

This outraged some members of the US Congress and legislation (Mansfield amendment) was proposed to drastically reduce US forces in Europe causing many European governments to nearly soil themselves when they realized what the consequences would mean. The measure was defeated eventually chiefly because hawkish Republicans felt it would send the wrong message to the USSR and I tend to agree.

Since a big chunk of those Pentagon-purchased Boeing airplanes and weapons were deployed in the defense of Europe for the past 50 years, I think it is appalling when our dear European allies use that as an excuse to justify their aerospace job transfer program known as Airbus.

If you want a great example of a pure backdoor military subsidy that would be the A400M. It is not even a weapon that could be used to defend Europe.

Rather it is weapon that will help Airbus amortize fixed costs
 
Joni
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:12 pm


N79979,

You get, as always, warm applause for the first-grade spin you type in. In other words, you think it's okay for the US to subsidize its own aerospace sector because European countries aren't spending as much on defence as you think they should? Methinks as well that in your view it would be incorrect for European countries to spend more on defence in a way that the money wouldn't find its way to the coffers of the US armaments industry.


 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:41 pm

Re: FlyMeToTheMoon's figures

I must respond to points 3 and 4 regarding Boeing's "subsidies." If Alenia or Japanese Heavy Industry take loans from their government, it has absolutely nothing to do with Boeing. They are subcontractors and they are entitled to, really, any funding they want. Boeing couldn't stop if they wanted to. That being said, Boeing doesn't want to stop them, because those subcontractors can now design and manufacture their components faster (and in the long-run) cheaper than if they were to secure bank loans. That all saves Boeing $$$ when final assembly rolls around.

Second, the bilateral agreement applies to the United States and the EU alone. Italy is a part of the EU, so the Alenia contract cannot exceed 1/3 of the 7E7's cost (it doesn't). Japan isn't, therefore, loophole. The WTO has no jurisdiction in Japanese launch-aide, so in theory, they could subsidize every single cent of their portion of the 7E7.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
N79969
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RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:43 pm

Joni,

No first grade spin but historical facts. I think you missed my point. As it stands right now, Europe would not be able to defend itself without the US presence. It is not matter of what I think Europe "should" spend. Europe cut back to build its welfare systems and essentially was a free-rider on the Cold War aegis provided by the US. If the US had not been there for the past 50 years, the EU would not be as economically developed and integrated as it is today. Money would have been spent on guns instead of near free or free university educations.

The US government spends money on weapons. Some of that technology has commercial application some of it does not. Some companies chose to participate in commercial aviation and eventually exited. It did not matter to the US government whether defense contractors decided to use profits to pay big dividends to shareholders or expand into other business or whatever. The US did not decide it should have x percent of transport airplane market and start handing out cash. I think that is the Airbus spin.

When did I mention that I thought the EU should buy US made weaponry? But since you did raise it, if they are going to spend taxpayer money of defense, doesn't it make sense to spend it on something that actually can deter an enemy? Like the Eurofighter or advanced attack helicopter technology?

Why spend it on a military transport when you can buy one off the shelf such as the C-17? The US taxpayer has already paid for all R&D. The US buys European made equipment.

The money being used toA400M could have been used to develop something that would complement or enhance an offensive/defensive capability rather than a transport.
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:53 am


N79979,

As things stand now, Europe doesn't need the US to provide security. If the US bases in Europe were removed, there would not exist anywhere in the world a military force that could seriously threaten the EU, even in the US.

15 years and more ago, that is during the Cold War, the situation could be argued again but even there we can safely argue that the Soviets would not have voluntarily faced the British and French nuclear deterrents. Given that the US _does_ spend huge piles of money on weapons it would be a comforting thought if you could convince yourselves that the money is wisely spent - so I understand your point, but don't agree with it. The only security the NMD system buys is for Boeing's directors' retirement.

 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:41 am

Joni,

You've got to be kidding if you believe half of what you just posted.

US military dominance has even grown bigger since the end of the Cold War. So yes there exists at least one that could "seriously threaten" (God forbid) Europe. Go look up the state of European military forces. They are not in very good shape.

Do you know why the US has a continuing presence? Ever think about why? I know European leaders have a real good idea. Think about it for a while
Europe could not handle the mess in Yugoslavia with the United States. But thats not even the main reason.

Given your barely concealed contempt for the role the US has played and continues to play in keeping you safe, your "convince yourselves that the money is wisely spent" remark is not surprising. You believe in this myth that we have nothing better to spend our money than weapons. I am sure most Americans would prefer to have better health insurance and so on if we did not have to shoulder the burdens we do. We're in Europe for good reasons.

If the US left, the EU would have to sharply increase defense spending and you can kiss the "growth and stability pact" and lot of social welfare good-bye.

The next time you see a Russian ask him if they were ever worried French nukes or any French weapon of any sort.

You also seem to believe that Boeing is the largest beneficiary of US defense spending. That is not true.
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:04 am


N79979,

Just look at what's going on in Iraq, which is a dirt-poor country. The US has been unable to credibly occupy it and large parts have slipped from its control. European armed forced are designed around the concept of defending the countries in question, which comes much cheaper than forming expeditionary forces.

And I can assure you that the Russians have been very worried about French and British nukes. They're not stupid you know - the best chess players in the world come from Russia.

Barely concealed contempt? You have to be joking. Anyways, back to topic and I'm off to hone my chess skills.


 
Ken777
Posts: 10122
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:13 pm

I had to laugh. Airbus wants the money - a blind man running for the bus could have seen that one coming. Not really a big deal, except that it publicly states that the 330 is dead and will be a white elephant in the near future. If A didn't want that next billion they would simply have improved the 330.

Let's face it - A is onto a pretty good deal with these handouts. With a line, the 380 for instance, A gets to initially sell them without including any principle or interest in the price. They determine how many planes the development costs are spread over and after that amount have been sold they probably get to determine how much of the principle & interest gets paid per plane sold. A can therefore spread the R&D costs over the first 1,500 380s and sell them cheaper - and only worry about paying back the loan if they reach that magic sales level.

Dropping the 330 for the 350 may also mean that the 330 loans will never have to be repaid. Another good reason for A to play the game. the good people at A are definitely smarter than I am . . . Only the taxpayers in a few countries get screwed, but taxpayers generally get screwed so A doesn't have to worry about that.

Frankly, the original agreement was a good one at the time. Airbus was a weak little sister that needed a bit more than an allowance would cover. Little sis is, however, all grown up and people have been calling her "Big Bertha" for a while now. At some point she has to make her own way in the world or B might rightly be able to point out to prospects that A will fail if the cash flow doesn't keep coming. A cannot hold off paying all of their "loans" and, if they have to stat paying on a lot all of a sudden they may not be in a very strong financial position - especially if the 7E7 is a strong seller.

The only shocker to me was the comment about the engines for the 7E7. I had thought that the RR engines were chose because they were the best option. Now Mr. Forgeard has publicly stated that the reason was because of Japan's concerns about being sucked into the dispute. I'm sure that the good folks at RR are pleased with that comment - and that the good folks at GE will make very good use of it in other competitions.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14006
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Unrepentant Airbus Seeks Further Launch Aid

Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:46 pm


Airbus gets loans & so far has always paid them back with interest.

Boeing is not paying back what it gets.

The US gov is it´s largest customer by far.

Live with it!

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