Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
flyibaby
Topic Author
Posts: 719
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:23 am

Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:22 am

I want to clarify something to everyone posting negative comments regarding Independence Air. In the words of Mark Twain, "the rumors of my demise have been greatly exagerated." First of all, we are still in process of completing the proving runs. This is a process that can take 50 hours + and we are right on schedule for the 10/3 rollout. Most airlines take several tries before they pass a proving run (this includes all the majors) but we however are right on schedule. Before anyone decides that we are burning cash too quickly, keep in mind that we didn't expect to post a profit until 2nd quarter next year. Our oil prices? Do any of you know if we are hedged or not? I doubt it, and if you believe you do, prove it, with facts. Im sure that some of you work in the industry and some of you dont, but unless you are looking at the balance sheet and or the growth plan, you have no business posting junk information with regard to our airline. Finally if I see someone post another load factor comment, I'm going to scream. We have only been in business as Indpendence for four months now. With all 87 CRJ's running 48% isn't bad for apparently having distrubtion issues. Finally, for all of you still indignant with your false beliefs, watch the webcast on the website tomorrow with the CEO & CFO.
 
corey07850
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:25 am

So is your fuel hedged?
 
jeb94
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:19 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:33 am

I wouldn't get too worked up about what UAL employees say. They are a very hateful, depressing bunch. It shows in the customer service, or lack there of that they provide. Many of them have said similar things about Allegiant while not understanding the company. They're jealous because another airline is getting compliments from its passengers while they are not. Instead of fixing the problem they'd rather bring down everyone else. Such negative attitudes bring down customer service based companies. They'll figure this out in due time.
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 3088
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:48 am

Short, sweet and down to the point. Well said, and welcome to my respected users list!

JBLUA320
 
nearord
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:16 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:57 am

Jeb94,

Welcome to my respected user list as well.
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8317
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:07 am

Jeb94,it's really refresing to hear worlds like that.

Rgds

Mark
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:10 am

Nice way of wording things, your comment:

Most airlines take several tries before they pass a proving run (this includes all the majors

Is the furthest from the truth.

United and American, when they added the 777, passed all there runs the 1st time. Co when they added the 767 and 777, passed the 1st time. NWA when they added the A330, 757-300 (which had to go through certification) passed the 1st time.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:16 am

Back in the late 80's when Braniff Part 2 added the 737-200 it passed on the first try. Two years later the A320 was added to the fleet and passed on the first try.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
flyibaby
Topic Author
Posts: 719
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:44 am

NWAFA, FLYGUYCLT:

I'm not saying that any airline has failed, I don't think any US airline has actually failed a proving run, but as far as having to re-do any particular part, all airlines at one time or another have had to. I don't care what anyone says, EVERY airline has gone through through this at one point or another. If anyone wants to discuss this in detail, present me facts, not just opinion.
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:14 am

I'm not quite sure what purpose this thread is serving.

The proving run issue is being flogged in another thread.. and apparently has been clarified for the benefit of all.

People have and will continue to vent their joy or frustration over FlyI in plenty of other threads as well.

Finally, y'all may want to make sure you're not posting anything sensitive or protected. Sure, speculation will run rampant on this and other message boards, but it's not worth the trouble just to prove someone on the Internet wrong.

That's just my opinion anyway....
Ask why..
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:20 am

Well, I'm in the UA boat, so I am obviously not a fan of Indy Air. But I will give you this. I refuse to believe anything airline analysts have to offer, because they have been wrong so much lately that it's not even funny. According to these so called "analysts," UA should have been dead six months ago, US should have died last year, and ATA should have been bought by HP or just disappeared. Now, that aside, I still feel that FLYi's business plan will not work, and while I would like to see them make it, I just can't accept that they are doing well right now nor can I believe they can survive if they don't fix it. They are below the operating results they expected at this point, and the cash pile won't last forever. Burn me if you want, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:27 am

I think in my post I did state facts. I was there, it is not rumor.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:28 am

...and the cash pile won't last forever.

The analyst warned the carrier could slide into bankruptcy proceedings in mid-January if it misses a $100 million lease payment on its 50-seat jets.

Independence Air ended the June 30 quarter with $345 million in cash, a substantial amount for an airline its size, S&P said.

But S&P analyst Betsy Snyder said the cash position has likely dwindled significantly due to skyrocketing fuel prices - an airline's second biggest cost after personnel -- and weak ticket prices.


http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B9A31692E%2D76F4%2D4CB2%2DA55E%2D0AAB32D03531%7D
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:32 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:08 am

Independence Air is the worst airline I've ever traveled on. I wouldn't care one bit if the place went under tomorrow.
 
TechRep
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:12 am

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1794260/

As the DQC for airline that failed proving runs go to the above link and I attempt to explain it. Proving runs ALWAYS draw copious amounts of rumors so everyone chill the fuck out.

I do not work for Independence Air but a Large National Cargo Airline so I am not biased.

TechRep
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:29 am

I have yet to hear of any airline missing their proving runs; I personally doubt Indy Air will have any problems with it. I definitely second what flyibaby says, Indy is just in the transition, loads shouldn't be much of a problem once they extend the route system and continue to offer a good product at the right price to the passengers.
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
corey07850
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:52 am

Independence Air is the worst airline I've ever traveled on. I wouldn't care one bit if the place went under tomorrow.

How can you possibly say that??? Maybe they are the worst airline you've personally traveled on... But what about the thousands of employees that would lose their job??? What about all their families???

I guess people on this board get satisfaction wishing for the downfall of a company and for all the lives that will be destroyed because of it?  Confused
 
captover
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:00 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:16 pm

Flyibaby, couldn't have said it any better.
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 1999 1:55 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:25 pm

I do hope you guys survive because you have really compelling fares and frequencies - and that's been good for me and the company I work for.

However, I have a big problem with your guys' execution. I appreciate the low fares, the frequencies, the terrific branding, and the excellent in-flight experience -- however, I do not appreciate your reliability and on-time performance (as measured by DOT).

Flying for me has finally become a means to an end instead of an experience in itself as it used to be. As such, I count on flights to arrive and depart when they're supposed to, so I can have the free time I planned on.

Of the 9 DH flights I've flown, 7 have been delayed significantly. Just last night our flight was delayed over 1.5 hrs because the flight attendant was unable to be located until 1 hour into the delay. We kept being given promises that a reserve F/A would be available within 5 minutes. We got about four of those 5 minute promises before it actually happened.

On top of that, I saw a security breach in IAD's terminal A - usually there are enough agents to make sure customers don't go out the wrong boarding door. Last night, there weren't. I saw three customers turn prematurely to the wrong boarding door and enplane a dark, empty CRJ. Nobody assisted them - and in fact they corrected their own mistake, and came back. I don't know how often this happens, but I know it is somewhat of a security breach.

I-air, I like your fares and your planes. However, I hate your ground service.
no wire hangers!
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 1999 1:55 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:27 pm

By the way, United has finally started matching I-air fares ex-IND.

My next trip to IAD will be on UAX E-170s... I've had it with the delays.
no wire hangers!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:43 pm

Not to burst you "I"ndependent bubble or anything, but not a single airport manager I know takes your company even remotely serious because of a marketing rep you sent out to a conference who damn near started crying on stage while he was going on and on about the "I" in Independence. It was laughable.

You guys are toast.

Just for a re-cap:

1. You are buring through cash.
2. None of the airports you'd like to fly into take you seriously and will hold their breathe in lease negotiations.
3. You're marketing team has lost a few rivets.
4. You're not hedged. You don't have enough working capital (Not to mention your continual requests from future airports on fuel pricing).
5. You had the same proving problems when you started up DLC 328Jet ops, which delayed that start up.
6. Without DLC and a buyer for the 328's you're going to either eat that cost or start flying a third aircraft type.

[Edited 2004-10-27 08:08:04]
 
NWFltAttendant
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:41 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:44 pm

Sharpen the claws and ready the teeth.....

It seems that the last 3 days on a.net have taken things to an all time low around here. IF YOU CANNOT BE CIVIL, DONT POST ! If you have a hair up your butt over a given airline since they wouldnt hire you, TAKE YOUR TRASH ELSEWHERE !!!! Id swear that half these threads started lately are the equiv. of AOL chatrooms and posts from 13 year olds that think this crap is funny. A.net is the place to come if you can intelligently talk about the airline industry, past and present - NOT the all-you-can-eat poison trough.
Go yakkin !!!!!!
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:30 pm

test your IQ -----

how many people KNOW that the average load factor for regional airlines tend to be 40% to 55%?

Lets see, go pull some filings from Great Lakes.... Mesaba.... Pinnacle .... ACA pre I-Air days.... Gulfstream Intl.... Air Wisconsin....

seems to me that most regional airlines barely ever post load factors above 70%, sometimes well below 50%.

so why is everyone fussing over 44 & 47% load factors when we dont' know what the yield is... (although you can take a systematic guess, the probabilities of calculating IDE's actual yield per flight would take a person with a BIT TOO MUCH time on their hands).

So far, every IAir post I've seen is from people who aren't manager, aren't bean counters, aren't marketing people... i've seen pilots (how many failed airlines were ran by pilots??), flight attendants (never met a flight attendant with the title of "VP" or higher), ramp agents (ok, potential here), and customer service agents (growth potential, normally not above Corp. Training though)...

somehow this makes everyone here experts on I-Air and their demise. Financial advisors like to see their names in papers, look at Boyd. I've seen his firm's work in real life, and after reading it I thought one of YOU had written it, there was SO MUCH bad information in it & I was able to proove his report was wrong (regarded an airport in the Keys).

Why can't some of you be like Sean Mendis and learn to read & see thru SEC reports instead of what some someone says in the press, or what some media outlet may say?

Remember, United and USAirways were both supposed to be dead by now.

I'm not here to bash United or push I-Air. As a Sales & Marketing Director for another airline, I love some of their concepts and hope to see them thru. I-Air has some innovations that some airlines will never comprehend, such as how to make a crappy airplane like the CRJ more comfortable. You'll NEVER see Delta or United do that... all they care about are the thousands of dollars they loose everytime a CRJ takes off.
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
ord
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:39 pm

"I wouldn't get too worked up about what UAL employees say. They are a very hateful, depressing bunch. It shows in the customer service, or lack there of that they provide."

Interesting to note that Mike Boyd, an industry expert who used to work at several airlines and has had his own consulting firm for 20 years, says just the opposite. He consistently priases United for having some of the best customer service of any airline. He reiterated this at his annual conference two weeks ago attended by many airline CEOs.
 
voodoo
Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:42 pm

Be interestingto see which consultants have been consulted by, or worked for, which now-bankrupt airline(s). Big grin
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
mikester540
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:48 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:13 pm

Hey,
Whoever says Independence Air is "the worst airline ever" is just plain wrong. I have met some of the friendliest, and most accommodating Gate Agents, and Flight Attendants. The employees really love their company and it shows. I can’t say this for the times I’ve flown on UAL. I can’t speak for all of UAL, but for the 3 times I’ve flown them, I’ve always gotten some nasty attitudes. As for the load factor, I’m sure it will pick up during the holidays when people are looking for a cheap alternative out of IAD. So don’t go cryin’ bankruptcy yet…


Mike
We need men who can dream of things that never were. -John F. Kennedy
 
ShortsFA
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:30 am

Just look at the way they talk about my company [UsAirways] . There are a lot of things we know and also don't know. Much like our CEO and CFO. A lot of guessing and throwing out ideas. Just try to enjoy your time on airliners and take things with a grain of salt. And beleive me you are correct those who have only flown and not work with an airline have very little insight on the big picture
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 1999 1:55 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:22 am

As a Sales & Marketing Director for another airline, I love some of their concepts and hope to see them thru. I-Air has some innovations that some airlines will never comprehend, such as how to make a crappy airplane like the CRJ more comfortable. You'll NEVER see Delta or United do that... all they care about are the thousands of dollars they loose everytime a CRJ takes off.

Wow, you should learn to write like an executive then. It's lose, not loose, for the millionth time, people. Lol...
no wire hangers!
 
njintern
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:14 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:29 am

FACT - listening to the 3Q call right now.

The initial start date for the 319 service has slid.
 
blueairbureau
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:21 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:08 am

This contains no facts and no fiction. All airlines and there employees deserve the benefit of the doubt regarding themselves and their airline. The mere fact that one will throw themselves so to speak to the so called expert sharks which lurk on A.nets forums and vehemently defend their airline says a hell of alot more than any fact or fiction published here. I have defended my airline and either been ignored or judged since posting here. FlyIBaby, I may compete with you, but I respect your determination and belief in your airline. I recently did the mini evac at my company. We passed, I was choked up because it was a door opening to a successful future for my company. It wasn't just my job at stake it was my whole company and the efforts of every one there. As a former ACA employee, I wish you the best and hope to meet you in the field some day.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:34 am

SegmentKing, you're missing a big point. Indy Air is now a stand-alone airline. That means, the only money they get is what is earned through their ops. They don't get "free money" from the big boys anymore just for flying the routes. Who gives a crap if Air Wisconsin or SkyWest have low loads? They get paid the same amount for each flight no matter how many tickets are sold. The ones who get hurt by that are the majors, but it's still more cost effective to them than running their own planes (or else they would). Indy Air doesn't get that fee-per-departure anymore, they're on their own, and if they can't produce the greenbacks, then they are history. Perhaps you need to test your own IQ...
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:52 am

I think AAeagle has good loads for a regional airline, of course they aren't nearly as flooded with RJ's as many other airlines are.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5518
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:42 am

so why is everyone fussing over 44 & 47% load factors when we dont' know what the yield is... (although you can take a systematic guess, the probabilities of calculating IDE's actual yield per flight would take a person with a BIT TOO MUCH time on their hands).

Indy reported it's yield today...it was 20.9 cents. Not bad...but not great either. Look at Indy's RASM/CASM. RASM was 11.2 and CASM was 21.8!!!

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041027/dcw040_1.html

In terms of load factors, few of the major regionals have LF's in the 40's. Even in September (traditionally a weak month), most of the regionals have LF's in the 60's. During the high months, LF's for most regionals are well into the 70's.

Indy was way behind most large regional airlines in September 2004:

SkyWest 74.6
Air Wisconsin 73.8
ExpressJet 69.2
Atlantic Coast 69.0 (Sept 2003 when ACA served DL/UA)
Mesa 68.9
Eagle 66.0
Pinnacle 65.9
Comair 65.4
ASA 64.7
Mesaba 61.4
Great Lakes 45.3
Independence 44.4

So the only carrier close to Indy is Great Lakes and Great Lakes is a basket case. Plus, Great Lakes serves tiny markets with prop planes. Indy serves medium/large markets with RJ's. The two aren't really comparable.

Can Indy still survive? Yes. However, they have a lot of work ahead of them. They've already made some major mistakes in their business model (which they admitted) and they have little time to waste.

Even the folks over at Airtran (during their conference call) mentioned the problems with Indy's business model.








 
KarlB737
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:10 am

Independence Air Devises Plan To Cut Costs And Flights


Courtesy: The Detroit News

http://www.detnews.com/2004/business/0410/28/b01-318210.htm
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1874
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Indpendence Fact And Rumor

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:16 am

come to the light, IFly, come to the light!.. I knew you could do it!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos